Can I resell XP computers in my consignment shop without COA?

[Guest Charles Lee]

Re: Can I resell XP computers in my consignment shop without COA?

 

how does chkdsk work then, does it only check checksums... don't it write

anything at all during format routine to check working sectors for 'sticky

bits', if it don't, then chkdsk would be a waste of space too.... I was

under the impression it was thorough....

 

So far, from what your saying, the full format dont write any sector data at

all and chkdsk doesn't check for the common problem of 'sticky bits' which

all magnetic media suffer from...

 

 

you seem to think it takes ages to write zero's...????

 

whole tracks get written very quickly & the track buffer must contain data

regardless of whether its all zero's or not....

 

it's only if a program has to write to individual sectors instead of

complete tracks that would take ages...

 

 

 

here's a test for you, what do you think a 'low level format' is then....???

 

 

"John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

news:%23ByQguA6IHA.1196@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> There is nothing "definitely ridiculous" about this, none of the NT format

> utilities have ever written zeros to the hard disk and there is absolutely

> no need to zero fill a hard disk when it is formated. What was done on

> the old Atari 800 8-bit is completely irrelevant, there were no 250 or

> 500GB hard disks around in the Atari 800 days! If you want to zero fill a

> hard disk the format utility is not the right tool to use. The format

> utility can scan the disk for bad sectors without having to zero fill the

> drive. If you want to wipe a drive then use a wiping utility and then

> wait for a day and a half while the utility fills your 500GB drive with

> zeros! Even wiping a small 40GB drive (by today's standards) takes quite

> a bit of time, there is no need to bog down the formatting process with

> this unnecessary step.

>

> John

>

> Charles Lee wrote:

>

>> Thats slightly bobvious the no OS needs zero's... but....

>>

>> even on an old Atari 800 8-bit, all sectors were written to with zero's,

>> not just sectors headers.... in the days when MS wrote MicroSoft Basic

>> for the old Atari in a cartridge....

>>

>> when the proper way was to write alternate zero's then ones throughout

>> each sector to confirm a sector is reliable at being written to...

>>

>>

>> if XP's format tool doesnt even do that, thats definately rediculous...

>>

>>

>>

>> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>> news:%237zpSs$5IHA.3784@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

>>

>>>Charles Lee wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>>>or are you saying MS cannot even do a simple format tool properly...

>>>

>>>No, not at all, to format a disk is to prepare it to accept files from

>>>the operating system, all that is needed for that is that the disk be

>>>arranged in storage units (clusters) and that a file table be available.

>>>There is no need to fill a hard drive with zeros to make it available to

>>>the operating system. Would you want to waste your time filling a new

>>>hard disk with zeros? What you are thinking of is a "wiping" utility,

>>>nothing to do with formatting at all.

>>>

>>>John.

>>

>>

>>

>

[Guest Charles Lee]

Re: Can I resell XP computers in my consignment shop without COA?

 

if nothing writes anything to the sectors during format, then how can

anything tell whether a sector is good... its no use only reading a sector

header....

 

you seem to have a fixation on taking lots of time to write zero's

it would not take any longer to write the track headers than the write them

with a buffer full of anything

 

It quite obvious that chkdsk wont write zeros over data when simply checking

a disk (outside of the formating routine)

 

but to check a sector for reliability, the original data must be read, then

random data written there then original data put back & then verified thats

its the same

 

"John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

news:ef6o8OD6IHA.2064@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

> When was the last time that you wiped or "zero filled" a drive? It takes

> a long time to zero fill a hard drive. I don't know the exact method that

> Chkdsk uses to test for bad sectors but it surely doesn't write and read

> zeros or else it would wipe all the data on the drive when it checks it!

> Low level formats no longer exist, these are antiquated terms from the

> long gone days of MFM hard drives, that was eons ago, and it has nothing

> at all to do with formatting for the use of an operating system, it isn't

> and wasn't the same thing at all and quite frankly it is a procedure that

> was rarely ever required.

