SP3 and CCleaner

[Guest AliceZ]

I just installed SP3 on my notebook and desktop.

When I run CCleaner Registry section, I notice many entries there.

 

Can they ALL be deleted?

 

(Most of the are: Problem: Uninstaller reference issue KB931784 (many

different KBs mentioned.

Register Key: HKLM\Software\MicrosoftWindows\CurrentVersion\App

Management\App Management\ARpCache\KB931784....)

[Guest Thee Chicago Wolf]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

>I just installed SP3 on my notebook and desktop.

>When I run CCleaner Registry section, I notice many entries there.

>

>Can they ALL be deleted?

>

>(Most of the are: Problem: Uninstaller reference issue KB931784 (many

>different KBs mentioned.

>Register Key: HKLM\Software\MicrosoftWindows\CurrentVersion\App

>Management\App Management\ARpCache\KB931784....)

 

SP3 will remove any and ALL old Windows Updates and hotfixes since

what's in SP3 is newer than the old stuff. You can safely delete them

but use CC's backup feature before doing so in case anything odd

happens.

 

- Thee Chicago Wolf

[Guest Peter Foldes]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

And what happens if the system cannot boot to get to the backups ????

 

Registry Cleaners are all snake oil remedies in short. In long check

 

http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099 and you make up your own mind

 

--

Peter

 

Please Reply to Newsgroup for the benefit of others

Requests for assistance by email can not and will not be acknowledged.

 

"Thee Chicago Wolf" <.@.> wrote in message news:dkgu841htvuae3b5s15ats4fakbh8aesl3@4ax.com...

> >I just installed SP3 on my notebook and desktop.

>>When I run CCleaner Registry section, I notice many entries there.

>>

>>Can they ALL be deleted?

>>

>>(Most of the are: Problem: Uninstaller reference issue KB931784 (many

>>different KBs mentioned.

>>Register Key: HKLM\Software\MicrosoftWindows\CurrentVersion\App

>>Management\App Management\ARpCache\KB931784....)

>

> SP3 will remove any and ALL old Windows Updates and hotfixes since

> what's in SP3 is newer than the old stuff. You can safely delete them

> but use CC's backup feature before doing so in case anything odd

> happens.

>

> - Thee Chicago Wolf

[Guest cavelamb himself]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

Peter Foldes wrote:

> And what happens if the system cannot boot to get to the backups ????

>

> Registry Cleaners are all snake oil remedies in short. In long check

>

> http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099 and you make up your own mind

>

 

That site address is not Microsoft.

 

How is one supposed to know it if can be trusted or not?

 

 

--

 

Richard

 

(remove the X to email)

[Guest Galen Somerville]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

 

"cavelamb himself" <cavelamb@Xearthlink.net> wrote in message

news:itSdncJ6O8HS8BLVnZ2dnUVZ_q7inZ2d@earthlink.com...

> Peter Foldes wrote:

>> And what happens if the system cannot boot to get to the backups ????

>>

>> Registry Cleaners are all snake oil remedies in short. In long check

>>

>> http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099 and you make up your own mind

>>

>

> That site address is not Microsoft.

>

> How is one supposed to know it if can be trusted or not?

>

>

> --

>

> Richard

>

> (remove the X to email)

 

That must mean that you trust Microsoft !!

 

Galen

[Guest Ken Blake, MVP]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:19:33 -0500, cavelamb himself

<cavelamb@Xearthlink.net> wrote:

> Peter Foldes wrote:

> > And what happens if the system cannot boot to get to the backups ????

> >

> > Registry Cleaners are all snake oil remedies in short. In long check

> >

> > http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099 and you make up your own mind

> >

>

> That site address is not Microsoft.

>

> How is one supposed to know it if can be trusted or not?

 

 

Regardless of whether it's Microsoft or not, it's simply a forum (but

a well-known and well-respected one). A forum has posts by many

different people, and different people can have widely different

levels of expertise and widely different opinions.

 

So it's not a matter of whether it can be trusted. The link is to a

discussion on that forum where there are many opinions stated, and

information to back them up. It's up to you to read those statements,

decide what views you agree with, and make your own decisions about

what to do, just as it is here in the Windows XP newsgroups.

 

Most of the views in http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099 are

strongly against using registry cleaners, as is my own view. I know

and respect many of those who have put forward that view there, and

their views have in part shaped my own on this issue.

 

So ultimately, the choice of what to do is up to you. But the more

information you have, and the better information you have, on the

subject, the better a decision you can make. So reading the views both

in http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099 and here can help you

decide.

 

--

Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience

Please Reply to the Newsgroup

[Guest PA Bear [MS MVP]]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

Also see:

 

Why I don't use registry cleaners | Ed Bott's Windows Expertise

http://www.edbott.com/weblog/archives/000643.html

--

~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)

MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002

AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net

DTS-L http://dts-l.net/

 

 

Peter Foldes wrote:

> And what happens if the system cannot boot to get to the backups ????

>

> Registry Cleaners are all snake oil remedies in short. In long check

>

> http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099 and you make up your own mind

>

>

> "Thee Chicago Wolf" <.@.> wrote in message

> news:dkgu841htvuae3b5s15ats4fakbh8aesl3@4ax.com...

>>> I just installed SP3 on my notebook and desktop.

>>> When I run CCleaner Registry section, I notice many entries there.

>>>

>>> Can they ALL be deleted?

