Guest PA Bear [MS MVP] Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: ZoneAlarm Re: ZoneAlarm Start a free Windows Update support incident request: https://support.microsoft.com/oas/default.aspx?gprid=6527 Support for Windows Update: http://support.microsoft.com/gp/wusupport For home users, no-charge support is available by calling 1-866-PCSAFETY in the United States and in Canada or by contacting your local Microsoft subsidiary. There is no-charge for support calls that are associated with security updates. When you call, clearly state that your problem is related to a Security Update and cite the update's KB number (e.g., KB951748). For enterprise customers, support for security updates is available through your usual support contacts. -- ~Robear Dyer (PA Bear) MS MVP-Windows (IE, OE, Security, Shell/User) AumHa VSOP & Admin; DTS-L.net CharlieG wrote: > I see how you could reach that assumption. I was afraid that this would > be > the answer. > > Another poster seems concerned about me turning off ZoneAlarm. But on > this > FINAL machine with problems I uninstalled ZoneAlarm completely so that is > NOT a consideration. <snip>
Guest Paul (Bornival) Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released Hi, "Root Kit" wrote: > On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:04:54 -0700, Paul (Bornival) > <PaulBornival@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote: > > >I'll give a simple example where outbound control would have prevented what > >was nearly a disaster. > > Would have? - So it was a disaster? > > >One of our computer was inadvertently infected by a > >malware that used the Outlook address book of the user and start sending > >e-mails to all addressees... > > The key issue here is: > > How did this malware get in? - and why was it allowed to run in the > first place? Because that part is security related. The rest is just > damage control based on blind luck. Well, as you know, it came stupidly by someone "from outside" sending an infected e-mail before our university firewall had been updated to catch it. I agree that this was a fault, but history is full of fortresses that should never had been caught but eventually were, sometimes by very simple tricks. So, prtection from otside is good, but what do you do when the ennemy is inside ... > > > If ZA would have been installed, this would not > >have happened because it can be configured to block the sending of mass > >e-mails. > > Sure. Unfortunately, it can be configured to do a lot of nonsense. I'ma not sure about that. You can, of course, also make a lot of non-sense with many programs including ZA, but I did not see too much problems here if you are a bit careful. Conversely, the WinXP SP2 firewall is not so easy to master... (mainly because MS likes, as in many other cases, uses names different from what other people use to design well known porcessse, which is a wel known marketing trick, but this is another isssue with MS). > > >Outbound protection may not catch everythig and is not perfect, but > >why not using it if you can ? > > For the same reason you don't constantly wear a helmet just in case > someone drops something from an aero plane. See my comment above. For sure, the helmet is not the best thing, and this is why policemen also have rifles (which I do not like, but ...). > > Outbound protection (host based) is not for free. It comes at a cost > which can be hard for layman to asses. The added system complexity of > installing a bunch of potentially vulnerable code of questionable > quality and functionality and the cons that follow from that, must be > weighed against the possible pros. Can you be more specific in this. How much more resources are really needed to set up outbound protection in addition to inbound. What is the payload in terms of CPU and memory usage ? To be clear, I do not see much difference during operation between computers with and without ZA. The difference is defiitely in the booting time, but once this is over, no real difference at least for me. > You make a computer secure by removing unnecessary stuff and fixing > what is broken - not by adding further potentially vulnerable code to > an already insecure code base. Again, not usre about that. If we were to follow you, the only solution is to stop using Windows at all and moving to Linux or Apple... The problem with Windows is that its design was indeed quite open (which eventually explains its success) but also a bit irresponsible... >
Guest Paul (Bornival) Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released "Root Kit" wrote: > On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:07:46 -0700, Paul (Bornival) > <PaulBornival@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote: > > >The sucessfull attacks on WinXP computers I was were before the introduction > >of SP2. This was completely and effectively avoided after installing ZA. > > True - but could easily have been avoided by shutting down unnecessary > services, adding a simple packet filter or activating the build-in > one. - shutting down servies is nice ... but the trouble is that the MS documentatin is so poor that you never know what you really do when you shut down a service ... untill someone comes and complain that things do not work any longer as they did before... Then you realize that you better not shut down any service ... (I could luch longer about that, but, believe me, ther are so many softwares that capitalize on existing "default" Windows services that you think twice before shutting one down...). - packet filters are nice, but are you going to implement them on 30 computers with different requirements ... - the build-in firewall was so well hidden