>

> No Windows versions has ever zero filled hard disks when it formats them,

> formatting a hard drive leaves all the data intact on the hard drive, it's

> been like that since Windows 95, and it has been like that since day one

> with the NT class operating systems. If you don't believe me then try it

> and find out for yourself! Format a hard disk then use a disk editor and

> take a look at the drive, you will see a new file table and new boot

> sector (if you change the file system type) but otherwise you will still

> see all the sectors in the data area untouched! That the formatting

> utility doesn't zero fill the drive is why it is possible to recover data

> on formatted drives, even MS-DOS could "unformat" a drive, a feat that

> would have been absolutely impossible if the data area had been

> overwritten with zeros.

>

> John

>

> Charles Lee wrote:

>

>> how does chkdsk work then, does it only check checksums... don't it write

>> anything at all during format to check working sectors for 'sticky bits',

>> if it don't, then chkdsk would be a waste of space too.... I was under

>> the impression it was thorough....

>> So far, from what your saying, the full format dont write any sector data

>> at all and chkdsk doesn't check for the common problem of 'sticky bits'

>> which all magnetic media suffer from...

>>

>>

>> you seem to think it takes ages to write zero's...????

>>

>> whole tracks get written very quickly & the track buffer must contain

>> data regardless of whether its all zero's or not....

>>

>> it's only if a program has to write to individual sectors instead of

>> complete tracks that would take ages...

>>

>>

>>

>> here's a test for you, what do you think a 'low level format' is

>> then....???

>>

>>

>>

>> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>> news:%23ByQguA6IHA.1196@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>

>>>There is nothing "definitely ridiculous" about this, none of the NT

>>>format utilities have ever written zeros to the hard disk and there is

>>>absolutely no need to zero fill a hard disk when it is formated. What

>>>was done on the old Atari 800 8-bit is completely irrelevant, there were

>>>no 250 or 500GB hard disks around in the Atari 800 days! If you want to

>>>zero fill a hard disk the format utility is not the right tool to use.

>>>The format utility can scan the disk for bad sectors without having to

>>>zero fill the drive. If you want to wipe a drive then use a wiping

>>>utility and then wait for a day and a half while the utility fills your

>>>500GB drive with zeros! Even wiping a small 40GB drive (by today's

>>>standards) takes quite a bit of time, there is no need to bog down the

>>>formatting process with this unnecessary step.

>>>

>>>John

>>>

>>>Charles Lee wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>>>Thats slightly bobvious the no OS needs zero's... but....

>>>>

>>>>even on an old Atari 800 8-bit, all sectors were written to with zero's,

>>>>not just sectors headers.... in the days when MS wrote MicroSoft Basic

>>>>for the old Atari in a cartridge....

>>>>

>>>>when the proper way was to write alternate zero's then ones throughout

>>>>each sector to confirm a sector is reliable at being written to...

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>if XP's format tool doesnt even do that, thats definately rediculous...

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>"John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>>>>news:%237zpSs$5IHA.3784@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>Charles Lee wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>>or are you saying MS cannot even do a simple format tool properly...

>>>>>

>>>>>No, not at all, to format a disk is to prepare it to accept files from

>>>>>the operating system, all that is needed for that is that the disk be

>>>>>arranged in storage units (clusters) and that a file table be

>>>>>available. There is no need to fill a hard drive with zeros to make it

>>>>>available to the operating system. Would you want to waste your time

>>>>>filling a new hard disk with zeros? What you are thinking of is a

>>>>>"wiping" utility, nothing to do with formatting at all.

>>>>>

>>>>>John.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>

>>

>

[Guest John John (MVP)]

Re: Can I resell XP computers in my consignment shop without COA?

 

I don't know the exact mechanism of how a full format (or chkdsk) checks

for bad sectors on a hard drive. That information may be available

somewhere but I don't have it and I don't know what it does when it

checks for bad sectors, I think it just tries to read sectors without

writing anything, I can tell you is that it doesn't write zeros (or

anything else) to the drive.