>>>

>>> (Most of the are: Problem: Uninstaller reference issue KB931784 (many

>>> different KBs mentioned.

>>> Register Key: HKLM\Software\MicrosoftWindows\CurrentVersion\App

>>> Management\App Management\ARpCache\KB931784....)

>>

>> SP3 will remove any and ALL old Windows Updates and hotfixes since

>> what's in SP3 is newer than the old stuff. You can safely delete them

>> but use CC's backup feature before doing so in case anything odd

>> happens.

>>

>> - Thee Chicago Wolf

[Guest cavelamb himself]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

Galen Somerville wrote:

> "cavelamb himself" <cavelamb@Xearthlink.net> wrote in message

> news:itSdncJ6O8HS8BLVnZ2dnUVZ_q7inZ2d@earthlink.com...

>

>>Peter Foldes wrote:

>>

>>>And what happens if the system cannot boot to get to the backups ????

>>>

>>>Registry Cleaners are all snake oil remedies in short. In long check

>>>

>>>http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099 and you make up your own mind

>>>

>>

>>That site address is not Microsoft.

>>

>>How is one supposed to know it if can be trusted or not?

>>

>>

>>--

>>

>>Richard

>>

>>(remove the X to email)

>

>

> That must mean that you trust Microsoft !!

>

> Galen

>

>

 

 

Lol! Well you got me there.

 

No, I'm just worried about bogus stuff getting into my computer from

the net.

 

I don't claim any real deep knowledge about internet stuff - but the

horror stories are all pretty bad.

 

So how does one actually know what a downloaded program really does

without downloading and running it???

 

Color me timid there.

 

--

 

Richard

 

(remove the X to email)

[Guest Bruce Chambers]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

AliceZ wrote:

> I just installed SP3 on my notebook and desktop.

> When I run CCleaner Registry section, I notice many entries there.

>

 

 

Yes. and they're all almosdt certainly false alarms. Leave them alone.

 

> Can they ALL be deleted?

>

 

 

Only if you want to risk tanking your computer.

 

CCleaner is worthless as a registry cleaner. I tried the latest

version on a brand-new OS installation with no additional applications

installed, and certainly none installed and then uninstalled, and

CCleaner still managed to "find" over a hundred allegedly orphaned

registry entries and dozens of purportedly "suspicious" files, making it

clearly a *worthless* product, in this regard. (Not that any registry

cleaner can ever be anything but worthless, as they don't serve any

*useful* purpose, to start with.)

 

 

--

 

Bruce Chambers

 

Help us help you:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

 

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/555375

 

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary

safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

 

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell

 

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has

killed a great many philosophers.

~ Denis Diderot

[Guest Thee Chicago Wolf]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

>And what happens if the system cannot boot to get to the backups ????

>

>Registry Cleaners are all snake oil remedies in short. In long check

>

>http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099 and you make up your own mind

 

With all due respect, the author over at Auhuma is not the last word

on the matter and one could start a thread months long on the matter

of registry cleaning.. I consider CCleaner to be light on the cleaning

as compared to something such as JV16. CCleaner is a good tool and if

someone doesn't want to use it, that's fine. I wouldn't recommend a

tool to someone that would purposely hose their system and CCleaner is

pretty fool-proof and I've not heard of any instances of it rendering

a system unbootable due to a registry clean. The fact of the matter

is, in an ideal world, software vendors / writers would uninstall ALL

their junk clean and not leave a trace but this is isn't an ideal

world and things always get left behind.

 

I don't agree that CCleaner is snake oil and removing junk from the

registry will somehow cause global warming or mass chaos. Here's my

personal testimonial to what a great tool CCleaner is. My neighbor's

PC was horribly infested with all sorts of malware / trojans / spyware

/ etc. due to their kids. When it was fully infested, it took *30

minutes* to boot to the desktop. Any program took 20 minutes to load.

Ultimately, I had to remove the hard drive and disinfect it on clean

PC. It took a full day to clean everything off. After putting the

drive back into the computer, it took 20 minutes to boot.

 

One bug in there was called IEfilter and it created a key in EVERY

SINGLE ENTRY in HKey_Classes_Root. I ran CCleaner on the computer for

48 hours straight and it cleaned out no less than 600000+ entries of

IEFilter.dll in the registry Afterwards, the computer booted to

desktop in 30-40 seconds and programs loaded quickly, as they should.

 

I've been at this for 18+ years and have never, ever seen such an

infested computer, much less one that could be successfully cleaned.

I've seen many registry cleaners come and go in that time period and I

do trust CCleaner. Snake oil my posterior.

 

- Thee Chicago Wolf

[Guest Gary S. Terhune]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

Snake oil it is, and will ever be. You don't need CCleaner to delete all

instances of such & such from the Registry, just a decent Registry editing

tool.

 

And people who come here looking for advice, average users for the most part

and not capable of discerning the difference between HKLM and HKCU, much

less what wxyz.dll is and whether it's a good idea to remove it, get

regularly sucked in by these scams, especially when they come recommended in

these groups (they're also usually too flustered to pay much attention to

the fact that *anybody* can give *any* answer here, and they're in a hurry

so they do it all without realizing what potential disaster lies that way,

and *do* end up with a hosed system.

 

I've seen THAT many, many, many (keep counting.... no, keep counting....)

 

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

 

"Thee Chicago Wolf" <.@.> wrote in message

news:rhiv84hsghglicu9jlset91h8rulo62jp5@4ax.com...