that I only discovered its existence by accident, and it was not very esay to master... I guess MS never advertised it because they knew how weak and inefficient it was. If what I say is not true, why did not advertise it ? > > >When SP2 was introduced, I compared ZA with the SP2 firewall, and found that > >ZA was eventually easier to adjust to our needs. This is why I remained > >faithfl to ZA (and I'm not the only one...). > > I wonder what your needs are. Oh simple... a workgroup with 30 computers in peer-to-peer configuration and in a very open environment (each computer ahs a PUBLIC IP address - do not ask me why, this is so - but each needs to be reachable from outside by me and a few other authorized persons...; no domain as we had no one to be its administrator and if the domain server fails, evryting fails ...). Seems crasy, but since we got ZA on all machines, we simply have no more any problem ... > >Note that turning off WinXP network services was not possible (or largely > >unpractical) given our needs of communication between computers. > > How do you expect ZA to protect services you need to make available? Well, did YOU really tested ZA ? >
Guest Paul (Bornival) Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released "Kayman" wrote: > On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:07:46 -0700, Paul (Bornival) wrote: > > > "Root Kit" wrote: > > > >> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:03:01 -0700, Paul (Bornival) > >> <PaulBornival@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote: > >>> (I did so after seeing my unprotected WinXP computers so easily > >>>attacked ...). > > Educational reading (not only for Vista users). > > Managing the Windows Vista Firewall > http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc510323.aspx I am amazed by how strongly people linked to MS state that outbound filtering is unecessary or even countreproductive. Yet, other people, not linked to MS, think otherwise. Why is it so ? >
Guest Kerry Brown Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released I don't think very many people that understand security think outbound filtering is not a useful thing to do. Many people that understand how computers work think that relying on a software firewall to stop something that is running on the same computer and has the same or higher privileges as the firewall isn't a good thing or even possible. Outbound filtering is very useful for some situations. Outbound filtering to stop malware where the filtering and the malware are on the same computer is a fool's game. For security outbound filtering is best done by something that is not running on the computer to be filtered. For other reasons, like blocking p2p traffic or messenger traffic (i.e. non-malicious traffic) outbound filtering via software on the computer works but I still prefer to do this elsewhere. Filtering like this means you are trying to restrict the user from doing something. Using software on the computer the computer to restrict the user is also a fool's errand. Anyone who has physical access to the computer and a little bit of knowledge can bypass it. -- Kerry Brown MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/ http://vistahelpca.blogspot.com/ "Paul (Bornival)" <PaulBornival@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:BC8524D9-8E8D-4B87-8BEA-6C371426A975@microsoft.com... > > > "Kayman" wrote: > >> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:07:46 -0700, Paul (Bornival) wrote: >> >> > "Root Kit" wrote: >> > >> >> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:03:01 -0700, Paul (Bornival) >> >> <PaulBornival@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote: >> >>> (I did so after seeing my unprotected WinXP computers so easily >> >>>attacked ...). >> >> Educational reading (not only for Vista users). >> >> Managing the Windows Vista Firewall >> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc510323.aspx > > I am amazed by how strongly people linked to MS state that outbound > filtering is unecessary or even countreproductive. Yet, other people, not > linked to MS, think otherwise. Why is it so ? > >>
Guest H.S. Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released Paul (Bornival) wrote: > > I am amazed by how strongly people linked to MS state that outbound > filtering is unecessary or even countreproductive. Yet, other people, not > linked to MS, think otherwise. Why is it so ? > Looks like MS does not want to invest time and resources in developing a full firewall and is thus marketing and trying to convince its users that outbound control is unnecessary. Historically, MS has wanted their OS to be used by dumb average Joe users and thus tuned its system as such. Consequently, they compromised on multiuser features, restricted user usage habits and proper computer terminology. Result: Almost all users believe Windows must be run in admin mode. They do not gain any basic knowledge about computers which is commonplace among computer technologists (MS uses its own nomenclature, as you mentioned, probably based on recommendations by marketing drones). All this leads to significant ignorance of important issues related to computer security. But to be fair, these marketing strategies also resulted in the boom of personal computer. Also, the strict control over licenses also played a very important role in making Linux what it is today: secure, open source and, these days, with better GUI than Windows in many respects. Had Windows been "open", maybe there would not have been as much impetus in making Linux distros so user friendly. I have myself seen that current version of Ubuntu is much more easier to install than Windows!
