Guest Timothy Daniels Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very large Extended partition. *TimDaniels*
Guest Juan Perez Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? Hi Timothy: The minimum system requirement for windows XP is 1.5 fo free space. The partition size depends on how many windows components you install. If you make a minimun install and you delete the temporal files that you use, in a windows update, you may find that 5Gb could be enought. But keep in mind that it will get cramped, in you browse and work with it. Also If you try to install a Service Pack, it might have not enought space to do it. Un Saludo Juan Perez "Timothy Daniels" <NoSpam@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message news:Og87z%23M4IHA.1952@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls > the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" > which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that > ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? > The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? > I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple > instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very > large Extended partition. > > *TimDaniels* >
Guest John John (MVP) Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? Seldom required nowadays but SCSI controllers without a SCSI BIOS need the SSCI driver (NTBOOTDD.SYS) on the system drive. The paging file can be moved to another partition but for a debug file it is usually best to keep a minimum pagefile of 126MB on the system drive. John Timothy Daniels wrote: > What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls > the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" > which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that > ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? > The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? > I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple > instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very > large Extended partition. > > *TimDaniels* > >
Guest Timothy Daniels Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? The size of the partition is not my concern. I'm trying to find out what *files* are needed to make a system partition - that is, a Primary partition that can be used to load Windows OSes from *other* partitions. I would like to put these files into one very small Primary partition, and then use the boot menu/loader in that Primary partition to load selected OSes from multiple OSes stored in an Extended partition. In Microsoft terminology, the small Primary partition would act as the "System Partition", and the partitions in which the OSes reside would be the "Boot Partitions". *TimDaniels* "Juan Perez" answered: > The minimum system requirement for windows XP is 1.5 fo free space. The > partition size depends on how many windows components you install. If you make > a minimun install and you delete the temporal files that you use, in a windows > update, you may find that 5Gb could be enought. But keep in mind that it will > get cramped, in you browse and work with it. Also If you try to install a > Service Pack, it might have not enought space to do it. > > Un Saludo > Juan Perez > > > "Timothy Daniels" inquired: >> What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls >> the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" >> which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that >> ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? >> The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? >> I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple >> instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very >> large Extended partition. >> >> *TimDaniels* >> > >
Guest AJR Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? Regarding "...residing in a logical drive ..." - no-can-do. A logical drive cannot be designated active/primary - as requirement for OSs "Timothy Daniels" <NoSpam@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message news:Og87z%23M4IHA.1952@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls > the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" > which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that > ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? > The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? > I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple > instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very > large Extended partition. > > *TimDaniels* >
Guest John John (MVP) Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? No, not at all. The System Partition *must* be a primary active partition but the Boot volume can be a logical drive inside an extended partition. John AJR wrote: > Regarding "...residing in a logical drive ..." - no-can-do. > > A logical drive cannot be designated active/primary - as requirement for OSs > > > "Timothy Daniels" <NoSpam@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message > news:Og87z%23M4IHA.1952@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > >>What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls >>the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" >>which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that >>ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? >>The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? >>I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple >>instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very >>large Extended partition. >> >>*TimDaniels* >> > > >