> >And what happens if the system cannot boot to get to the backups ????

>>

>>Registry Cleaners are all snake oil remedies in short. In long check

>>

>>http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099 and you make up your own mind

>

> With all due respect, the author over at Auhuma is not the last word

> on the matter and one could start a thread months long on the matter

> of registry cleaning.. I consider CCleaner to be light on the cleaning

> as compared to something such as JV16. CCleaner is a good tool and if

> someone doesn't want to use it, that's fine. I wouldn't recommend a

> tool to someone that would purposely hose their system and CCleaner is

> pretty fool-proof and I've not heard of any instances of it rendering

> a system unbootable due to a registry clean. The fact of the matter

> is, in an ideal world, software vendors / writers would uninstall ALL

> their junk clean and not leave a trace but this is isn't an ideal

> world and things always get left behind.

>

> I don't agree that CCleaner is snake oil and removing junk from the

> registry will somehow cause global warming or mass chaos. Here's my

> personal testimonial to what a great tool CCleaner is. My neighbor's

> PC was horribly infested with all sorts of malware / trojans / spyware

> / etc. due to their kids. When it was fully infested, it took *30

> minutes* to boot to the desktop. Any program took 20 minutes to load.

> Ultimately, I had to remove the hard drive and disinfect it on clean

> PC. It took a full day to clean everything off. After putting the

> drive back into the computer, it took 20 minutes to boot.

>

> One bug in there was called IEfilter and it created a key in EVERY

> SINGLE ENTRY in HKey_Classes_Root. I ran CCleaner on the computer for

> 48 hours straight and it cleaned out no less than 600000+ entries of

> IEFilter.dll in the registry Afterwards, the computer booted to

> desktop in 30-40 seconds and programs loaded quickly, as they should.

>

> I've been at this for 18+ years and have never, ever seen such an

> infested computer, much less one that could be successfully cleaned.

> I've seen many registry cleaners come and go in that time period and I

> do trust CCleaner. Snake oil my posterior.

>

> - Thee Chicago Wolf

[Guest Kayman]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:27:55 -0500, Thee Chicago Wolf wrote:

>>And what happens if the system cannot boot to get to the backups ????

>>

>>Registry Cleaners are all snake oil remedies in short. In long check

>>

>>http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099 and you make up your own mind

>

> With all due respect, the author over at Auhuma is not the last word

> on the matter and one could start a thread months long on the matter

> of registry cleaning.. I consider CCleaner to be light on the cleaning

> as compared to something such as JV16. CCleaner is a good tool and if

> someone doesn't want to use it, that's fine. I wouldn't recommend a

> tool to someone that would purposely hose their system and CCleaner is

> pretty fool-proof and I've not heard of any instances of it rendering

> a system unbootable due to a registry clean. The fact of the matter

> is, in an ideal world, software vendors / writers would uninstall ALL

> their junk clean and not leave a trace but this is isn't an ideal

> world and things always get left behind.

>

> I don't agree that CCleaner is snake oil and removing junk from the

> registry will somehow cause global warming or mass chaos. Here's my

> personal testimonial to what a great tool CCleaner is. My neighbor's

> PC was horribly infested with all sorts of malware / trojans / spyware

> / etc. due to their kids. When it was fully infested, it took *30

> minutes* to boot to the desktop. Any program took 20 minutes to load.

> Ultimately, I had to remove the hard drive and disinfect it on clean

> PC. It took a full day to clean everything off. After putting the

> drive back into the computer, it took 20 minutes to boot.

>

> One bug in there was called IEfilter and it created a key in EVERY

> SINGLE ENTRY in HKey_Classes_Root. I ran CCleaner on the computer for

> 48 hours straight and it cleaned out no less than 600000+ entries of

> IEFilter.dll in the registry Afterwards, the computer booted to

> desktop in 30-40 seconds and programs loaded quickly, as they should.

>

> I've been at this for 18+ years and have never, ever seen such an

> infested computer, much less one that could be successfully cleaned.

> I've seen many registry cleaners come and go in that time period and I

> do trust CCleaner. Snake oil my posterior.

>

 

Well TCW, why did you as an experienced user even bother cleaning that

(*"horribly infested"*) PC?

 

"The only way to clean a compromised system is to flatten and rebuild.

That¢s right. If you have a system that has been completely compromised,

the only thing you can do is to flatten the system (reformat the system

disk) and rebuild it from scratch (re-install Windows and your

applications)..."

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/community/columns/secmgmt/sm0504.mspx

[Guest Thee Chicago Wolf]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

>Well TCW, why did you as an experienced user even bother cleaning that

>(*"horribly infested"*) PC?

 

Because 1) I like a challenge, 2) I *learn* from what these

infestations do so that I can devise a better resolution strategy in

the future, and 3) because I charge money for it?

>"The only way to clean a compromised system is to flatten and rebuild.

>That’s right. If you have a system that has been completely compromised,

>the only thing you can do is to flatten the system (reformat the system

>disk) and rebuild it from scratch (re-install Windows and your

>applications)..."

>http://www.microsoft.com/technet/community/columns/secmgmt/sm0504.mspx

 

Obviously the *only* way, according to you, was not the only way. I'd

much rather educate users, secure their computers, and retain all of

their data. Sure I could have wiped their system, but that's the lazy

person's solution and is always the last resort. I would have been

back in 3 months doing the same thing all over again.