Guest H.S. Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released Kerry Brown wrote: > I don't think very many people that understand security think outbound > filtering is not a useful thing to do. Many people that understand how > computers work think that relying on a software firewall to stop > something that is running on the same computer and has the same or > higher privileges as the firewall isn't a good thing or even possible. > Outbound filtering is very useful for some situations. Outbound Here is another one: I do not like that every time I open an MS application (Word, Excel, Windows ... ), it tries to talk to Microsoft. My firewall warns me about it and I deny it. Now, I have no idea why the application is trying to phone home. Why should it? The only reason I would accept is if it is trying to find updates. Well, in that case, I would rather do that myself, thank you very much. Online help? No, don't need it. Any other reasons? Sorry, now you are invading my privacy.
Guest PA Bear [MS MVP] Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released H.S. wrote: > Looks like MS does not want to invest time and resources in developing a > full firewall and is thus marketing and trying to convince its users > that outbound control is unnecessary. No one here works for or represents MS, including MVPs. The Windows Firewall is inbound/outbound.
Guest PA Bear [MS MVP] Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released H.S. wrote: > Kerry Brown wrote: >> I don't think very many people that understand security think outbound >> filtering is not a useful thing to do. Many people that understand how >> computers work think that relying on a software firewall to stop >> something that is running on the same computer and has the same or >> higher privileges as the firewall isn't a good thing or even possible. >> Outbound filtering is very useful for some situations. Outbound > > Here is another one: I do not like that every time I open an MS > application (Word, Excel, Windows ... ), it tries to talk to Microsoft. > My firewall warns me about it and I deny it. Office Help is now online, d00d. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Guest H.S. Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote: >> Here is another one: I do not like that every time I open an MS >> application (Word, Excel, Windows ... ), it tries to talk to Microsoft. >> My firewall warns me about it and I deny it. > > Office Help is now online, d00d. Wake up and smell the coffee. Did you even read the rest of my post? Why are you snipping the relevant parts?
Guest H.S. Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote: > > The Windows Firewall is inbound/outbound. On XP Pro? Didn't think so.