Guest michael Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? Timothy Daniels wrote: > What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls > the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" > which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that > ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? > The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? > I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple > instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very > large Extended partition. > > *TimDaniels* > > boot partition (usually C:, 1MB is enough) boot.ini ntldr ntdetect.com system partition (varies from place to place): Documents and Settings Program Files Program Files (x86) WINDOWS
Guest John John (MVP) Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? michael wrote: > Timothy Daniels wrote: > >> What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls >> the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" >> which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that >> ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? >> The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? >> I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple >> instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very >> large Extended partition. >> >> *TimDaniels* >> > > boot partition (usually C:, 1MB is enough) > > boot.ini > ntldr > ntdetect.com > > system partition (varies from place to place): > > Documents and Settings > Program Files > Program Files (x86) > WINDOWS You got it upside down. The Microsoft nomenclature defines the following: *Boot Partition* The boot partition contains the Windows operating system and its support files. By default, the Windows operating system files are in the WINDOWS folder, and the supporting files are in the WINDOWS\System32 folder. The boot partition can be, but does not have to be, the same as the system partition. There will be one, and only one, system partition, but there will be one boot partition for each operating system in a multi-boot system. Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the boot volume. *System Partition* The system partition refers to the disk volume that contains the hardware-specific files that are needed to start Windows, such as Ntldr, Boot.ini, and Ntdetect.com. The system partition can be, but does not have to be, the same volume as the boot partition. Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the system volume. John
Guest Timothy Daniels Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? "John John (MVP)" wrote: > michael wrote: > >> Timothy Daniels wrote: >> >>> What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls >>> the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" >>> which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that >>> ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? >>> The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? >>> I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple >>> instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very >>> large Extended partition. >>> >>> *TimDaniels* >>> >> >> boot partition (usually C:, 1MB is enough) >> >> boot.ini >> ntldr >> ntdetect.com >> >> system partition (varies from place to place): >> >> Documents and Settings >> Program Files >> Program Files (x86) >> WINDOWS > > You got it upside down. > > The Microsoft nomenclature defines the following: > > *Boot Partition* > The boot partition contains the Windows operating system and its support > files. By default, the Windows operating system files are in the WINDOWS > folder, and the supporting files are in the WINDOWS\System32 folder. > The boot partition can be, but does not have to be, the same as the > system partition. There will be one, and only one, system partition, but > there will be one boot partition for each operating system in a > multi-boot system. > > Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the boot volume. > > *System Partition* > The system partition refers to the disk volume that contains the > hardware-specific files that are needed to start Windows, such as Ntldr, > Boot.ini, and Ntdetect.com. The system partition can be, but does not > have to be, the same volume as the boot partition. > > Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the system volume. > > John > Right! And can a System Partition consisting of only those 3 files that were mentioned - ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com - succeed in loading and running an OS residing in another partition? And what does the Boot Partition need besides the WINDOWS, Program Files, and Documents and Settings folders? Pagefile.sys? Install.dat? IO.SYS? CONFIG.SYS? AUTOEXEC.BAT? *TimDaniels*
Guest John John (MVP) Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? Timothy Daniels wrote: > "John John (MVP)" wrote: > >>michael wrote: >> >> >>>Timothy Daniels wrote: >>> >>> >>>>What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls >>>>the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" >>>>which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that >>>>ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? >>>>The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? >>>>I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple >>>>instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very >>>>large Extended partition. >>>> >>>>*TimDaniels* >>>> >>> >>>boot partition (usually C:, 1MB is enough) >>> >>>boot.ini >>>ntldr >>>ntdetect.com >>> >>>system partition (varies from place to place): >>> >>>Documents and Settings >>>Program Files >>>Program Files (x86) >>>WINDOWS >> >>You got it upside down. >> >>The Microsoft nomenclature defines the following: >> >>*Boot Partition* >>The boot partition contains the Windows operating system and its support >>files. By default, the Windows operating