 

Had I not known, through this experience, that it was just a matter of

dejunking the registry of orphaned entries to bring the computer back

to its OOB performance, I would have recommended a clean wipe, which I

did. I stand by my word and experience.

 

- Thee Chicago Wolf

[Guest Thee Chicago Wolf]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

>Snake oil it is, and will ever be. You don't need CCleaner to delete all

>instances of such & such from the Registry, just a decent Registry editing

>tool.

 

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I just don't agree with

you. People with no experience using CCleaner are it's biggest

critics. What registry tool are you referring to if I may ask? The

most decent registry editing tool is regedit and regedt32.

>And people who come here looking for advice, average users for the most part

>and not capable of discerning the difference between HKLM and HKCU, much

>less what wxyz.dll is and whether it's a good idea to remove it, get

>regularly sucked in by these scams, especially when they come recommended in

>these groups (they're also usually too flustered to pay much attention to

>the fact that *anybody* can give *any* answer here, and they're in a hurry

>so they do it all without realizing what potential disaster lies that way,

>and *do* end up with a hosed system.

 

Yes, users who come here are not registry savvy much less

knowledgeable about tools to clean up registry errors caused by

malicious programs or uninstalled programs. I don't assume they have

the high level of tech knowledge to use the tool as a tech savvy

person would but I do try to recommend as benign a solution as

possible. I have helped non-tech savvy users via registry tweaks and

they have been successful as many of them reply back stating it

resolved their issue. Anything I would surmise as requiring high skill

level for a user I don't recommend or even respond to.

 

In my experience, the primary reason users get a lot of these

weuyerwuy.dll and other junk on their PCs is because their Antivirus

is WAY out of date or expired. The other reason is because they use IE

and visit pages that exploit IE and / or visit sites that social

engineer the user into clicking something that is in fact installing

malware / trojans / spyware / keyloggers / ad nauseam. Users also

don't keep programs patched and up to date like tech-savvy folks do.

 

When users are using decent blocking tools that do disinfect threats,

these blocking tools typically don't remove registry entries that

point to the .dll location. Why do you think we've seen such a recent

surge in users coming to this group stating that they boot up and get

an error message stating "missing wqerqyti.dll"?

>I've seen THAT many, many, many (keep counting.... no, keep counting....)

 

It's likely the social engineers who visit this group could be

contributing to this and, you are correct, users can't always tell

whose advice is good and whose advice is potentially harmful.

 

- Thee Chicago Wolf

[Guest Kayman]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:25:53 -0500, Thee Chicago Wolf wrote:

>>Well TCW, why did you as an experienced user even bother cleaning that

>>(*"horribly infested"*) PC?

>

> Because 1) I like a challenge, 2) I *learn* from what these

> infestations do so that I can devise a better resolution strategy in

> the future, and 3) because I charge money for it?

 

Okay, but frankly, I can't follow....but we don't have to take this any

further.

IMO, provided one is properly prepared, flatten/rebuild takes less time

than 'cleaning' (and how could one be *really* sure that the OS is clean?).

>>"The only way to clean a compromised system is to flatten and rebuild.

>>That’s right. If you have a system that has been completely compromised,

>>the only thing you can do is to flatten the system (reformat the system

>>disk) and rebuild it from scratch (re-install Windows and your

>>applications)..."

>>http://www.microsoft.com/technet/community/columns/secmgmt/sm0504.mspx

>

> Obviously the *only* way, according to you, was not the only way.

 

You didn't notice the quotation marks, did you? :-) And you haven't read

the article, haven't you? :-)

> I'd much rather educate users, secure their computers, and retain all

> of their data. Sure I could have wiped their system, but that's the

> lazy person's solution and is always the last resort. I would have

> been back in 3 months doing the same thing all over again.

 

How would you test an OS for 100% 'cleanliness'?

> Had I not known, through this experience, that it was just a matter of

> dejunking the registry of orphaned entries to bring the computer back

> to its OOB performance, I would have recommended a clean wipe, which I

> did. I stand by my word and experience.

 

Fair enough. I know you are a frequent poster to ng's providing solid

advice. My posts/queries were not meant to be sarcastic! I was genuinely

interested as to why you preferred 'cleaning' and not flatten/rebuild (a

horribly infested PC).

[Guest Thee Chicago Wolf]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

>Okay, but frankly, I can't follow....but we don't have to take this any

>further.

>IMO, provided one is properly prepared, flatten/rebuild takes less time

>than 'cleaning' (and how could one be *really* sure that the OS is clean?).

 

It's impossible to know if an installation is 100% clean unless one

uses some heavy duty forensics / auditing apps on it. And even then. A

PC is as clean as it's latest AV defs and anti-mal defs are capable of

detection and removal. I have had instances where a month down the

line some vestige of an earlier baddie was detected and removed and

it's not unusual. It's never been anythign harmful but it has

happened. AV and Anti-Malware software writers will always be a few

steps behind the latest and greatest threats out there. 10 years ago I

would have said they were nearly in step, today, no way. Threats come

out at a rate that alarms even me an exploits for vulnerabilities even

faster. It's cat and mouse.

>>>"The only way to clean a compromised system is to flatten and rebuild.

>>>That’s right. If you have a system that has been completely compromised,

>>>the only thing you can do is to flatten the system (reformat the system

>>>disk) and rebuild it from scratch (re-install Windows and your

>>>applications)..."

>>>http://www.microsoft.com/technet/community/columns/secmgmt/sm0504.mspx

>>

>> Obviously the *only* way, according to you, was not the only way.

