Guest billybob Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language installed..looks like french...plus he doesn't know the password to login...It came with the XP install CD (in french !). and licence key ..So on trying to do an new install all the initial boot screen stuff is in french as well. Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his existing PC's XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do a clean install but actually put in the licence key for the french version ?...you get my drift ? Thanks in advance
Guest Malke Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes billybob wrote: > My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language installed..looks > like french...plus he doesn't know the password to login...It came with > the XP install CD (in french !). and licence key ..So on trying to do an > new install all the initial boot screen stuff is in french as well. > Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his existing PC's > XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do a clean install but > actually put in the licence key for the french version ?...you get my > drift ? Thanks in advance I get your drift but it won't work. Your friend will need to purchase an English version of XP and do a clean install. http://michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html - Clean Install How-To http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/page2.html#Reinstalling_Windows - What you will need on-hand Malke -- MS-MVP Elephant Boy Computers - Don't Panic! FAQ - http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/#FAQ
Guest Ken Blake, MVP Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 23:21:30 +0100, "billybob" <billybob@hotmail.com> wrote: > My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language installed..looks > like french...plus he doesn't know the password to login...It came with the > XP install CD (in french !). and licence key ..So on trying to do an new > install all the initial boot screen stuff is in french as well. > Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his existing PC's XP > Home installation CD (an english version) to do a clean install but actually > put in the licence key for the french version ?...you get my drift ? I get your drift. However your mate can not do this. Her French Product Key won't be accepted in an English version. She'll need to buy an English version and install it. -- Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience Please Reply to the Newsgroup
Guest BillW50 Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes In news:eUiCo6l$IHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl, Malke typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:39:46 -0700: > billybob wrote: > >> My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language >> installed..looks like french...plus he doesn't know the password to >> login...It came with the XP install CD (in french !). and licence >> key ..So on trying to do an new install all the initial boot screen >> stuff is in french as well. >> Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his existing >> PC's XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do a clean >> install but actually put in the licence key for the french version >> ?...you get my drift ? Thanks in advance > > I get your drift but it won't work. Your friend will need to purchase > an English version of XP and do a clean install. > > http://michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html - Clean Install > How-To > http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/page2.html#Reinstalling_Windows - > What you will need on-hand What? Microsoft locks the key into the language of the install? What the heck for? I physically like to met these people from Microsoft someday. Better yet, I like to take them to court. It is bad enough that I have many OEM versions and I don't have a Recovery Console option and I have to go out and buy a retail version of Windows XP just to get it. And then the stupid key from the bottom of my laptops won't even work on it. If I sold stuff that didn't work, I would be throw in jail and rightly so. But if Microsoft sells stuff that doesn't work, they are not thrown in jail. Thus Microsoft is above the law. Something is wrong here. And as far as I am concern, MVP's are just as guilty. Some of us are smarter than they are, but we can't be bought! -- Bill Black Asus EEE PC 4GB 2GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux
Guest Pegasus \(MVP\) Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes "billybob" <billybob@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:eaqdnQHZPZR1MjnVRVnyuQA@bt.com... > My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language installed..looks > like french...plus he doesn't know the password to login...It came with > the XP install CD (in french !). and licence key ..So on trying to do an > new install all the initial boot screen stuff is in french as well. > Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his existing PC's > XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do a clean install but > actually put in the licence key for the french version ?...you get my > drift ? > Thanks in advance Ignoring the language issue for a moment: Installing a new version of Windows because of an unknown password is much the same as replacing the house door because of a lost key. Much easier to use this boot disk to reset the Administrator password to a blank: http://home.eunet.no/~pnordahl/ntpasswd/bootdisk.html