system files are in the WINDOWS >>folder, and the supporting files are in the WINDOWS\System32 folder. >>The boot partition can be, but does not have to be, the same as the >>system partition. There will be one, and only one, system partition, but >>there will be one boot partition for each operating system in a >>multi-boot system. >> >>Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the boot volume. >> >>*System Partition* >>The system partition refers to the disk volume that contains the >>hardware-specific files that are needed to start Windows, such as Ntldr, >>Boot.ini, and Ntdetect.com. The system partition can be, but does not >>have to be, the same volume as the boot partition. >> >>Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the system volume. >> >>John >> > > > Right! And can a System Partition consisting of only those 3 files > that were mentioned - ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com - succeed in > loading and running an OS residing in another partition? Yes, if it's an NT type operating system, (excluding Vista and Server 2008, which do not use ntldr at all). For Windows 9x/MS-DOS type operating systems ntldr needs a copy of the boot sector (bootsect.dos). > And what does the Boot Partition need besides the WINDOWS, > Program Files, and Documents and Settings folders? Pagefile.sys? > Install.dat? IO.SYS? CONFIG.SYS? AUTOEXEC.BAT? Speaking of Windows NT/2000/XP it only needs the Windows folder and support files (the System32 folder). You can put those other files that you mention anywhere else on the disk. I'm not sure what Install.dat is but it isn't needed by NT type installations. On NT type installations IO.SYS, CONFIG.SYS, and AUTOEXEC.BAT are not needed, they are there for compatibility purposes with legacy applications only. The Autoexec.bat file can be parsed for environment variables and the variables can be included in the current user environment when Windows is started, this behaviour can be changed via a registry edit. John
Guest Timothy Daniels Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? "John John (MVP)" answered: > Timothy Daniels wrote: >> "John John (MVP)" wrote: >>>michael wrote: >>>>Timothy Daniels wrote: >>>> >>>>>What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls >>>>>the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" >>>>>which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that >>>>>ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? >>>>>The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? >>>>>I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple >>>>>instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very >>>>>large Extended partition. >>>>> >>>>>*TimDaniels* >>>>> >>>> >>>>boot partition (usually C:, 1MB is enough) >>>> >>>>boot.ini >>>>ntldr >>>>ntdetect.com >>>> >>>>system partition (varies from place to place): >>>> >>>>Documents and Settings >>>>Program Files >>>>Program Files (x86) >>>>WINDOWS >>> >>>You got it upside down. >>> >>>The Microsoft nomenclature defines the following: >>> >>>*Boot Partition* >>>The boot partition contains the Windows operating system and its support >>>files. By default, the Windows operating system files are in the WINDOWS >>>folder, and the supporting files are in the WINDOWS\System32 folder. >>>The boot partition can be, but does not have to be, the same as the >>>system partition. There will be one, and only one, system partition, but >>>there will be one boot partition for each operating system in a >>>multi-boot system. >>> >>>Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the boot volume. >>> >>>*System Partition* >>>The system partition refers to the disk volume that contains the >>>hardware-specific files that are needed to start Windows, such as Ntldr, >>>Boot.ini, and Ntdetect.com. The system partition can be, but does not >>>have to be, the same volume as the boot partition. >>> >>>Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the system volume. >>> >>>John >>> >> >> >> Right! And can a System Partition consisting of only those 3 files >> that were mentioned - ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com - succeed in >> loading and running an OS residing in another partition? > > Yes, if it's an NT type operating system, (excluding Vista and Server 2008, > which do not use ntldr at all). For Windows 9x/MS-DOS type operating systems > ntldr needs a copy of the boot sector (bootsect.dos). > > >> And what does the Boot Partition need besides the WINDOWS, >> Program Files, and Documents and Settings folders? Pagefile.sys? >> Install.dat? IO.SYS? CONFIG.SYS? AUTOEXEC.BAT? > > Speaking of Windows NT/2000/XP it only needs the Windows folder > and support files (the System32 folder). You can put those other files > that you mention anywhere else on the disk. I'm not sure what > Install.dat is but it isn't needed by NT type installations. On NT type > installations IO.SYS, CONFIG.SYS, and AUTOEXEC.BAT are > not needed, they are there for compatibility purposes with legacy > applications only. The Autoexec.bat file can be parsed for > environment variables and the variables can be included in the > current user environment when Windows is started, this behaviour > can be changed via a registry edit. > > John Thanks for the reply. It sounds like this would work, then: Create an NTFS Primary partition of about 400KB for the System Partition. Install XP to another NTFS partition of, say 30GB for XP's Boot Partition. Copy ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com from the Boot Partition to the 400KB System Partition. Mark the 400KB System Partition "active" (assuming one hard drive.) At startup, ntldr in the 400KB System Partition would get control, and the entries in the boot.ini file would direct ntldr to load the XP in the 30GB Boot Partition. Correct? Corollary: I know that I can put a clone of XP into a logical drive in an Extended partition and that I can boot it from another XP installation that acts as the System Partition. The only "trick" is to use the correct partition number in the "partition()" parameter of the boot.ini entry. But does one have to go through the procedure of installing to a Primary partition first and then cloning that Primary partition to a logical drive? IOW, can one install XP directly to a logical drive provided that the logical drive doesn't have to be a System Partition? *TimDaniels*