 

All I can tell you is that a full format does not write zeros to the

drive and that it leaves ALL the data on the disk UNTOUCHED! You don't

have to believe me if you don't want to, that is fine by me, but maybe

you will believe it if you get the information from a data recovery company:

 

Q: Can I recover data from a formatted disk?

http://www.easeus-photorecovery.com/docs/faq/Can-I-recover-data-from-a-formatted-disk.html

 

John

 

Charles Lee wrote:

> if nothing writes anything to the sectors during format, then how can

> anything tell whether a sector is good... its no use only reading a sector

> header....

>

> you seem to have a fixation on taking lots of time to write zero's

> it would not take any longer to write the track headers than the write them

> with a buffer full of anything

>

> It quite obvious that chkdsk wont write zeros over data when simply checking

> a disk (outside of the formating routine)

>

> but to check a sector for reliability, the original data must be read, then

> random data written there then original data put back & then verified thats

> its the same

>

> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

> news:ef6o8OD6IHA.2064@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>

>>When was the last time that you wiped or "zero filled" a drive? It takes

>>a long time to zero fill a hard drive. I don't know the exact method that

>>Chkdsk uses to test for bad sectors but it surely doesn't write and read

>>zeros or else it would wipe all the data on the drive when it checks it!

>>Low level formats no longer exist, these are antiquated terms from the

>>long gone days of MFM hard drives, that was eons ago, and it has nothing

>>at all to do with formatting for the use of an operating system, it isn't

>>and wasn't the same thing at all and quite frankly it is a procedure that

>>was rarely ever required.

>>

>>No Windows versions has ever zero filled hard disks when it formats them,

>>formatting a hard drive leaves all the data intact on the hard drive, it's

>>been like that since Windows 95, and it has been like that since day one

>>with the NT class operating systems. If you don't believe me then try it

>>and find out for yourself! Format a hard disk then use a disk editor and

>>take a look at the drive, you will see a new file table and new boot

>>sector (if you change the file system type) but otherwise you will still

>>see all the sectors in the data area untouched! That the formatting

>>utility doesn't zero fill the drive is why it is possible to recover data

>>on formatted drives, even MS-DOS could "unformat" a drive, a feat that

>>would have been absolutely impossible if the data area had been

>>overwritten with zeros.

>>

>>John

>>

>>Charles Lee wrote:

>>

>>

>>>how does chkdsk work then, does it only check checksums... don't it write

>>>anything at all during format to check working sectors for 'sticky bits',

>>>if it don't, then chkdsk would be a waste of space too.... I was under

>>>the impression it was thorough....

>>>So far, from what your saying, the full format dont write any sector data

>>>at all and chkdsk doesn't check for the common problem of 'sticky bits'

>>>which all magnetic media suffer from...

>>>

>>>

>>>you seem to think it takes ages to write zero's...????

>>>

>>>whole tracks get written very quickly & the track buffer must contain

>>>data regardless of whether its all zero's or not....

>>>

>>>it's only if a program has to write to individual sectors instead of

>>>complete tracks that would take ages...

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>here's a test for you, what do you think a 'low level format' is

>>>then....???

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>"John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>>>news:%23ByQguA6IHA.1196@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>>

>>>

>>>>There is nothing "definitely ridiculous" about this, none of the NT

>>>>format utilities have ever written zeros to the hard disk and there is

>>>>absolutely no need to zero fill a hard disk when it is formated. What

>>>>was done on the old Atari 800 8-bit is completely irrelevant, there were

>>>>no 250 or 500GB hard disks around in the Atari 800 days! If you want to

>>>>zero fill a hard disk the format utility is not the right tool to use.