Guest Shenan Stanley Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released Conversation in entirety: http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.security/browse_frm/thread/f691e0bbe3886038/b3486be8412ee2af?lnk=st&q=#b3486be8412ee2af <reference to the inbound/outbound argument parts only> This is one of those debates like *nix vs. Windows vs. OS X. Nothing is proven on any side, examples abound (some truthful and realistic from the single instance, some not so much) and nothing but emotions and egos get exposed. Personal experience and outside articles are quoted a lot. Some good for that single instance in time, others pulled from myth and legend and still others might actually hold up over scrutiny (the latter is often over-looked in the debate and glossed over at every turn by those opposed to the topic.) Ideas like "outbound only catches the stuff you already have and who says the application in question did not just change your outbound rules as you installed it so you still don't know you have it?" and "I like to know when something attempts to 'call home'" seem to cover most of the arguments. (Sound like "Windows has more security holes than other OSes" and "Macs just don't get viruses"...? Yeah - same type of arguments. heh) In the end - both are right, both are wrong. It's a personal preference. It's a way of computing, a mind-set, a need. I know many people who have ran many different OSes for many many years without a single instance of infection/infestation and they run no antivirus software and no antispyware software. They continuously (when someone finds out) get questions like "how do you know you actually don't have a virus or spyware/adware if you don't run anythign to prevent/check for it?" In the end - I just go by the idea that making things more complicated is seldom the proper course of action... Simplistic solutions are usually the most effective and the most eloquent. So which way do _I_ lean? Doesn't matter. Each person has their own reasoning behind whatever it is they do. I have used many different solutions (I do like to try things - see what I can learn and find) - and I do offer advice on the ones I tried that seemingly did their jobs without _over-complicating_ my life just to keep it working. However - I know that will be different for each person, and I cannot say which is less complicated for any one of them. Advice: Try each solution *if* this whole topic has any importance to you. All anyone here can offer is that someone practice some common sense. The world is dangerous - your computer gives you options the rest of the world does not (I cannot backup my car so that when I get in a wreck, I just reload for near instant recovery) - use them. Protect yourself when you can (Equate each of these to something on your computer: lock your doors to make it harder for intruders to get in while you are there *or* away, wear a coat when it is cold, wear sunglasses to protect your eyes, put on sunscreen to protect your skin, brush your teeth to prevent cavities, pick up 'your room', take out the garbage, cover your face when you cough/sneeze, store copies of important documents(life insurance, will, deeds, etc) far away from the originals, etc.) I know someone could pull one (or more) argument for one side or the other out of those - I could do it right now. heh The point - if the solution for everyone was obvious and one-sided - there would be no discussion. Being that each person is unique with differing experiences and external facts that help support their own experiences - the discussion is never-ending. Not one person here can definitively win their argument (even if you get rid of every actual 'crazy argument' -- although who decides that is yet another debate. hah) Interesting that a discussion about a particular patch that exasperated a problem in a particular piece of software could spawn a conversation along these lines... And the subject line stays the same through out. Amazing really. -- Shenan Stanley MS-MVP -- How To Ask Questions The Smart Way http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Guest Kerry Brown Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released That is the only reason I can think of to use outbound filtering running on the computer. Personally I'm not that paranoid about programs I install phoning home. In most cases I prefer that they do. Specifically in Microsoft's case I let it send the reports about how the program is working on my computer. These reports are anonymous and used to improve the product and fix bugs. For me that's a good thing. I do understand that some people don't think about this in the same way. In most cases this reporting can be turned off from within the program but it is often buried in an out of the way place. If this is your concern then by all means install a 3rd party firewall and use it to block this type of traffic. The whole point of my posts is not related to this. The point I'm trying to make is that one application cannot be relied on to block malicious outbound traffic from another application on the same computer. The traffic you want to block is not malicious or trying to hide in any way. -- Kerry Brown MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/ http://vistahelpca.blogspot.com/ "H.S." <hs.samREMOVEMEix@google.com> wrote in message news:e0JpJEF6IHA.4852@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > Kerry Brown wrote: >> I don't think very many people that understand security think outbound >> filtering is not a useful thing to do. Many people that understand how >> computers work think that relying on a software firewall to stop >> something that is running on the same computer and has the same or higher >> privileges as the firewall isn't a good thing or even possible. Outbound >> filtering is very useful for some situations. Outbound > > Here is another one: I do not like that every time I open an MS > application (Word, Excel, Windows ... ), it tries to talk to Microsoft. My > firewall warns me about it and I deny it. > > Now, I have no idea why the application is trying to phone home. Why > should it? The only reason I would accept is if it is trying to find > updates. Well, in that case, I would rather do that myself, thank you very > much. Online help? No, don't need it. Any other reasons? Sorry, now you > are invading my privacy. > >
Guest Kayman Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:07:01 -0700, Paul (Bornival) wrote: <snip> > - shutting down servies is nice ... but the trouble is that the MS > documentatin is so poor that you never know what you really do when you shut > down a service ... untill someone comes and complain that things do not work > any longer as they did before... Then you realize that you better not shut > down any service ... (I could luch longer about that, but, believe me, ther > are so many softwares that capitalize on existing "default" Windows services > that you think twice before shutting one down...). Disable any unnecessary and potentially dangerous Services Configure and adjust Services to suit your computing needs Windows XP Service Pack 3 Service Configurations http://www.blackviper.com/WinXP/servicecfg.htm (This can be a tedious exercise but will bear fruits later on!).