Guest John John (MVP) Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? Timothy Daniels wrote: > "John John (MVP)" answered: > >>Timothy Daniels wrote: >> >>>"John John (MVP)" wrote: >>> >>>>michael wrote: >>>> >>>>>Timothy Daniels wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls >>>>>>the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" >>>>>>which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that >>>>>>ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? >>>>>>The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? >>>>>>I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple >>>>>>instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very >>>>>>large Extended partition. >>>>>> >>>>>>*TimDaniels* >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>boot partition (usually C:, 1MB is enough) >>>>> >>>>>boot.ini >>>>>ntldr >>>>>ntdetect.com >>>>> >>>>>system partition (varies from place to place): >>>>> >>>>>Documents and Settings >>>>>Program Files >>>>>Program Files (x86) >>>>>WINDOWS >>>> >>>>You got it upside down. >>>> >>>>The Microsoft nomenclature defines the following: >>>> >>>>*Boot Partition* >>>>The boot partition contains the Windows operating system and its support >>>>files. By default, the Windows operating system files are in the WINDOWS >>>>folder, and the supporting files are in the WINDOWS\System32 folder. >>>>The boot partition can be, but does not have to be, the same as the >>>>system partition. There will be one, and only one, system partition, but >>>>there will be one boot partition for each operating system in a >>>>multi-boot system. >>>> >>>>Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the boot volume. >>>> >>>>*System Partition* >>>>The system partition refers to the disk volume that contains the >>>>hardware-specific files that are needed to start Windows, such as Ntldr, >>>>Boot.ini, and Ntdetect.com. The system partition can be, but does not >>>>have to be, the same volume as the boot partition. >>>> >>>>Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the system volume. >>>> >>>>John >>>> >>> >>> >>> Right! And can a System Partition consisting of only those 3 files >>>that were mentioned - ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com - succeed in >>>loading and running an OS residing in another partition? >> >>Yes, if it's an NT type operating system, (excluding Vista and Server 2008, >>which do not use ntldr at all). For Windows 9x/MS-DOS type operating systems >>ntldr needs a copy of the boot sector (bootsect.dos). >> >> >> >>> And what does the Boot Partition need besides the WINDOWS, >>>Program Files, and Documents and Settings folders? Pagefile.sys? >>>Install.dat? IO.SYS? CONFIG.SYS? AUTOEXEC.BAT? >> >>Speaking of Windows NT/2000/XP it only needs the Windows folder >>and support files (the System32 folder). You can put those other files >>that you mention anywhere else on the disk. I'm not sure what >>Install.dat is but it isn't needed by NT type installations. On NT type >>installations IO.SYS, CONFIG.SYS, and AUTOEXEC.BAT are >>not needed, they are there for compatibility purposes with legacy >>applications only. The Autoexec.bat file can be parsed for >>environment variables and the variables can be included in the >>current user environment when Windows is started, this behaviour >>can be changed via a registry edit. >> >>John > > > > Thanks for the reply. It sounds like this would work, then: > > Create an NTFS Primary partition of about 400KB for the System Partition. > Install XP to another NTFS partition of, say 30GB for XP's Boot Partition. > Copy ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com from the Boot Partition to the > 400KB System Partition. > Mark the 400KB System Partition "active" (assuming one hard drive.) You won't be able to create such a small (400KB) partition, 8MB is about as small a partition that can be formatted to NTFS. Create the small NTFS partition and mark it active right after you format it. Then create other partition(s) for the operating system(s) and proceed to install Windows on the desired partition. The Windows setup program will automatically place the system files (Boot.ini, NTDETECT.COM & ntldr) on the 8MB active partition, there is no need to make 2 primary partitions (the system files cannot be placed on a logical drive) and to copy the file over and toggle the active flag after the installation. > At startup, ntldr in the 400KB System Partition would get control, > and the entries in the boot.ini file would direct ntldr to load the XP in > the 30GB Boot Partition. Correct? Yes. > Corollary: I know that I can put a clone of XP into a logical drive > in an Extended partition and that I can boot it from another XP installation > that acts as the System Partition. The only "trick" is to use the correct > partition number in the "partition()" parameter of the boot.ini entry. But > does one have to go through the procedure of installing to a Primary > partition first and then cloning that Primary partition to a logical drive? > IOW, can one install XP directly to a logical drive provided that the > logical drive doesn't have to be a System Partition? You can install directly to a logical drive and you can then clone the installation to any other drive. There is no requirements that Windows XP be installed to a primary partition, the only requirement is that there be a System Partition and that it (the System Partition) be an active primary partition. The boot partition can be, but does not have to be, the same as the system partition. A logical drive can never be a System Partition for the simple reason that a logical drive cannot be made "Active". John