>

>You didn't notice the quotation marks, did you? :-) And you haven't read

>the article, haven't you? :-)

 

That's a very old article and I was aware of it before you passed it

along. The information is applicable for someone who doesn't have

access to a knowledgeable tech and doesn't care about their data. The

author's facts, while correct for the situation, are a lot of FUD. A

skilled tech will know if there are any remaining threats by running

other tools besids AV / Anti-mal.

>> I'd much rather educate users, secure their computers, and retain all

>> of their data. Sure I could have wiped their system, but that's the

>> lazy person's solution and is always the last resort. I would have

>> been back in 3 months doing the same thing all over again.

>

>How would you test an OS for 100% 'cleanliness'?

 

Authors of malware or virii or bots want to make sure their apps

typically disable anything that would normally disallow it to get out

on the Internet (Firewall, AV, Antispy, etc.) or to be removed by AV

and they add code to their apps to target and disable known exe's for

running. Thankfully this very behavior is what allows detection. The

authors design their badware to reveal itself to AV and Anti-mal apps

because they want it running and doing its deed, not disable and

hidden. This is the Achilles heel. What their apps don't target are

the slew of forensic tools, both GUI and command line, that can assist

in detection and removal. A good tech who knows their tools will know

what looks out of place and can spot behavior that isn't normal or

indicative of compromise.

>> Had I not known, through this experience, that it was just a matter of

>> dejunking the registry of orphaned entries to bring the computer back

>> to its OOB performance, I would have recommended a clean wipe, which I

>> did. I stand by my word and experience.

>

>Fair enough. I know you are a frequent poster to ng's providing solid

>advice. My posts/queries were not meant to be sarcastic! I was genuinely

>interested as to why you preferred 'cleaning' and not flatten/rebuild (a

>horribly infested PC).

 

While my time is valuable, I have to evaluate the situation and see if

it's worth both my and the customer's time and if they have backups of

their data. Home users and backups are like oil and water. I have yet

to encounter a home user who actually does regular backups of

important data. In this particular situation, I knew CCleaner just had

to run its course and do its thing to get rid of all the junk entries

IEFilter threw in there. Even if it took running 48 hours straight. I

was fortunate that the customer didn't need their machine back for a

few days and did appraise them of how long it was going to take.

Cheers.

 

- Thee Chicago Wolf

[Guest Ken Blake, MVP]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:27:55 -0500, Thee Chicago Wolf <.@.> wrote:

> >And what happens if the system cannot boot to get to the backups ????

> >

> >Registry Cleaners are all snake oil remedies in short. In long check

> >

> >http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099 and you make up your own mind

>

> With all due respect, the author over at Auhuma is not the last word

> on the matter

 

 

There is no "author over at Auhuma." As I pointed out in another

message, the link was to a thread in a forum. Many different people

posted to that thread, and pointers were provided to articles by

distinguished authors like Mark Russinovich and Ed Bott, saying the

same thing.

 

> and one could start a thread months long on the matter

> of registry cleaning.. I consider CCleaner to be light on the cleaning

> as compared to something such as JV16. CCleaner is a good tool and if

> someone doesn't want to use it, that's fine. I wouldn't recommend a

> tool to someone that would purposely hose their system and CCleaner is

> pretty fool-proof and I've not heard of any instances of it rendering

> a system unbootable due to a registry clean. The fact of the matter

> is, in an ideal world, software vendors / writers would uninstall ALL

> their junk clean and not leave a trace but this is isn't an ideal

> world and things always get left behind.

>

> I don't agree that CCleaner is snake oil

 

 

It isn't. As you said above CCleaner *is* a good tool. I use it myself

and I recommend it. However I do not use its registry cleaning

functions, and I recommend that others do not.

 

> and removing junk from the

> registry will somehow cause global warming or mass chaos.

 

 

Nobody here, certainly not me, has ever suggested that every time you

use CCleaner's registry cleaning feature (or even any other worse

registry cleaner) something terrible will happen to you.

 

The point is that the registry does not generally need cleaning

(especially automated cleaning) and that if you use such a tool, you

run the *risk* of its creating a serious problem. Not certainty, but

risk. There is no point to running any such risk for no benefit; it's

a bad bargain.

 

All that said, I agree with you that CCleaner's registry cleaning is

less aggressive than some of the alternatives, and the risk of using

it is less. But it still remains true that the registry doesn't need

to be cleaned, and that using *any* registry cleaner is a dangerous

thing to do.

 

I'll take your word for the story you relate below, and will accept

that in that unusual circumstance, using the registry cleaner was

helpful. However that is not a typical situation. Moreover, by far the

best thing to do when a computer is "horribly infested with all sorts

of malware / trojans / spyware / etc." is to reformat the drive and

reinstall Windows. Without doing that, it is impossible to be sure

that it is adequately cleaned.

 

> Here's my

> personal testimonial to what a great tool CCleaner is. My neighbor's

> PC was horribly infested with all sorts of malware / trojans / spyware

> / etc. due to their kids. When it was fully infested, it took *30

> minutes* to boot to the desktop. Any program took 20 minutes to load.

> Ultimately, I had to remove the hard drive and disinfect it on clean

> PC. It took a full day to clean everything off. After putting the

> drive back into the computer, it took 20 minutes to boot.