>>>>The format utility can scan the disk for bad sectors without having to

>>>>zero fill the drive. If you want to wipe a drive then use a wiping

>>>>utility and then wait for a day and a half while the utility fills your

>>>>500GB drive with zeros! Even wiping a small 40GB drive (by today's

>>>>standards) takes quite a bit of time, there is no need to bog down the

>>>>formatting process with this unnecessary step.

>>>>

>>>>John

>>>>

>>>>Charles Lee wrote:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>Thats slightly bobvious the no OS needs zero's... but....

>>>>>

>>>>>even on an old Atari 800 8-bit, all sectors were written to with zero's,

>>>>>not just sectors headers.... in the days when MS wrote MicroSoft Basic

>>>>>for the old Atari in a cartridge....

>>>>>

>>>>>when the proper way was to write alternate zero's then ones throughout

>>>>>each sector to confirm a sector is reliable at being written to...

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>if XP's format tool doesnt even do that, thats definately rediculous...

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>"John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>>>>>news:%237zpSs$5IHA.3784@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>>Charles Lee wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>or are you saying MS cannot even do a simple format tool properly...

>>>>>>

>>>>>>No, not at all, to format a disk is to prepare it to accept files from

>>>>>>the operating system, all that is needed for that is that the disk be

>>>>>>arranged in storage units (clusters) and that a file table be

>>>>>>available. There is no need to fill a hard drive with zeros to make it

>>>>>>available to the operating system. Would you want to waste your time

>>>>>>filling a new hard disk with zeros? What you are thinking of is a

>>>>>>"wiping" utility, nothing to do with formatting at all.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>John.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>

>

>

[Guest jho]

Re: Can I resell XP computers in my consignment shop without COA?

 

On Jul 18, 12:53 pm, "John John (MVP)" <audetw...@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:

> I don't know the exact mechanism of how a full format (or chkdsk) checks

> for bad sectors on a hard drive.  That information may be available

> somewhere but I don't have it and I don't know what it does when it

> checks for bad sectors, I think it just tries to read sectors without

> writing anything, I can tell you is that it doesn't write zeros (or

> anything else) to the drive.

>

> All I can tell you is that a full format does not write zeros to the

> drive and that it leaves ALL the data on the disk UNTOUCHED!  You don't

> have to believe me if you don't want to, that is fine by me, but maybe

> you will believe it if you get the information from a data recovery company:

>

> Q: Can I recover data from a formatted disk?http://www.easeus-photorecovery.com/docs/faq/Can-I-recover-data-from-...

>

> John

>

>

>

> Charles Lee wrote:

> > if nothing writes anything to the sectors during format, then how can

> > anything tell whether a sector is good... its no use only reading a sector

> > header....

>

> > you seem to have a fixation on taking lots of time to write zero's

> > it would not take any longer to write the track headers than the write them

> > with a buffer full of anything

>

> > It quite obvious that chkdsk wont write zeros over data when simply checking

> > a disk (outside of the formating routine)

>

> > but to check a sector for reliability, the original data must be read, then

> > random data written there then original data put back & then verified thats

> > its the same

>

> > "John John (MVP)" <audetw...@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

> >news:ef6o8OD6IHA.2064@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>

> >>When was the last time that you wiped or "zero filled" a drive?  It takes

> >>a long time to zero fill a hard drive.  I don't know the exact method that

> >>Chkdsk uses to test for bad sectors but it surely doesn't write and read

> >>zeros or else it would wipe all the data on the drive when it checks it!

> >>Low level formats no longer exist, these are antiquated terms from the

> >>long gone days of MFM hard drives, that was eons ago, and it has nothing

> >>at all to do with formatting for the use of an operating system, it isn't

> >>and wasn't the same thing at all and quite frankly it is a procedure that

> >>was rarely ever required.