Guest Kayman Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:25:01 -0700, Paul (Bornival) wrote: > "Kayman" wrote: > >> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:07:46 -0700, Paul (Bornival) wrote: >> >>> "Root Kit" wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:03:01 -0700, Paul (Bornival) >>>> <PaulBornival@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote: >>>>> (I did so after seeing my unprotected WinXP computers so easily >>>>>attacked ...). >> >> Educational reading (not only for Vista users). >> >> Managing the Windows Vista Firewall >> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc510323.aspx > > I am amazed by how strongly people linked to MS state that outbound > filtering is unecessary or even countreproductive. Yet, other people, not > linked to MS, think otherwise. Why is it so ? > >> You are wrong! Keep on lurking and you'll see why :-)
Guest Leonard Grey Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released "Looks like MS does not want to invest time and resources in developing a full firewall..." Sheesh, they got into enough trouble for bundling a web browser and a media player. Now you want them to bundle a firewall? --- Leonard Grey Errare humanum est H.S. wrote: > Paul (Bornival) wrote: >> >> I am amazed by how strongly people linked to MS state that outbound >> filtering is unecessary or even countreproductive. Yet, other people, >> not linked to MS, think otherwise. Why is it so ? >> > > Looks like MS does not want to invest time and resources in developing a > full firewall and is thus marketing and trying to convince its users > that outbound control is unnecessary. > > Historically, MS has wanted their OS to be used by dumb average Joe > users and thus tuned its system as such. Consequently, they compromised > on multiuser features, restricted user usage habits and proper computer > terminology. Result: Almost all users believe Windows must be run in > admin mode. They do not gain any basic knowledge about computers which > is commonplace among computer technologists (MS uses its own > nomenclature, as you mentioned, probably based on recommendations by > marketing drones). All this leads to significant ignorance of important > issues related to computer security. > > But to be fair, these marketing strategies also resulted in the boom of > personal computer. > > Also, the strict control over licenses also played a very important role > in making Linux what it is today: secure, open source and, these days, > with better GUI than Windows in many respects. Had Windows been "open", > maybe there would not have been as much impetus in making Linux distros > so user friendly. I have myself seen that current version of Ubuntu is > much more easier to install than Windows! > > > > >
Guest Kayman Posted July 18, 2008 Posted July 18, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:06:50 -0400, H.S. wrote: > Kerry Brown wrote: >> I don't think very many people that understand security think outbound >> filtering is not a useful thing to do. Many people that understand how >> computers work think that relying on a software firewall to stop >> something that is running on the same computer and has the same or >> higher privileges as the firewall isn't a good thing or even possible. >> Outbound filtering is very useful for some situations. Outbound > > Here is another one: I do not like that every time I open an MS > application (Word, Excel, Windows ... ), it tries to talk to Microsoft. > My firewall warns me about it and I deny it. > > Now, I have no idea why the application is trying to phone home. Why > should it? The only reason I would accept is if it is trying to find > updates. Well, in that case, I would rather do that myself, thank you > very much. Online help? No, don't need it. Any other reasons? Sorry, now > you are invading my privacy. The situation is very simple; If you don't trust an application then don't install it in the first place! Read EULA prior installing software and if deemed to be 'trustworthy' find out reasons as to why it is phoning home. If you still don't like it disable this function.