Guest Mike Hall - MVP Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message news:Ot6WKHm$IHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > In news:eUiCo6l$IHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl, > Malke typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:39:46 -0700: >> billybob wrote: >> >>> My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language >>> installed..looks like french...plus he doesn't know the password to >>> login...It came with the XP install CD (in french !). and licence >>> key ..So on trying to do an new install all the initial boot screen >>> stuff is in french as well. >>> Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his existing >>> PC's XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do a clean >>> install but actually put in the licence key for the french version >>> ?...you get my drift ? Thanks in advance >> >> I get your drift but it won't work. Your friend will need to purchase >> an English version of XP and do a clean install. >> >> http://michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html - Clean Install >> How-To >> http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/page2.html#Reinstalling_Windows - >> What you will need on-hand > > What? Microsoft locks the key into the language of the install? What the > heck for? I physically like to met these people from Microsoft someday. > Better yet, I like to take them to court. > > It is bad enough that I have many OEM versions and I don't have a Recovery > Console option and I have to go out and buy a retail version of Windows XP > just to get it. And then the stupid key from the bottom of my laptops > won't even work on it. > > If I sold stuff that didn't work, I would be throw in jail and rightly so. > But if Microsoft sells stuff that doesn't work, they are not thrown in > jail. Thus Microsoft is above the law. Something is wrong here. And as far > as I am concern, MVP's are just as guilty. Some of us are smarter than > they are, but we can't be bought! > > -- > Bill > Black Asus EEE PC 4GB 2GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB > Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux > They do work with the appropriate key. Every time that you buy a copy of Windows, the appropriate key is supplied. Re being bought, they say that everybody has a price. What is yours? -- Mike Hall - MVP How to construct a good post.. http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups.. http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?pr=newswhelp&style=toc Mike's Window - My Blog.. http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx
Guest Patrick Keenan Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message news:Ot6WKHm$IHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > In news:eUiCo6l$IHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl, > Malke typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:39:46 -0700: >> billybob wrote: >> >>> My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language >>> installed..looks like french...plus he doesn't know the password to >>> login...It came with the XP install CD (in french !). and licence >>> key ..So on trying to do an new install all the initial boot screen >>> stuff is in french as well. >>> Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his existing >>> PC's XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do a clean >>> install but actually put in the licence key for the french version >>> ?...you get my drift ? Thanks in advance >> >> I get your drift but it won't work. Your friend will need to purchase >> an English version of XP and do a clean install. >> >> http://michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html - Clean Install >> How-To >> http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/page2.html#Reinstalling_Windows - >> What you will need on-hand > > What? Microsoft locks the key into the language of the install? What the > heck for? I physically like to met these people from Microsoft someday. > Better yet, I like to take them to court. Go ahead. I'm sure your lawyer will be happy to take your money. You might want to have a case, first, though. > > It is bad enough that I have many OEM versions and I don't have a Recovery > Console option and I have to go out and buy a retail version of Windows XP > just to get it. Well, that's a choice the OEM made, not Microsoft. And they generally make this choice to reduce support costs, removing the need to have customers install XP and then sort through what drivers to install. Instead, the customer just has to insert disks as directed, and at the end the system is complete. Are there shortcomings in this? Yes. Does it raise the cost of the product to do it the old way? You bet it does. So take your pick. You can pay less and get fewer options and less complexity oir you can pay more and get standard options and more complexity. But you can - I have done so - use any bootable XP CD to get to the recovery console, Home or Pro, Retail, OEM, MSDN, it doesn't matter. You won't be asked for an install key, you are not installing anything, you are simply logging into the Administrator account with a limited subset of XP. Yes, this means that you have to have *a* bootable XP CD on hand. But you can borrow one. You do not have to replace the license from any system to use it. You could copy an existing XP CD for this purpose without anyone complaining too bitterly. And for most functions of the Recovery Console, you can use a Linux boot CD. And of course, you *could* just install the Recovery Console... http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307654 > And then the stupid key from the bottom of my laptops won't even work on > it. Of course not. The OEM key is not the same as the retail key. But you don't need the license key to use the Recovery Console from a CD. > If I sold stuff that didn't work, I would be throw in jail and rightly so. > But if Microsoft sells stuff that doesn't work, they are not thrown in > jail. Thus Microsoft is above the law. Something is wrong here. What's wrong is that you don't understand the licensing issues. When you buy OEM licenses, you pay much less than a retail license, and if the OEM decided to cut their support costs by not supplying an XP Boot CD, instead using a recovery disk, well, that's part of why you spent less. And that's the OEM's choice, not Microsoft's. And it's your choice when you decide what you buy. -pk > And as far as I am concern, MVP's are just as guilty. Some of us are > smarter than they are, but we can't be bought! > > -- > Bill > Black Asus EEE PC 4GB 2GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB > Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux >
Guest Patrick Keenan Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes "billybob" <billybob@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:eaqdnQHZPZR1MjnVRVnyuQA@bt.com... > My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language installed..looks > like french...plus he doesn't know the password to login...It came with > the XP install CD (in french !). and licence key ..So on trying to do an > new install all the initial boot screen stuff is in french as well. > Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his existing PC's > XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do a clean install but > actually put in the licence key for the french version ?...you get my > drift ? > Thanks in advance Nope, won't work. You will need to get an English license, but you might find that the French license is transferrable and can be resold. This usually isn't the case for OEM versions, where the license isn't transferrable. In any case, a new XP license is a fairly low price for a new PC. HTH -pk
Guest BillW50 Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes In news:uz3L8am$IHA.1016@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl, Mike Hall - MVP typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:37:34 -0400: > "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message > news:Ot6WKHm$IHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >> In news:eUiCo6l$IHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl, >> Malke typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:39:46 -0700: >>> billybob wrote: >>> >>>> My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language >>>> installed..looks like french...plus he doesn't know the password to >>>> login...It came with the XP install CD (in french !). and licence >>>> key ..So on trying to do an new install all the initial boot screen >>>> stuff is in french as well. >>>> Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his >>>> existing PC's XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do a >>>> clean install but actually put in the licence key for the french >>>> version ?...you get my drift ? Thanks in advance >>> >>> I get your drift but it won't work. Your friend will need to >>> purchase an English version of XP and do a clean install. >>> >>> http://michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html - Clean Install >>> How-To >>> http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/page2.html#Reinstalling_Windows >>> - What you will need on-hand >> >> What? Microsoft locks the key into the language of the install? What >> the heck for? I physically like to met these people from Microsoft >> someday. Better yet, I like to take them to court. >> >> It is bad enough that I have many OEM versions and I don't have a >> Recovery Console option and I have to go out and buy a retail >> version of Windows XP just to get it. And then the stupid key from >> the bottom of my laptops won't even work on it. >> >> If I sold stuff that didn't work, I would be throw in jail and >> rightly so. But if Microsoft sells stuff that doesn't work, they are >> not thrown in jail. Thus Microsoft is above the law. Something is >> wrong here. And as far as I am concern, MVP's are just as guilty. >> Some of us are smarter than they are, but we can't be bought! > > They do work with the appropriate key. Every time that you buy a copy > of Windows, the appropriate key is supplied. > > Re being bought, they say that everybody has a price. What is yours? Luckily there isn't enough money in the world to buy me out. And I dare anybody to try. It won't work! Having said this, out of all the companies out there... I am most grateful that Microsoft is on top. Because they are the nicest out of the bunch. Any anybody else would be far worse. And I am most positive of this. As far as keys, I don't buy that for a moment. For example, this Asus EEE PC came with a DVD that has Ghost v10 and it Ghost the image to the SSD (solid state drive) and the key on the bottom of the machine is useless. It is only for show and doesn't do a dang thing. And Ghost v10 doesn't work with my cheap no name DVD burner from China. But it can read data CD and DVD all day long. Even Windows XP Retail install CDs. So what am I supposed to do? Buy a better DVD burner or buy a retail version of Windows XP? MS rips off the honest customer with the latter of course. No refund from the OEM license that doesn't work and force customers to pay again. If I pulled this off, I would be in jail! -- Bill Black Asus EEE PC 4GB 2GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux
Guest Mike Hall - MVP Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message news:%23OLiXGn$IHA.3756@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > In news:uz3L8am$IHA.1016@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl, > Mike Hall - MVP typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:37:34 -0400: >> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message >> news:Ot6WKHm$IHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >>> In news:eUiCo6l$IHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl, >>> Malke typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:39:46 -0700: >>>> billybob wrote: >>>> >>>>> My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language >>>>> installed..looks like french...plus he doesn't know the password to >>>>> login...It came with the XP install CD (in french !). and licence >>>>> key ..So on trying to do an new install all the initial boot screen >>>>> stuff is in french as well. >>>>> Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his >>>>> existing PC's XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do a >>>>> clean install but actually put in the licence key for the french >>>>> version ?...you get my drift ? Thanks in advance >>>> >>>> I get your drift but it won't work. Your friend will need to >>>> purchase an English version of XP and do a clean install. >>>> >>>> http://michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html - Clean Install >>>> How-To >>>> http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/page2.html#Reinstalling_Windows >>>> - What you will need on-hand >>> >>> What? Microsoft locks the key into the language of the install? What >>> the heck for? I physically like to met these people from Microsoft >>> someday. Better yet, I like to take them to court. >>> >>> It is bad enough that I have many OEM versions and I don't have a >>> Recovery Console option and I have to go out and buy a retail >>> version of Windows XP just to get it. And then the stupid key from >>> the bottom of my laptops won't even work on