Guest Timothy Daniels Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? "John John (MVP)" explained: > Timothy Daniels wrote: >> "John John (MVP)" answered: >> >>>Timothy Daniels wrote: >>> >>>>"John John (MVP)" wrote: >>>> >>>>>michael wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Timothy Daniels wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls >>>>>>>the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" >>>>>>>which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that >>>>>>>ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? >>>>>>>The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? >>>>>>>I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple >>>>>>>instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very >>>>>>>large Extended partition. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>*TimDaniels* >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>boot partition (usually C:, 1MB is enough) >>>>>> >>>>>>boot.ini >>>>>>ntldr >>>>>>ntdetect.com >>>>>> >>>>>>system partition (varies from place to place): >>>>>> >>>>>>Documents and Settings >>>>>>Program Files >>>>>>Program Files (x86) >>>>>>WINDOWS >>>>> >>>>>You got it upside down. >>>>> >>>>>The Microsoft nomenclature defines the following: >>>>> >>>>>*Boot Partition* >>>>>The boot partition contains the Windows operating system and its support >>>>>files. By default, the Windows operating system files are in the WINDOWS >>>>>folder, and the supporting files are in the WINDOWS\System32 folder. >>>>>The boot partition can be, but does not have to be, the same as the >>>>>system partition. There will be one, and only one, system partition, but >>>>>there will be one boot partition for each operating system in a >>>>>multi-boot system. >>>>> >>>>>Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the boot volume. >>>>> >>>>>*System Partition* >>>>>The system partition refers to the disk volume that contains the >>>>>hardware-specific files that are needed to start Windows, such as Ntldr, >>>>>Boot.ini, and Ntdetect.com. The system partition can be, but does not >>>>>have to be, the same volume as the boot partition. >>>>> >>>>>Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the system volume. >>>>> >>>>>John >>>>> >>>> >>>> Right! And can a System Partition consisting of only those 3 files >>>>that were mentioned - ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com - succeed in >>>>loading and running an OS residing in another partition? >>> >>>Yes, if it's an NT type operating system, (excluding Vista and Server 2008, >>>which do not use ntldr at all). For Windows 9x/MS-DOS type operating systems >>>ntldr needs a copy of the boot sector (bootsect.dos). >>> >>> >>>> And what does the Boot Partition need besides the WINDOWS, >>>>Program Files, and Documents and Settings folders? Pagefile.sys? >>>>Install.dat? IO.SYS? CONFIG.SYS? AUTOEXEC.BAT? >>> >>>Speaking of Windows NT/2000/XP it only needs the Windows folder >>>and support files (the System32 folder). You can put those other files >>>that you mention anywhere else on the disk. I'm not sure what >>>Install.dat is but it isn't needed by NT type installations. On NT type >>>installations IO.SYS, CONFIG.SYS, and AUTOEXEC.BAT are >>>not needed, they are there for compatibility purposes with legacy >>>applications only. The Autoexec.bat file can be parsed for >>>environment variables and the variables can be included in the >>>current user environment when Windows is started, this behaviour >>>can be changed via a registry edit. >>> >>>John >> >> >> >> Thanks for the reply. It sounds like this would work, then: >> >> Create an NTFS Primary partition of about 400KB for the System Partition. >> Install XP to another NTFS partition of, say 30GB for XP's Boot Partition. >> Copy ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com from the Boot Partition to the >> 400KB System Partition. >> Mark the 400KB System Partition "active" (assuming one hard drive.) > > You won't be able to create such a small (400KB) partition, 8MB is about > as small a partition that can be formatted to NTFS. Create the small > NTFS partition and mark it active right after you format it. Then > create other partition(s) for the operating system(s) and proceed to > install Windows on the desired partition. The Windows setup program > will automatically place the system files (Boot.ini, NTDETECT.COM & > ntldr) on the 8MB active partition, there is no need to make 2 primary > partitions (the system files cannot be placed on a logical drive) and to > copy the file over and toggle the active flag after the installation. > > >> At startup, ntldr in the 400KB System Partition would get control, >> and the entries in the boot.ini file would direct ntldr to load the XP in >> the 30GB Boot Partition. Correct? > > Yes. > > > > Corollary: I know that I can put a clone of XP into a logical drive >> in an Extended partition and that I can boot it from another XP installation >> that acts as the System Partition. The only "trick" is to use the correct >> partition number in the "partition()" parameter of the boot.ini entry. But >> does one have