Guest Kayman Posted July 18, 2008 Posted July 18, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:02:23 -0400, H.S. wrote: > Paul (Bornival) wrote: >> >> I am amazed by how strongly people linked to MS state that outbound >> filtering is unecessary or even countreproductive. Yet, other people, not >> linked to MS, think otherwise. Why is it so ? >> > > Looks like MS does not want to invest time and resources in developing a > full firewall and is thus marketing and trying to convince its users > that outbound control is unnecessary. > > Historically, MS has wanted their OS to be used by dumb average Joe > users and thus tuned its system as such. Consequently, they compromised > on multiuser features, restricted user usage habits and proper computer > terminology. Result: Almost all users believe Windows must be run in > admin mode. They do not gain any basic knowledge about computers which > is commonplace among computer technologists (MS uses its own > nomenclature, as you mentioned, probably based on recommendations by > marketing drones). All this leads to significant ignorance of important > issues related to computer security. > > But to be fair, these marketing strategies also resulted in the boom of > personal computer. > > Also, the strict control over licenses also played a very important role > in making Linux what it is today: secure, open source and, these days, > with better GUI than Windows in many respects. Had Windows been "open", > maybe there would not have been as much impetus in making Linux distros > so user friendly. I have myself seen that current version of Ubuntu is > much more easier to install than Windows! You are completely wrong with your assumptions. Educational reading not only for the Vista user: Managing the Windows Vista Firewall http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc510323.aspx
Guest Kayman Posted July 18, 2008 Posted July 18, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:39:08 -0500, Shenan Stanley wrote: > Conversation in entirety: > http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.security/browse_frm/thread/f691e0bbe3886038/b3486be8412ee2af?lnk=st&q=#b3486be8412ee2af > > > > <reference to the inbound/outbound argument parts only> > > This is one of those debates like *nix vs. Windows vs. OS X. > > Nothing is proven on any side, examples abound (some truthful and realistic > from the single instance, some not so much) and nothing but emotions and > egos get exposed. > > Personal experience and outside articles are quoted a lot. Some good for > that single instance in time, others pulled from myth and legend and still > others might actually hold up over scrutiny (the latter is often over-looked > in the debate and glossed over at every turn by those opposed to the topic.) > > Ideas like "outbound only catches the stuff you already have and who says > the application in question did not just change your outbound rules as you > installed it so you still don't know you have it?" and "I like to know when > something attempts to 'call home'" seem to cover most of the arguments. > (Sound like "Windows has more security holes than other OSes" and "Macs just > don't get viruses"...? Yeah - same type of arguments. heh) > > In the end - both are right, both are wrong. It's a personal preference. > It's a way of computing, a mind-set, a need. I know many people who have > ran many different OSes for many many years without a single instance of > infection/infestation and they run no antivirus software and no antispyware > software. They continuously (when someone finds out) get questions like > "how do you know you actually don't have a virus or spyware/adware if you > don't run anythign to prevent/check for it?" > > In the end - I just go by the idea that making things more complicated is > seldom the proper course of action... Simplistic solutions are usually the > most effective and the most eloquent. > > So which way do _I_ lean? Doesn't matter. > > Each person has their own reasoning behind whatever it is they do. I have > used many different solutions (I do like to try things - see what I can > learn and find) - and I do offer advice on the ones I tried that seemingly > did their jobs without _over-complicating_ my life just to keep it working. > However - I know that will be different for each person, and I cannot say > which is less complicated for any one of them. Advice: Try each solution > *if* this whole topic has any importance to you. > > All anyone here can offer is that someone practice some common sense. The > world is dangerous - your computer gives you options the rest of the world > does not (I cannot backup my car so that when I get in a wreck, I just > reload for near instant recovery) - use them. Protect yourself when you can > (Equate each of these to something on your computer: lock your doors to make > it harder for intruders to get in while you are there *or* away, wear a coat > when it is cold, wear sunglasses to protect your eyes, put on sunscreen to > protect your skin, brush your teeth to prevent cavities, pick up 'your > room', take out the garbage, cover your face when you cough/sneeze, store > copies