it. >>> >>> If I sold stuff that didn't work, I would be throw in jail and >>> rightly so. But if Microsoft sells stuff that doesn't work, they are >>> not thrown in jail. Thus Microsoft is above the law. Something is >>> wrong here. And as far as I am concern, MVP's are just as guilty. >>> Some of us are smarter than they are, but we can't be bought! >> >> They do work with the appropriate key. Every time that you buy a copy >> of Windows, the appropriate key is supplied. >> >> Re being bought, they say that everybody has a price. What is yours? > > Luckily there isn't enough money in the world to buy me out. And I dare > anybody to try. It won't work! > > Having said this, out of all the companies out there... I am most grateful > that Microsoft is on top. Because they are the nicest out of the bunch. > Any anybody else would be far worse. And I am most positive of this. > > As far as keys, I don't buy that for a moment. For example, this Asus EEE > PC came with a DVD that has Ghost v10 and it Ghost the image to the SSD > (solid state drive) and the key on the bottom of the machine is useless. > It is only for show and doesn't do a dang thing. And Ghost v10 doesn't > work with my cheap no name DVD burner from China. But it can read data CD > and DVD all day long. Even Windows XP Retail install CDs. So what am I > supposed to do? Buy a better DVD burner or buy a retail version of Windows > XP? MS rips off the honest customer with the latter of course. No refund > from the OEM license that doesn't work and force customers to pay again. > If I pulled this off, I would be in jail! > > -- > Bill > Black Asus EEE PC 4GB 2GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB > Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux > If you want a manufacturer OEM, ask the manufacturer. I don't see what your problem is. -- Mike Hall - MVP How to construct a good post.. http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups.. http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?pr=newswhelp&style=toc Mike's Window - My Blog.. http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx
Guest BillW50 Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes In news:emOHARn$IHA.3756@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl, Mike Hall - MVP typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:14:19 -0400: > "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message > news:%23OLiXGn$IHA.3756@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... >> In news:uz3L8am$IHA.1016@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl, >> Mike Hall - MVP typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:37:34 -0400: >>> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message >>> news:Ot6WKHm$IHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >>>> In news:eUiCo6l$IHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl, >>>> Malke typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:39:46 -0700: >>>>> billybob wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language >>>>>> installed..looks like french...plus he doesn't know the password >>>>>> to login...It came with the XP install CD (in french !). and >>>>>> licence key ..So on trying to do an new install all the initial >>>>>> boot screen stuff is in french as well. >>>>>> Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his >>>>>> existing PC's XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do >>>>>> a clean install but actually put in the licence key for the >>>>>> french version ?...you get my drift ? Thanks in advance >>>>> >>>>> I get your drift but it won't work. Your friend will need to >>>>> purchase an English version of XP and do a clean install. >>>>> >>>>> http://michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html - Clean Install >>>>> How-To >>>>> http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/page2.html#Reinstalling_Windows >>>>> - What you will need on-hand >>>> >>>> What? Microsoft locks the key into the language of the install? >>>> What the heck for? I physically like to met these people from >>>> Microsoft someday. Better yet, I like to take them to court. >>>> >>>> It is bad enough that I have many OEM versions and I don't have a >>>> Recovery Console option and I have to go out and buy a retail >>>> version of Windows XP just to get it. And then the stupid key from >>>> the bottom of my laptops won't even work on it. >>>> >>>> If I sold stuff that didn't work, I would be throw in jail and >>>> rightly so. But if Microsoft sells stuff that doesn't work, they >>>> are not thrown in jail. Thus Microsoft is above the law. Something >>>> is wrong here. And as far as I am concern, MVP's are just as >>>> guilty. Some of us are smarter than they are, but we can't be >>>> bought! >>> >>> They do work with the appropriate key. Every time that you buy a >>> copy of Windows, the appropriate key is supplied. >>> >>> Re being bought, they say that everybody has a price. What is yours? >> >> Luckily there isn't enough money in the world to buy me out. And I >> dare anybody to try. It won't work! >> >> Having said this, out of all the companies out there... I am most >> grateful that Microsoft is on top. Because they are the nicest out >> of the bunch. Any anybody else would be far worse. And I am most >> positive of this. As far as keys, I don't buy that for a moment. For >> example, this >> Asus EEE PC came with a DVD that has Ghost v10 and it Ghost the >> image to the SSD (solid state drive) and the key on the bottom of >> the machine is useless. It is only for show and doesn't do a dang >> thing. And Ghost v10 doesn't work with my cheap no name DVD burner >> from China. But it can read data CD and DVD all day long. Even >> Windows XP Retail install CDs. So what am I supposed to do? Buy a >> better DVD burner or buy a retail version of Windows XP? MS rips off >> the honest customer with the latter of course. No refund from the >> OEM license that doesn't work and force customers to pay again. If I >> pulled this off, I would be in jail! > > If you want a manufacturer OEM, ask the manufacturer. I don't see > what your problem is. Simple! It doesn't say Joe Blow Software it says Microsoft! If Microsoft wants to screw honest customers it will reflect on them badly. Something that many (besides Microsoft) just doesn't get. If I were Microsoft, the last thing I would do is to upset the end user. But Microsoft doesn't care, they got their money and they are happy. And the idea that screw the end user *will* bite them back. They just don't see it. -- Bill Black Asus EEE PC 4GB 2GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux
Guest John John (MVP) Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes BillW50 wrote: > ...And as far as I am > concern, MVP's are just as guilty. Some of us are smarter than they are, but > we can't be bought! Obviously you don't know how the MVP program works... or they sent my check to the wrong address! John
Guest BillW50 Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes In news:ec0lBym$IHA.2060@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl, Patrick Keenan typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:18:52 -0400: > "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message > news:Ot6WKHm$IHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >> In news:eUiCo6l$IHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl, >> Malke typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:39:46 -0700: >>> billybob wrote: >>> >>>> My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language >>>> installed..looks like french...plus he doesn't know the password to >>>> login...It came with the XP install CD (in french !). and licence >>>> key ..So on trying to do an new install all the initial boot screen >>>> stuff is in french as well. >>>> Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his >>>> existing PC's XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do a >>>> clean install but actually put in the licence key for the french >>>> version ?...you get my drift ? Thanks in advance >>> >>> I get your drift but it won't work. Your friend will need to >>> purchase an English version of XP and do a clean install. >>> >>> http://michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html - Clean Install >>> How-To >>> http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/page2.html#Reinstalling_Windows >>> - What you will need on-hand >> >> What? Microsoft locks the key into the language of the install? What >> the heck for? I physically like to met these people from Microsoft >> someday. Better yet, I like to take them to court. > > Go ahead. I'm sure your lawyer will be happy to take your money. > > You might want to have a case, first, though. I take it you never saw the trial between Microsoft and the US. It was so very clear that Microsoft was acting stupid! Even the judge ruled against them. But want happened? Nothing! The truth is the one with the most money wins. But that wouldn't stop me one bit getting the truth out. >> It is bad enough that I have many OEM versions and I don't have a >> Recovery Console option and I have to go out and buy a retail >> version of Windows XP just to get it. > > Well, that's a choice the OEM made, not Microsoft. And they > generally make this choice to reduce support costs, removing the > need to have customers install XP and then sort through what drivers > to install. Instead, the customer just has to insert disks as > directed, and at the end the system is complete. Oh bull! The software states Microsoft and Microsoft is to blame for the deals it makes. Don't give me that BS! If Microsoft has any respect, they would *never* have their name tarnished. The truth is they don't care. Because if they did, they would do something about it. I know I would. > Are there shortcomings in this? Yes. Does it raise the cost of the > product to do it the old way? You bet it does. Windows 3.1 OEM costs $40 and today Windows XP OEM still costs $40. > So take your pick. You can pay less and get fewer options and less > complexity oir you can pay more and get standard options and more > complexity. Microsoft sells substandard software? Gee isn't that what I am complainning about? > But you can - I have done so - use any bootable XP CD to get to the > recovery console, Home or Pro, Retail, OEM, MSDN, it doesn't matter. This is illegal with OEM versions! > You won't be asked for an install key, you are not installing > anything, you are simply logging into the Administrator account with > a limited subset of XP. Not even close to a subset! I typed CD\ and it doesn't work. It has to be CD \ and when I type CHKDSK /F it doesn't work either. They break their own rules. > Yes, this means that you have to have *a* bootable XP CD on hand. But you > can borrow one. You do not have to replace the license from > any system to use it. You could copy an existing XP CD for this > purpose without anyone complaining too bitterly. According to Microsoft, you are a pirate if you do so. > And for most functions of the Recovery Console, you can use a Linux boot > CD. Really? If you don't know a thing about Linux then what? The software states Microsoft and not Linux. > And of course, you *could* just install the Recovery Console... > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307654 Yes illegally. >> And then the stupid key from the bottom of my laptops won't even >> work on it. > > Of course not. The OEM key is not the same as the retail key. But you > don't need the license key to use the Recovery Console from a > CD. Completely worthless and just for show. That key is never asked for anything. So we are paying for a key that means nothing. How great is that? >> If I sold stuff that didn't work, I would be throw in jail and >> rightly so. But if Microsoft sells stuff that doesn't work, they are >> not thrown in jail. Thus Microsoft is above the law. Something is >> wrong here. > > What's wrong is that you don't understand the licensing issues. Look! If I put my name of something I want it to be respectable. And if it isn't, I would be very hard on the OEM. But Microsoft just doesn't care and it reflects on Microsoft and nobody else. > When you buy OEM licenses, you pay much less than a retail license, > and if the OEM decided to cut their support costs by not supplying an > XP Boot CD, instead using a recovery disk, well, that's part of why > you spent less. > And that's the OEM's choice, not Microsoft's. > > And it's your choice when you decide what you buy. No the deal is it is from Microsoft and Microsoft accepts the deal they made. So Microsoft is responsible, period! You can't tell me that Microsoft is a newbie and doesn't know any better. As when Bill Gates was playing with Basic, I was playing around with the VTAS computer that got men to the moon. -- Bill Black Asus EEE PC 4GB 2GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux
Guest BillW50 Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes In news:ud3Jvhn$IHA.1452@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl, John John (MVP) typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:44:28 -0300: > BillW50 wrote: > >> ...And as far as I am concern, MVP's are just as guilty. Some of us are >> smarter than they are, but we can't be bought! > > Obviously you don't know how the MVP program works... or they sent my > check to the wrong address! I would be telling the truth. The heck with any money. Those that doesn't stick up for the truth whether paid or not is in with them. are they not? -- Bill Black Asus EEE PC 4GB 2GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux
Guest Patrick Keenan Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message news:%23M$X$zn$IHA.1224@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > In news:ec0lBym$IHA.2060@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl, > Patrick Keenan typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:18:52 -0400: >> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message >> news:Ot6WKHm$IHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >>> In news:eUiCo6l$IHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl, >>> Malke typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:39:46 -0700: >>>> billybob wrote: >>>> >>>>> My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language >>>>> installed..looks like french...plus he doesn't know the password to >>>>> login...It came with the XP install CD (in french !). and licence >>>>> key ..So on trying to do an new install all the initial boot screen >>>>> stuff is in french as well. >>>>> Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his >>>>> existing PC's XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do a >>>>> clean install but actually put in the licence key for the french >>>>> version ?...you get my drift ? Thanks in advance >>>> >>>> I get your drift but it won't work. Your friend will need to >>>> purchase an English version of XP and do a clean install. >>>> >>>> http://michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html - Clean Install >>>> How-To >>>> http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/page2.html#Reinstalling_Windows >>>> - What you will need on-hand >>> >>> What? Microsoft locks the key into the language of the install? What >>> the heck for? I physically like to met these people from Microsoft >>> someday. Better yet, I like to take them to court. >> >> Go ahead. I'm sure your lawyer will be happy to take your money. >> >> You might want to have a case, first, though. > > I take it you never saw the trial between Microsoft and the US. It was so > very clear that Microsoft was acting stupid! Even the judge ruled against > them. But want happened? Nothing! The truth is the one with the most money > wins. But that wouldn't stop me one bit getting the truth out. > >>> It is bad enough that I have many OEM versions and I don't have a >>> Recovery Console option and I have to go out and buy a retail >>> version of Windows XP just to get it. >> >> Well, that's a choice the OEM made, not Microsoft. And they >> generally make this choice to reduce support costs, removing the >> need to have customers install XP and then sort through what drivers >> to install. Instead, the customer just has to insert disks as >> directed, and at the end the system is complete. > > Oh bull! The software states Microsoft and Microsoft is to blame for the > deals it makes. Don't give me that BS! If Microsoft has any respect, they > would *never* have their name tarnished. The truth is they don't care. > Because if they did, they would do something about it. I know I would. > >> Are there shortcomings in this? Yes. Does it raise the cost of the >> product to do it the old way? You bet it does. > > Windows 3.1 OEM costs $40 and today Windows XP OEM still costs $40. Perhaps you are unaware of why the OEM price is lower (and it sure isn't $40 where I am). It's because all of the support responsibility goes to the OEM, not to Microsoft. So MS doesn't have to cover those costs. > >> So take your pick. You can pay less and get fewer options and less >> complexity oir you can pay more and get standard options and more >> complexity. > > Microsoft sells substandard software? Gee isn't that what I am > complainning about? It's not what I wrote, is it? > >> But you can - I have done so - use any bootable XP CD to get to the >> recovery console, Home or Pro, Retail, OEM, MSDN, it doesn't matter. > > This is illegal with OEM versions! You're welcome. But perhaps you can show where this is ruled illegal in the licensing agreement. You don't install anything this way. > >> You won't be asked for an install key, you are not installing >> anything, you are simply logging into the Administrator account with >> a limited subset of XP. > > Not even close to a subset! Perhaps you don't understand what a subset is. > I typed CD\ and it doesn't work. It has to be CD \ and when I type CHKDSK > /F it doesn't work either. They break their own rules. > >> Yes, this means that you have to have *a* bootable XP CD on hand. But >> you can borrow one. You do not have to replace the license from >> any system to use it. You could copy an existing XP CD for this >> purpose without anyone complaining too bitterly. > > According to Microsoft, you are a pirate if you do so. Show where in the licensing agreement this is stated. > >> And for most functions of the Recovery Console, you can use a Linux boot >> CD. > > Really? If you don't know a thing about Linux then what? Then you get help. > The software states Microsoft and not Linux. What a whiz you are! > >> And of course, you *could* just install the Recovery Console... >> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307654 > > Yes illegally. > >>> And then the stupid key from the bottom of my laptops won't even >>> work on it. >> >> Of course not. The OEM key is not the same as the retail key. But you >> don't need the license key to use the Recovery Console from a >> CD. > > Completely worthless and just for show. The Recovery Console is neither worthless or just for show. > That key is never asked for anything. So we are paying for a key that > means nothing. How great is that? It'd help if you paid attention to what was said. When you use the CD this way, you don't use the install key because you aren't installing. You are only using it to boot the system, and log onto an already installed OS. No key is needed, or asked for. It's interesting that when you are given a solution to one of your complaints, your response is to complain. -pk <snipppage>