>

> One bug in there was called IEfilter and it created a key in EVERY

> SINGLE ENTRY in HKey_Classes_Root. I ran CCleaner on the computer for

> 48 hours straight and it cleaned out no less than 600000+ entries of

> IEFilter.dll in the registry Afterwards, the computer booted to

> desktop in 30-40 seconds and programs loaded quickly, as they should.

>

> I've been at this for 18+ years and have never, ever seen such an

> infested computer, much less one that could be successfully cleaned.

> I've seen many registry cleaners come and go in that time period and I

> do trust CCleaner. Snake oil my posterior.

>

> - Thee Chicago Wolf

 

--

Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience

Please Reply to the Newsgroup

[Guest Gary S. Terhune]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

Why is it that every time I put down a product, others assumed I've never

used it. I've used CCleaner, it doesn't have a log or any way to Undo

Registry changes. It's a PILE OF CRAP!

 

Any Registry Editor that has Find & Replace, fool.

 

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

 

"Thee Chicago Wolf" <.@.> wrote in message

news:3vq094dimatd24no6becas90jlj8i6bndk@4ax.com...

> >Snake oil it is, and will ever be. You don't need CCleaner to delete all

>>instances of such & such from the Registry, just a decent Registry editing

>>tool.

>

> That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I just don't agree with

> you. People with no experience using CCleaner are it's biggest

> critics.

 

Why is it that every time I put down a product, others assume I've never

used it. I've used CCleaner. It has a Registry Cleaner. ALL Registry

Cleaners are snake-oil, therefore CCleaner is snake-oil. You're only good

example is that it removed thousands of bogus entries AFTER doing a ton of

other cleanup on a seriously infected machine.

>What registry tool are you referring to if I may ask? The

> most decent registry editing tool is regedit and regedt32.

 

Neither of which have Find/Replace, which other Registry Editors do have.

Find/Replace would have gotten rid of your thousands or millions of bad

entries in certainly no less time than CCleaner. I'm not going to recommend

one, but I'm sure you can find a few. I don't generally use them, either.

When the Registry needs editing, I know what needs editing and I do it

manually, after backing up the Keys I'm working on. Those few times I needed

something with more function, I went out and found it. But The stuff that

CCLeaner deletes might not be found to be necessary until months or years

later, and meanwhile they are doing absolutely no harm where they are.

>>And people who come here looking for advice, average users for the most

>>part

>>and not capable of discerning the difference between HKLM and HKCU, much

>>less what wxyz.dll is and whether it's a good idea to remove it, get

>>regularly sucked in by these scams, especially when they come recommended

>>in

>>these groups (they're also usually too flustered to pay much attention to

>>the fact that *anybody* can give *any* answer here, and they're in a hurry

>>so they do it all without realizing what potential disaster lies that way,

>>and *do* end up with a hosed system.

>

> Yes, users who come here are not registry savvy much less

> knowledgeable about tools to clean up registry errors caused by

> malicious programs or uninstalled programs. I don't assume they have

> the high level of tech knowledge to use the tool as a tech savvy

> person would but I do try to recommend as benign a solution as

> possible. I have helped non-tech savvy users via registry tweaks and

> they have been successful as many of them reply back stating it

> resolved their issue. Anything I would surmise as requiring high skill

> level for a user I don't recommend or even respond to.

 

You were certainly willing to toss your recommendation for CCleaner into

THIS thread. I don't believe the OP lives up to your stringent standards.

You're associating yourself with a LOT of shills and people who don't know

what THEY are talking about when it comes to the Registry.

> In my experience, the primary reason users get a lot of these

> weuyerwuy.dll and other junk on their PCs is because their Antivirus

> is WAY out of date or expired. The other reason is because they use IE

> and visit pages that exploit IE and / or visit sites that social

> engineer the user into clicking something that is in fact installing

> malware / trojans / spyware / keyloggers / ad nauseam. Users also

> don't keep programs patched and up to date like tech-savvy folks do.

 

What does any of that have to do with CCleaner? And haven't you heard?

Windows XP and Vista, and ALL security apps include automatic updating,

which for some reason people like you and others who shill crap like

CCleaner are always telling them to TURN OFF!!

> When users are using decent blocking tools that do disinfect threats,

> these blocking tools typically don't remove registry entries that

> point to the .dll location. Why do you think we've seen such a recent

> surge in users coming to this group stating that they boot up and get

> an error message stating "missing wqerqyti.dll"?

 

That's shoddy work on the part of the AV makers, and you STILL don't need

CCleaner to clean up those leftovers.

>>I've seen THAT many, many, many (keep counting.... no, keep counting....)

>

> It's likely the social engineers who visit this group could be

> contributing to this and, you are correct, users can't always tell

> whose advice is good and whose advice is potentially harmful.

 

So why do you add your voice to the chorus of shills (themselves mostly

clueless and only pretending to know what they are talking about in order to

get attention or to think of themselves as more technically savvy than they

are, who promote these giant piles of dung?

 

I've been using and testing Registry Cleaners for twelve years. That's how I

found out that they VERY often remove things they shouldn't when simply told

to scan and fix. And every time someone steps up to defend them, it turns

out that if they have any integrity at all, the simply don't know about

easier and/or safer ways to do what they've been using things like CCleaner

for. Or that pointers to "Missing Shared DLLs" don't do the tiniest bit of

harm, and many/most CLSIDs, etc., are installed purposely in anticipation of

future need, or don't match "rules" because the rules have been changed.