of important documents(life insurance, will, deeds, etc) far away > from the originals, etc.) > > I know someone could pull one (or more) argument for one side or the other > out of those - I could do it right now. heh > > The point - if the solution for everyone was obvious and one-sided - there > would be no discussion. Being that each person is unique with differing > experiences and external facts that help support their own experiences - the > discussion is never-ending. Not one person here can definitively win their > argument (even if you get rid of every actual 'crazy argument' -- although > who decides that is yet another debate. hah) > > Interesting that a discussion about a particular patch that exasperated a > problem in a particular piece of software could spawn a conversation along > these lines... And the subject line stays the same through out. Amazing > really. > Well, I don't think the discussion is about a particular software per se. Rather the requirement of 'outbound control' after the introduction of NT. Jesper M. Johansson wrote educational articles about this subject extensively. It's an important security subject and the message is not easy to convey, especially if one is blinded by the hype created by the makers of 3rd party software. -- Security is a process not a product. (Bruce Schneier)
Guest Shenan Stanley Posted July 18, 2008 Posted July 18, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released Conversation in entirety: http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.security/browse_frm/thread/f691e0bbe3886038/b3486be8412ee2af?lnk=st&q=#b3486be8412ee2af Shenan wrote: <snip> > Interesting that a discussion about a particular patch that > exasperated a problem in a particular piece of software could > spawn a conversation along these lines... And the subject line > stays the same through out. Amazing really. Kayman wrote: > Well, I don't think the discussion is about a particular software > per se. Rather the requirement of 'outbound control' after the > introduction of NT. Jesper M. Johansson wrote educational articles > about this subject extensively. It's an important security subject > and the message is not easy to convey, especially if one is blinded > by the hype created by the makers of 3rd party software. Actually - if you read what I posted - this 'discussion' did start out as I stated... The subject line points this out quite readily. ;-) It "spawned" into what you are speaking of. -- Shenan Stanley MS-MVP -- How To Ask Questions The Smart Way http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Guest John John (MVP) Posted July 18, 2008 Posted July 18, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released Kayman wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:39:08 -0500, Shenan Stanley wrote: > > >>Conversation in entirety: >>http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.security/browse_frm/thread/f691e0bbe3886038/b3486be8412ee2af?lnk=st&q=#b3486be8412ee2af >> >> >> >><reference to the inbound/outbound argument parts only> >> >>This is one of those debates like *nix vs. Windows vs. OS X. >> >>Nothing is proven on any side, examples abound (some truthful and realistic >>from the single instance, some not so much) and nothing but emotions and >>egos get exposed. >> >>Personal experience and outside articles are quoted a lot. Some good for >>that single instance in time, others pulled from myth and legend and still >>others might actually hold up over scrutiny (the latter is often over-looked >>in the debate and glossed over at every turn by those opposed to the topic.) >> >>Ideas like "outbound only catches the stuff you already have and who says >>the application in question did not just change your outbound rules as you >>installed it so you still don't know you have it?" and "I like to know when >>something attempts to 'call home'" seem to cover most of the arguments. >>(Sound like "Windows has more security holes than other OSes" and "Macs just >>don't get viruses"...? Yeah - same type of arguments. heh) >> >>In the end - both are right, both are wrong. It's a personal preference. >>It's a way of computing, a mind-set, a need. I know many people who have >>ran many different OSes for many many years without a single instance of >>infection/infestation and they run no antivirus software and no antispyware >>software. They continuously (when someone finds out) get questions like >>"how do you know you actually don't have a virus or spyware/adware if you >>don't run anythign to prevent/check for it?" >> >>In the end - I just go by the idea that making things more complicated is >>seldom the proper course of action... Simplistic solutions are usually the >>most effective and the most eloquent. >> >>So which way do _I_ lean? Doesn't matter. >> >>Each person has their own reasoning behind whatever it is they do. I have >>used many different solutions (I do like to try things - see what I can >>learn and find) - and I do offer advice on the ones I tried that seemingly >>did their jobs without _over-complicating_ my life just to keep it working. >>However - I know that will be different for each person, and I cannot