Guest BillW50 Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes In news:ubQRy9n$IHA.4380@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl, Patrick Keenan typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:34:27 -0400: > "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message > news:%23M$X$zn$IHA.1224@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... >> In news:ec0lBym$IHA.2060@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl, >> Patrick Keenan typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:18:52 -0400: >>> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message >>> news:Ot6WKHm$IHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >>>> In news:eUiCo6l$IHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl, >>>> Malke typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:39:46 -0700: >>>>> billybob wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language >>>>>> installed..looks like french...plus he doesn't know the password >>>>>> to login...It came with the XP install CD (in french !). and >>>>>> licence key ..So on trying to do an new install all the initial >>>>>> boot screen stuff is in french as well. >>>>>> Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his >>>>>> existing PC's XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do >>>>>> a clean install but actually put in the licence key for the >>>>>> french version ?...you get my drift ? Thanks in advance >>>>> >>>>> I get your drift but it won't work. Your friend will need to >>>>> purchase an English version of XP and do a clean install. >>>>> >>>>> http://michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html - Clean Install >>>>> How-To >>>>> http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/page2.html#Reinstalling_Windows >>>>> - What you will need on-hand >>>> >>>> What? Microsoft locks the key into the language of the install? >>>> What the heck for? I physically like to met these people from >>>> Microsoft someday. Better yet, I like to take them to court. >>> >>> Go ahead. I'm sure your lawyer will be happy to take your money. >>> >>> You might want to have a case, first, though. >> >> I take it you never saw the trial between Microsoft and the US. It >> was so very clear that Microsoft was acting stupid! Even the judge >> ruled against them. But want happened? Nothing! The truth is the one >> with the most money wins. But that wouldn't stop me one bit getting >> the truth out. >>>> It is bad enough that I have many OEM versions and I don't have a >>>> Recovery Console option and I have to go out and buy a retail >>>> version of Windows XP just to get it. >>> >>> Well, that's a choice the OEM made, not Microsoft. And they >>> generally make this choice to reduce support costs, removing the >>> need to have customers install XP and then sort through what drivers >>> to install. Instead, the customer just has to insert disks as >>> directed, and at the end the system is complete. >> >> Oh bull! The software states Microsoft and Microsoft is to blame for >> the deals it makes. Don't give me that BS! If Microsoft has any >> respect, they would *never* have their name tarnished. The truth is >> they don't care. Because if they did, they would do something about >> it. I know I would. >>> Are there shortcomings in this? Yes. Does it raise the cost of >>> the product to do it the old way? You bet it does. >> >> Windows 3.1 OEM costs $40 and today Windows XP OEM still costs $40. \> > Perhaps you are unaware of why the OEM price is lower (and it sure > isn't $40 where I am). Well east of the UK from your time stamp. It is about 50 dollars different here and I know OEM pay about 40 bucks a piece for them. > It's because all of the support responsibility goes to the OEM, not > to Microsoft. So MS doesn't have to cover those costs. That is well and fine, but it says Microsoft in the software. MS had to make a deal and sell substandard software to make it happen. >>> So take your pick. You can pay less and get fewer options and less >>> complexity oir you can pay more and get standard options and more >>> complexity. >> >> Microsoft sells substandard software? Gee isn't that what I am >> complainning about? > > It's not what I wrote, is it? No I wrote it. >>> But you can - I have done so - use any bootable XP CD to get to the >>> recovery console, Home or Pro, Retail, OEM, MSDN, it doesn't matter. >> >> This is illegal with OEM versions! > > You're welcome. Welcome for what? > But perhaps you can show where this is ruled illegal in the licensing > agreement. You don't install anything this way. Microsoft on public radio claimed that 30% of Microsoft products sold in Mighigan (ASZ) sold there is illegal. Fine, that is bad and I agree. But nothing was said about the number of honest users that Microsoft has ripped off. >>> You won't be asked for an install key, you are not installing >>> anything, you are simply logging into the Administrator account with >>> a limited subset of XP. >> >> Not even close to a subset! Typing CD\ under a CMD prompt returns you to the root directory. It works all the the way back to '81. Although under the Recovery Console, it is all different and you need a space there. > Perhaps you don't understand what a subset is. Really? Change things in mid flight is no longer a subset? >> I typed CD\ and it doesn't work. It has to be CD \ and when I type >> CHKDSK /F it doesn't work either. They break their own rules. >> >>> Yes, this means that you have to have *a* bootable XP CD on hand. But >>> you can borrow one. You do not have to replace the license >>> from any system to use it. You could copy an existing XP CD for this >>> purpose without anyone complaining too bitterly. >> >> According