 

Haven't used a single Registry Cleaner in the manner for which they are

designed on any machines, from 95 to Vista (other than testing) in several

years. Nearly all of the machines I'm responsible for go through disasters

unspeakable (due to clueless or deliberately obtuse users that make up my

family and SOHO clients, who just can't keep their clueless selves from

thinking, "I don't need to bother Gary for this," or "Why pay him for

maintenance, when there's all these magical tools like CCleaner, et al.") Of

course, they can't be bothered to learn how to do for themselves, either.

They want the cheap way out. And so, I clean them up, try to repair them,

though in many cases what was simple fix has turned into a reformat/clean

install.... And guess what: I stopped using any Registry Cleaner for any

serious work in ~2001/2002 when it became clear that they caused as many

problems as they solved when it comes to average users, and that for truly

savvy workers, there are much better ways to get things done. Things that

the average clueless user wouldn't even begin to touch, because everybody

points out how dangerous they are, as opposed to all those snake-oil

offerings out there that jerks recommend at the drop of a hat.

 

PS -- Funny thing how once they have to pay me to rebuild the entire system,

reinstall apps, reconfigure and tweak, and put all their data back where it

belongs, my clients are very eager to spend even more money to learn some

simple rules about programming (installing/uninstalling) and regular

maintenance. And 99% of them never forget, either.

 

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

[Guest Thee Chicago Wolf]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

>Why is it that every time I put down a product, others assumed I've never

>used it. I've used CCleaner, it doesn't have a log or any way to Undo

>Registry changes. It's a PILE OF CRAP!

>

>Any Registry Editor that has Find & Replace, fool.

 

Ok, now you're talking out your posterior. CCleaner always asks before

you want to remove registry entries if you'd like to back up the items

about to be removed.

 

- Thee Chicago Wolf

[Guest Gary S. Terhune]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

I thought I'd changed that paragraph. Oh, well. (I had to switch to a test

setup to check it out for sure.)

 

Thing is, when you scan the Registry using CCleaner, and you Select All and

right-click (the only way you can do anything, pretty much) it just lets you

make a text list of the entries flagged. Absolutely useless for easy

restoring. Thus my initial claim.

 

Then looked real deep and found something about a prompt to backup before

deleting in Settings, so I thought, "Maybe they do have an Undo function",

tested what happens when I deleted the stuff that was found, and it prompted

me to create REG file. But there is NO undo function in the app itself. You

can only, simply (if you know WTF a REG file is in the first place.) And

that's an all or nothing proposition. Certainly not an expert way to write

an expert's utility. Add to that the fact that, again, we are talking about

*average* unknowledgeable users being hyped that the thing is all you need

to make your system run like new.

 

In short, it is ONLY suitable for experts and any real expert would laugh

(or spit) in your face for calling yourself an expert AND using CCleaner.

 

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

 

"Thee Chicago Wolf" <.@.> wrote in message

news:jqj194tmq8pebui92lsidg7oo0l25uqpoh@4ax.com...

> >Why is it that every time I put down a product, others assumed I've never

>>used it. I've used CCleaner, it doesn't have a log or any way to Undo

>>Registry changes. It's a PILE OF CRAP!

>>

>>Any Registry Editor that has Find & Replace, fool.

>

> Ok, now you're talking out your posterior. CCleaner always asks before

> you want to remove registry entries if you'd like to back up the items

> about to be removed.

>

> - Thee Chicago Wolf

[Guest Gary S. Terhune]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

More accurately, I sent the wrong post. Thought I'd deleted that one, and

the one that I did write, which was long, detailed and much more reasonable,

got lost. Blame too many interruptions.

 

And I'm too tired to write it again.

 

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

 

"Thee Chicago Wolf" <.@.> wrote in message

news:jqj194tmq8pebui92lsidg7oo0l25uqpoh@4ax.com...

> >Why is it that every time I put down a product, others assumed I've never

>>used it. I've used CCleaner, it doesn't have a log or any way to Undo

>>Registry changes. It's a PILE OF CRAP!

>>

>>Any Registry Editor that has Find & Replace, fool.

>

> Ok, now you're talking out your posterior. CCleaner always asks before

> you want to remove registry entries if you'd like to back up the items

> about to be removed.

>

> - Thee Chicago Wolf

[Guest Peter Foldes]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

Too many times that I have come across clients that have used CCleaner and other Registry cleaning tools that do make backups just in case where they could not boot again and not even get to their backups. Registry cleaning tools are all dangerous if you do not know what it is removing. Most if not all do not know

Besides removing left over and dead entries will not make your system faster and does not give you extra space.

 

Do you have any idea how big in size would be for let's say 100 entries in the reg

--

Peter

 

Please Reply to Newsgroup for the benefit of others

Requests for assistance by email can not and will not be acknowledged.

 

"Thee Chicago Wolf" <.@.> wrote in message news:jqj194tmq8pebui92lsidg7oo0l25uqpoh@4ax.com...

> >Why is it that every time I put down a product, others assumed I've never

>>used it. I've used CCleaner, it doesn't have a log or any way to Undo

>>Registry changes. It's a PILE OF CRAP!

>>

>>Any Registry Editor that has Find & Replace, fool.

>

> Ok, now you're talking out your posterior. CCleaner always asks before

> you want to remove registry entries if you'd like to back up the items

> about to be removed.

>

> - Thee Chicago Wolf

[Guest Kayman]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:27:11 -0500, Thee Chicago Wolf wrote:

>>Okay, but frankly, I can't follow....but we don't have to take this any

>>further.