say >>which is less complicated for any one of them. Advice: Try each solution >>*if* this whole topic has any importance to you. >> >>All anyone here can offer is that someone practice some common sense. The >>world is dangerous - your computer gives you options the rest of the world >>does not (I cannot backup my car so that when I get in a wreck, I just >>reload for near instant recovery) - use them. Protect yourself when you can >>(Equate each of these to something on your computer: lock your doors to make >>it harder for intruders to get in while you are there *or* away, wear a coat >>when it is cold, wear sunglasses to protect your eyes, put on sunscreen to >>protect your skin, brush your teeth to prevent cavities, pick up 'your >>room', take out the garbage, cover your face when you cough/sneeze, store >>copies of important documents(life insurance, will, deeds, etc) far away >>from the originals, etc.) >> >>I know someone could pull one (or more) argument for one side or the other >>out of those - I could do it right now. heh >> >>The point - if the solution for everyone was obvious and one-sided - there >>would be no discussion. Being that each person is unique with differing >>experiences and external facts that help support their own experiences - the >>discussion is never-ending. Not one person here can definitively win their >>argument (even if you get rid of every actual 'crazy argument' -- although >>who decides that is yet another debate. hah) >> >>Interesting that a discussion about a particular patch that exasperated a >>problem in a particular piece of software could spawn a conversation along >>these lines... And the subject line stays the same through out. Amazing >>really. >> > > > Well, I don't think the discussion is about a particular software per se. > Rather the requirement of 'outbound control' after the introduction of NT. > Jesper M. Johansson wrote educational articles about this subject > extensively. It's an important security subject and the message is not easy > to convey, especially if one is blinded by the hype created by the makers > of 3rd party software. Before Windows XP what were people using? What were they using on NT4 and on Windows 2000? Just because XP got a firewall now anything else has suddenly become unfit for use? Geez, I guess next the hype will be that anything but One Care will be no good. John
Guest H.S. Posted July 18, 2008 Posted July 18, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released Kayman wrote: > > You are completely wrong with your assumptions. > Educational reading not only for the Vista user: > Managing the Windows Vista Firewall > http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc510323.aspx Ah, I see, leaving no stones unturned to convince people to switch to Vista!
Guest H.S. Posted July 18, 2008 Posted July 18, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released Kayman wrote: >> Now, I have no idea why the application is trying to phone home. Why >> should it? The only reason I would accept is if it is trying to find >> updates. Well, in that case, I would rather do that myself, thank you >> very much. Online help? No, don't need it. Any other reasons? Sorry, now >> you are invading my privacy. > > The situation is very simple; If you don't trust an application then don't > install it in the first place! I have disabled the features of softwares I have no trust in. All is fine. And no thanks to Windows firewall. But please understand that I do realize Windows firewall is much better than having no firewall at all. The MS marketing drones must have finally listened to the developers (MS has some pretty nifty talent over there) to include that when they saw Windows OSes getting powned within minutes of being installed and while being patched and getting all the negative publicity. Actually, it can still happen. It you really think about it, it is quite hilarious. I have learned from those reports and never ever install Windows with the machine connected to the internet. Now, there is no image lost due to no outbound firewall, hence no outbound firewall. It is quite straightforward. If MS was so sensitive to programmers and computer savvy people, it could have included it and switched off by default thus letting users to choose. > Read EULA prior installing software and if deemed to be 'trustworthy' find Ah, the EULA again. It makes so many things complicated at so many levels. Love open source for that though. No worries there at all.
Guest PA Bear [MS MVP] Posted July 18, 2008 Posted July 18, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released CORRECTION: > The Windows Firewall [iN VISTA] is inbound/outbound.
Guest PA Bear [MS MVP] Posted July 18, 2008 Posted July 18, 2008 Re: FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released Leonard Grey wrote: > "Looks like MS does not want to invest time and resources in developing > a full firewall..." > > Sheesh, they got into enough trouble for bundling a web browser and a > media player. Now you want them to bundle a firewall? <guffaw & chortle> Pass the screen & keyboard wipes, please.
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