>

> >>No Windows versions has ever zero filled hard disks when it formats them,

> >>formatting a hard drive leaves all the data intact on the hard drive, it's

> >>been like that since Windows 95, and it has been like that since day one

> >>with the NT class operating systems.  If you don't believe me then try it

> >>and find out for yourself!  Format a hard disk then use a disk editor and

> >>take a look at the drive, you will see a new file table and new boot

> >>sector (if you change the file system type) but otherwise you will still

> >>see all the sectors in the data area untouched!  That the formatting

> >>utility doesn't zero fill the drive is why it is possible to recover data

> >>on formatted drives, even MS-DOS could "unformat" a drive, a feat that

> >>would have been absolutely impossible if the data area had been

> >>overwritten with zeros.

>

> >>John

>

> >>Charles Lee wrote:

>

> >>>how does chkdsk work then, does it only check checksums... don't it write

> >>>anything at all during format to check working sectors for 'sticky bits',

> >>>if it don't, then chkdsk would be a waste of space too.... I was under

> >>>the impression it was thorough....

> >>>So far, from what your saying, the full format dont write any sector data

> >>>at all and chkdsk doesn't check for the common problem of 'sticky bits'

> >>>which all magnetic media suffer from...

>

> >>>you seem to think it takes ages to write zero's...????

>

> >>>whole tracks get written very quickly & the track buffer must contain

> >>>data regardless of whether its all zero's or not....

>

> >>>it's only if a program has to write to individual sectors instead of

> >>>complete tracks that would take ages...

>

> >>>here's a test for you, what do you think a 'low level format' is

> >>>then....???

>

> >>>"John John (MVP)" <audetw...@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

> >>>news:%23ByQguA6IHA.1196@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>

> >>>>There is nothing "definitely ridiculous" about this, none of the NT

> >>>>format utilities have ever written zeros to the hard disk and there is

> >>>>absolutely no need to zero fill a hard disk when it is formated.  What

> >>>>was done on the old Atari 800 8-bit is completely irrelevant, there were

> >>>>no 250 or 500GB hard disks around in the Atari 800 days!  If you want to

> >>>>zero fill a hard disk the format utility is not the right tool to use..

> >>>>The format utility can scan the disk for bad sectors without having to

> >>>>zero fill the drive.  If you want to wipe a drive then use a wiping

> >>>>utility and then wait for a day and a half while the utility fills your

> >>>>500GB drive with zeros!  Even wiping a small 40GB drive (by today's

> >>>>standards) takes quite a bit of time, there is no need to bog down the

> >>>>formatting process with this unnecessary step.

>

> >>>>John

>

> >>>>Charles Lee wrote:

>

> >>>>>Thats slightly bobvious the no OS needs zero's... but....

>

> >>>>>even on an old Atari 800 8-bit, all sectors were written to with zero's,

> >>>>>not just sectors headers.... in the days when MS wrote MicroSoft Basic

> >>>>>for the old Atari in a cartridge....

>

> >>>>>when the proper way was to write alternate zero's then ones throughout

> >>>>>each sector to confirm a sector is reliable at being written to...

>

> >>>>>if XP's format tool doesnt even do that, thats definately rediculous....

>

> >>>>>"John John (MVP)" <audetw...@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

> >>>>>news:%237zpSs$5IHA.3784@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

>

> >>>>>>Charles Lee wrote:

>

> >>>>>>>or are you saying MS cannot even do a simple format tool properly....

>

> >>>>>>No, not at all, to format a disk is to prepare it to accept files from

> >>>>>>the operating system, all that is needed for that is that the disk be

> >>>>>>arranged in storage units (clusters) and that a file table be

> >>>>>>available. There is no need to fill a hard drive with zeros to make it

> >>>>>>available to the operating system.  Would you want to waste your time

> >>>>>>filling a new hard disk with zeros?  What you are thinking of is a

> >>>>>>"wiping" utility, nothing to do with formatting at all.

>

> >>>>>>John.- Hide quoted text -

>

> - Show quoted text -

 

Wow this post made it to two pages. I'm so proud of myself.

"Can't we all just format along"

Thanks everyone it's been a really great time.