>>IMO, provided one is properly prepared, flatten/rebuild takes less time

>>than 'cleaning' (and how could one be *really* sure that the OS is clean?).

>

> It's impossible to know if an installation is 100% clean unless one

> uses some heavy duty forensics / auditing apps on it. And even then. A

> PC is as clean as it's latest AV defs and anti-mal defs are capable of

> detection and removal. I have had instances where a month down the

> line some vestige of an earlier baddie was detected and removed and

> it's not unusual. It's never been anythign harmful but it has

> happened. AV and Anti-Malware software writers will always be a few

> steps behind the latest and greatest threats out there. 10 years ago I

> would have said they were nearly in step, today, no way. Threats come

> out at a rate that alarms even me an exploits for vulnerabilities even

> faster. It's cat and mouse.

>

>>>>"The only way to clean a compromised system is to flatten and rebuild.

>>>>That’s right. If you have a system that has been completely compromised,

>>>>the only thing you can do is to flatten the system (reformat the system

>>>>disk) and rebuild it from scratch (re-install Windows and your

>>>>applications)..."

>>>>http://www.microsoft.com/technet/community/columns/secmgmt/sm0504.mspx

>>>

>>> Obviously the *only* way, according to you, was not the only way.

>>

>>You didn't notice the quotation marks, did you? :-) And you haven't read

>>the article, haven't you? :-)

>

> That's a very old article and I was aware of it before you passed it

> along. The information is applicable for someone who doesn't have

> access to a knowledgeable tech and doesn't care about their data. The

> author's facts, while correct for the situation, are a lot of FUD. A

> skilled tech will know if there are any remaining threats by running

> other tools besids AV / Anti-mal.

>

>>> I'd much rather educate users, secure their computers, and retain all

>>> of their data. Sure I could have wiped their system, but that's the

>>> lazy person's solution and is always the last resort. I would have

>>> been back in 3 months doing the same thing all over again.

>>

>>How would you test an OS for 100% 'cleanliness'?

>

> Authors of malware or virii or bots want to make sure their apps

> typically disable anything that would normally disallow it to get out

> on the Internet (Firewall, AV, Antispy, etc.) or to be removed by AV

> and they add code to their apps to target and disable known exe's for

> running. Thankfully this very behavior is what allows detection. The

> authors design their badware to reveal itself to AV and Anti-mal apps

> because they want it running and doing its deed, not disable and

> hidden. This is the Achilles heel. What their apps don't target are

> the slew of forensic tools, both GUI and command line, that can assist

> in detection and removal. A good tech who knows their tools will know

> what looks out of place and can spot behavior that isn't normal or

> indicative of compromise.

>

>>> Had I not known, through this experience, that it was just a matter of

>>> dejunking the registry of orphaned entries to bring the computer back

>>> to its OOB performance, I would have recommended a clean wipe, which I

>>> did. I stand by my word and experience.

>>

>>Fair enough. I know you are a frequent poster to ng's providing solid

>>advice. My posts/queries were not meant to be sarcastic! I was genuinely

>>interested as to why you preferred 'cleaning' and not flatten/rebuild (a

>>horribly infested PC).

>

> While my time is valuable, I have to evaluate the situation and see if

> it's worth both my and the customer's time and if they have backups of

> their data. Home users and backups are like oil and water. I have yet

> to encounter a home user who actually does regular backups of

> important data. In this particular situation, I knew CCleaner just had

> to run its course and do its thing to get rid of all the junk entries

> IEFilter threw in there. Even if it took running 48 hours straight. I

> was fortunate that the customer didn't need their machine back for a

> few days and did appraise them of how long it was going to take.

> Cheers.

>

Thanks for detailed response, TCW.

I (and I talk about me) remain unconvinced that and horribly invested PC

can be 'cleaned' effectively and AFAIC reformatting the HDD and

reinstalling the OS would in this case my preferred course of action.

Best wishes...

[Guest Thee Chicago Wolf]

Re: SP3 and CCleaner

 

>I thought I'd changed that paragraph. Oh, well. (I had to switch to a test

>setup to check it out for sure.)

>

>Thing is, when you scan the Registry using CCleaner, and you Select All and

>right-click (the only way you can do anything, pretty much) it just lets you

>make a text list of the entries flagged. Absolutely useless for easy

>restoring. Thus my initial claim.

>

>Then looked real deep and found something about a prompt to backup before

>deleting in Settings, so I thought, "Maybe they do have an Undo function",

>tested what happens when I deleted the stuff that was found, and it prompted

>me to create REG file. But there is NO undo function in the app itself. You

>can only, simply (if you know WTF a REG file is in the first place.) And

>that's an all or nothing proposition. Certainly not an expert way to write

>an expert's utility. Add to that the fact that, again, we are talking about

>*average* unknowledgeable users being hyped that the thing is all you need

>to make your system run like new.

 

That's why it's called a *cleaner* not a backup / restore or undo

utility. Re-importing a reg file is, in effect, an undo. It doesn't

take a brain surgeon. That's why there are restore points via system

restore, no? Come on, your conclusions and argument are disingenuous

at best.

>In short, it is ONLY suitable for experts and any real expert would laugh

>(or spit) in your face for calling yourself an expert AND using CCleaner.

 

Sarcasm noted. Thanks for your input.

 

- Thee Chicago Wolf