to go through the procedure of installing to a Primary >> partition first and then cloning that Primary partition to a logical drive? >> IOW, can one install XP directly to a logical drive provided that the >> logical drive doesn't have to be a System Partition? > > You can install directly to a logical drive and you can then clone the > installation to any other drive. There is no requirements that Windows XP be > installed to a primary partition, the only requirement is that there be a > System Partition and that it (the System Partition) be an active primary > partition. The boot partition can be, but does not have to be, the same as > the system partition. A logical drive can never be a System Partition for the > simple reason that a logical drive cannot be made "Active". > > John Thanks for illucidating, John. (And thanks for continuing with the bottom-posting.) That clears up at least a couple mysteries for me. I think it would be valuable to anyone multi-booting several Windows OSes off the same hard drive. *TimDaniels*
Guest John John (MVP) Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? Timothy Daniels wrote: > "John John (MVP)" explained: > >>Timothy Daniels wrote: >> >>>"John John (MVP)" answered: >>> >>> >>>>Timothy Daniels wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>"John John (MVP)" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>michael wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Timothy Daniels wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft calls >>>>>>>>the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked "active" >>>>>>>>which can boot load XP from another partition)? I know that >>>>>>>>ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But what else? >>>>>>>>The swap file? Anything else outside the WINDOWS folder? >>>>>>>>I'm considering using a single such partition to load multiple >>>>>>>>instances of XP, each residing in a logical drive within a very >>>>>>>>large Extended partition. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>*TimDaniels* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>boot partition (usually C:, 1MB is enough) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>boot.ini >>>>>>>ntldr >>>>>>>ntdetect.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>>system partition (varies from place to place): >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Documents and Settings >>>>>>>Program Files >>>>>>>Program Files (x86) >>>>>>>WINDOWS >>>>>> >>>>>>You got it upside down. >>>>>> >>>>>>The Microsoft nomenclature defines the following: >>>>>> >>>>>>*Boot Partition* >>>>>>The boot partition contains the Windows operating system and its support >>>>>>files. By default, the Windows operating system files are in the WINDOWS >>>>>>folder, and the supporting files are in the WINDOWS\System32 folder. >>>>>>The boot partition can be, but does not have to be, the same as the >>>>>>system partition. There will be one, and only one, system partition, but >>>>>>there will be one boot partition for each operating system in a >>>>>>multi-boot system. >>>>>> >>>>>>Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the boot volume. >>>>>> >>>>>>*System Partition* >>>>>>The system partition refers to the disk volume that contains the >>>>>>hardware-specific files that are needed to start Windows, such as Ntldr, >>>>>>Boot.ini, and Ntdetect.com. The system partition can be, but does not >>>>>>have to be, the same volume as the boot partition. >>>>>> >>>>>>Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the system volume. >>>>>> >>>>>>John >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Right! And can a System Partition consisting of only those 3 files >>>>>that were mentioned - ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com - succeed in >>>>>loading and running an OS residing in another partition? >>>> >>>>Yes, if it's an NT type operating system, (excluding Vista and Server 2008, >>>>which do not use ntldr at all). For Windows 9x/MS-DOS type operating systems >>>>ntldr needs a copy of the boot sector (bootsect.dos). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> And what does the Boot Partition need besides the WINDOWS, >>>>>Program Files, and Documents and Settings folders? Pagefile.sys? >>>>>Install.dat? IO.SYS? CONFIG.SYS? AUTOEXEC.BAT? >>>> >>>>Speaking of Windows NT/2000/XP it only needs the Windows folder >>>>and support files (the System32 folder). You can put those other files >>>>that you mention anywhere else on the disk. I'm not sure what >>>>Install.dat is but it isn't needed by NT type installations. On NT type >>>>installations IO.SYS, CONFIG.SYS, and AUTOEXEC.BAT are >>>>not needed, they are there for compatibility purposes with legacy >>>>applications only. The Autoexec.bat file can be parsed for >>>>environment variables and the variables can be included in the >>>>current user environment when Windows is started, this behaviour >>>>can be changed via a registry edit. >>>> >>>>John >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for the reply. It sounds like this would work, then: >>> >>>Create an NTFS Primary partition of about 400KB for the System Partition. >>>Install XP to another NTFS partition of, say 30GB for XP's Boot Partition. >>>Copy ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com from the Boot Partition to the >>> 400KB System Partition. >>>Mark the 400KB System Partition "active" (assuming one hard drive.) >> >>You won't be able to create such a small (400KB) partition, 8MB is about >>as small a partition that can be formatted to NTFS. Create the small >>NTFS partition and mark it active right after you format it. Then >>create other partition(s) for the operating system(s) and proceed to >>install Windows on the desired partition. The Windows setup program >>will automatically place the system files (Boot.ini, NTDETECT.COM & >>ntldr) on the 8MB active partition, there is no need to make 2 primary >>partitions (the system files cannot be placed on a logical drive) and to >>copy the file over and toggle the active flag after the installation. >> >> >> >>> At startup, ntldr in the 400KB System Partition would get control, >>>and the entries in the boot.ini file would direct ntldr to load the XP in >>>the 30GB Boot Partition. Correct? >> >>Yes. >> >> >> >>> Corollary: I know that I can put a clone of XP into a logical drive >>>in an Extended partition and that I can boot it from another XP installation >>>that acts as the System Partition. The only "trick" is to use the correct >>>partition number in the "partition()" parameter of the boot.ini entry. But >>>does one have to go through the procedure of installing to a Primary >>>partition first and then cloning that Primary partition to a logical drive? >>>IOW, can one install XP directly to a logical drive provided that the >>>logical drive doesn't have to be a System Partition? >> >>You can install directly to a logical drive and you can then clone the >>installation to any other drive. There is no requirements that Windows XP be >>installed to a primary partition, the only requirement is that there be a >>System Partition and that it (the System Partition) be an active primary >>partition. The boot partition can be, but does not have to be, the same as >>the system partition. A logical drive can never be a System Partition for the >>simple reason that a logical drive cannot be made "Active". >> >>John > > > Thanks for illucidating, John. (And thanks for continuing with the > bottom-posting.) That clears up at least a couple mysteries for me. > I think it would be valuable to anyone multi-booting several Windows > OSes off the same hard drive. You're welcome, Tim. Also keep this in mind: To successfully boot an NT type operating system the system partition must have an NT boot sector. The boot sector is written to the partition when the partition is formatted. If you create and format partitions with the Windows XP setup CD, or from a Windows NT/2000/XP installation an NT boot sector will be written to the partitions. If you format with third party utilities or with a W98 setup diskette (like many form the W98 crowd often do) the partition will not have an NT boot sector and it will fail to boot NT installations. When the Windows XP setup program does the installation it will write a proper boot sector to the system partition (fixboot), but if you toy with the system partition with other formating utilities after the installation the boot sector will be overwritten and you will have to use the Recovery Console's Fixboot command to repair the boot sector. This overwriting of the boot sector is something that is sometimes seen when folks do disk work and use non NT formating utilities in a non NT environment. John
Guest Timothy Daniels Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Re: minimal "System Partition"? "John John (MVP)" added: > Timothy Daniels wrote: > >> "John John (MVP)" explained: >> >>>Timothy Daniels wrote: >>> >>>>"John John (MVP)" answered: >>>> >>>>>Timothy Daniels wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>"John John (MVP)" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>michael wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Timothy Daniels wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>What is the minimal file set that would form what Microsoft >>>>>>>>>calls the "System" partition (i.e. the Primary partition marked >>>>>>>>>"active" which can boot load XP from another partition)? I >>>>>>>>>know that ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com are needed. But >>>>>>>>>what else? The swap file? Anything else outside the >>>>>>>>>WINDOWS folder? I'm considering using a single such >>>>>>>>>partition to load multiple instances of XP, each residing in a >>>>>>>>>logical drive within a very large Extended partition. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>*TimDaniels* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>boot partition (usually C:, 1MB is enough) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>boot.ini >>>>>>>>ntldr >>>>>>>>ntdetect.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>system partition (varies from place to place): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Documents and Settings >>>>>>>>Program Files >>>>>>>>Program Files (x86) >>>>>>>>WINDOWS >>>>>>> >>>>>>>You got it upside down. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The Microsoft nomenclature defines the following: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>*Boot Partition* >>>>>>>The boot partition contains the Windows operating system and >>>>>>>its support files. By default, the Windows operating system files >>>>>>>are in the WINDOWS folder, and the supporting files are in the >>>>>>>WINDOWS\System32 folder. The boot partition can be, but >>>>>>>does not have to be, the same as the system partition. There will >>>>>>>be one, and only one, system partition, but there will be one boot >>>>>>>partition for each operating system in a multi-boot system. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the boot volume. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>*System Partition* >>>>>>>The system partition refers to the disk volume that contains the >>>>>>>hardware-specific files that are needed to start Windows, such >>>>>>>as Ntldr, Boot.ini, and Ntdetect.com. The system partition can be, >>>>>>>but does not have to be, the same volume as the boot partition. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the system volume. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>John >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Right! And can a System Partition consisting of only those >>>>>>3 files that were mentioned - ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com - >>>>>>succeed in loading and running an OS residing in another partition? >>>>> >>>>>Yes, if it's an NT type operating system, (excluding Vista and Server >>>>>2008, which do not use ntldr at all). For Windows 9x/MS-DOS >>>>>type operating systems ntldr needs a copy of the boot sector >>>>>(bootsect.dos). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> And what does the Boot Partition need besides the WINDOWS, >>>>>>Program Files, and Documents and Settings folders? Pagefile.sys? >>>>>>Install.dat? IO.SYS? CONFIG.SYS? AUTOEXEC.BAT? >>>>> >>>>>Speaking of Windows NT/2000/XP it only needs the Windows folder >>>>>and support files (the System32 folder). You can put those other files >>>>>that you mention anywhere else on the disk. I'm not sure what >>>>>Install.dat is but it isn't needed by NT type installations. On NT type >>>>>installations IO.SYS, CONFIG.SYS, and AUTOEXEC.BAT are >>>>>not needed, they are there for compatibility purposes with legacy >>>>>applications only. The Autoexec.bat file can be parsed for >>>>>environment variables and the variables can be included in the >>>>>current user environment when Windows is started, this behaviour >>>>>can be changed via a registry edit. >>>>> >>>>>John >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for the reply. It sounds like this would work, then: >>>> >>>>Create an NTFS Primary partition of about 400KB for the >>>> System Partition. >>>>Install XP to another NTFS partition of, say 30GB for XP's >>>> Boot Partition. >>>>Copy ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com from the Boot Partition >>>> to the 400KB System Partition. >>>>Mark the 400KB System Partition "active" (assuming one hard drive.) >>> >>>You won't be able to create such a small (400KB) partition, 8MB >>>is about as small a partition that can be formatted to NTFS. Create >>>the small NTFS partition and mark it active right after you format it. >>>Then create other partition(s) for the operating system(s) and proceed >>>to install Windows on the desired partition. The Windows setup >>>program will automatically place the system files (Boot.ini, >>>NTDETECT.COM & ntldr) on the 8MB active partition, there is >>>no need to make 2 primary partitions (the system files cannot be >>>placed on a logical drive) and to copy the file over and toggle the >>>active flag after the installation. >>> >>> >>> >>>> At startup, ntldr in the 400KB System Partition would get control, >>>>and the entries in the boot.ini file would direct ntldr to load the XP in >>>>the 30GB Boot Partition. Correct? >>> >>>Yes. >>> >>>> Corollary: I know that I can put a clone of XP into a logical drive >>>>in an Extended partition and that I can boot it from another XP >>>>installation that acts as the System Partition. The only "trick" is to >>>>use the correct partition number in the "partition()" parameter of the >>>>boot.ini entry. But does one have to go through the procedure of >>>>installing to a Primary partition first and then cloning that Primary >>>>partition to a logical drive? >>>>IOW, can one install XP directly to a logical drive provided that the >>>>logical drive doesn't have to be a System Partition? >>> >>>You can install directly to a logical drive and you can then clone the >>>installation to any other drive. There is no requirements that Windows >>>XP be installed to a primary partition, the only requirement is that there >>>be a System Partition and that it (the System Partition) be an active >>>primary partition. The boot partition can be, but does not have to be, >>>the same as the system partition. A logical drive can never be a >>>System Partition for the simple reason that a logical drive cannot be >>>made "Active". >>> >>>John >> >> >> Thanks for illucidating, John. (And thanks for continuing with the >> bottom-posting.) That clears up at least a couple mysteries for me. >> I think it would be valuable to anyone multi-booting several Windows >> OSes off the same hard drive. > > You're welcome, Tim. > > Also keep this in mind: To successfully boot an NT type operating system, the > system partition must have an NT boot sector. The boot sector is written to > the partition when the partition is formatted. If you create and format > partitions with the Windows XP setup CD > or from a Windows NT/2000/XP installation, an NT boot sector > will be written to the partitions. If you format with third party utilities > or with a W98 setup diskette (like many form the W98 crowd often > do), the partition will not have an NT boot sector and it will fail to > boot NT installations. When the Windows XP setup program does > the installation it will write a proper boot sector to the system partition > (fixboot), but if you toy with the system partition with other formating > utilities after the installation the boot sector will be overwritten and > you will have to use the Recovery Console's Fixboot command to > repair the boot sector. This overwriting of the boot sector is > something that is sometimes seen when folks do disk work and use > non NT formating utilities in a non NT environment. > > John > Thanks again, John. I have wondered when and by what software the boot sector was written. That also clears up a recent mystery with an Ubuntu installation - the installer kept insisting that it do the formatting even though the Ubuntu partitions had already been formatted. *TimDaniels*
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