to Microsoft, you are a pirate if you do so. > > Show where in the licensing agreement this is stated. The key doesn't work so you have to buy another copy. >>> And for most functions of the Recovery Console, you can use a Linux >>> boot CD. >> >> Really? If you don't know a thing about Linux then what? > > Then you get help. Microsoft will help you run Linux? No kidding? I seriously doubt that. >> The software states Microsoft and not Linux. > > What a whiz you are! > >>> And of course, you *could* just install the Recovery Console... >>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307654 >> >> Yes illegally. How can you get the Recovery console if it didn't come with your OEM version (most doesn't)? >>>> And then the stupid key from the bottom of my laptops won't even >>>> work on it. >>> >>> Of course not. The OEM key is not the same as the retail key. But you >>> don't need the license key to use the Recovery Console from >>> a CD. >> >> Completely worthless and just for show. > > The Recovery Console is neither worthless or just for show. Most Windows versions don't have it. Nor did I say that. >> That key is never asked for anything. So we are paying for a key that >> means nothing. How great is that? > > It'd help if you paid attention to what was said. You neversaid anything about all ofmy Windows XP OEM keys. That sticker is worthlee.I never have to enter that key for anything. > When you use the CD this way, you don't use the install key because > you aren't installing. You are only using it to boot the system, > and log onto an already installed OS. No key is needed, or asked > for. No the hard drive crashes and you buy a new hard drive, there is no OS installed. Now is there? > It's interesting that when you are given a solution to one of your > complaints, your response is to complain. I complain because Micosoft complains against pirates. Here I agree. Although they are silent when they screw honest users. So I complain and everybody should do so. As you can't have people paying twice or more for the same thing and not complain, now can you? -- Bill Black Asus EEE PC 4GB 2GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux
Guest Mike Hall - MVP Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message news:OKgu1zn$IHA.1224@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > In news:emOHARn$IHA.3756@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl, > Mike Hall - MVP typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:14:19 -0400: >> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message >> news:%23OLiXGn$IHA.3756@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... >>> In news:uz3L8am$IHA.1016@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl, >>> Mike Hall - MVP typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:37:34 -0400: >>>> "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote in message >>>> news:Ot6WKHm$IHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >>>>> In news:eUiCo6l$IHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl, >>>>> Malke typed on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:39:46 -0700: >>>>>> billybob wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language >>>>>>> installed..looks like french...plus he doesn't know the password >>>>>>> to login...It came with the XP install CD (in french !). and >>>>>>> licence key ..So on trying to do an new install all the initial >>>>>>> boot screen stuff is in french as well. >>>>>>> Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his >>>>>>> existing PC's XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do >>>>>>> a clean install but actually put in the licence key for the >>>>>>> french version ?...you get my drift ? Thanks in advance >>>>>> >>>>>> I get your drift but it won't work. Your friend will need to >>>>>> purchase an English version of XP and do a clean install. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html - Clean Install >>>>>> How-To >>>>>> http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/page2.html#Reinstalling_Windows >>>>>> - What you will need on-hand >>>>> >>>>> What? Microsoft locks the key into the language of the install? >>>>> What the heck for? I physically like to met these people from >>>>> Microsoft someday. Better yet, I like to take them to court. >>>>> >>>>> It is bad enough that I have many OEM versions and I don't have a >>>>> Recovery Console option and I have to go out and buy a retail >>>>> version of Windows XP just to get it. And then the stupid key from >>>>> the bottom of my laptops won't even work on it. >>>>> >>>>> If I sold stuff that didn't work, I would be throw in jail and >>>>> rightly so. But if Microsoft sells stuff that doesn't work, they >>>>> are not thrown in jail. Thus Microsoft is above the law. Something >>>>> is wrong here. And as far as I am concern, MVP's are just as >>>>> guilty. Some of us are smarter than they are, but we can't be >>>>> bought! >>>> >>>> They do work with the appropriate key. Every time that you buy a >>>> copy of Windows, the appropriate key is supplied. >>>> >>>> Re being bought, they say that everybody has a price. What is yours? >>> >>> Luckily there isn't enough money in the world to buy me out. And I >>> dare anybody to try. It won't work! >>> >>> Having said this, out of all the companies out there... I am most >>> grateful that Microsoft is on top. Because they are the nicest out >>> of the bunch. Any anybody else would be far worse. And I am most >>> positive of this. As far as keys, I don't buy that for a moment. For >>> example, this >>> Asus EEE PC came with a DVD that has Ghost v10 and it Ghost the >>> image to the SSD (solid state drive) and the key on the bottom of >>> the machine is useless. It is only for show and doesn't do a dang >>> thing. And Ghost v10 doesn't work with my cheap no name DVD burner >>> from China. But it can read data CD and DVD all day long. Even >>> Windows XP Retail install CDs. So what am I supposed to do? Buy a >>> better DVD burner or buy a retail version of Windows XP? MS rips off >>> the honest customer with the latter of course. No refund from the >>> OEM license that doesn't work and force customers to pay again. If I >>> pulled this off, I would be in jail! >> >> If you want a manufacturer OEM, ask the manufacturer. I don't see >> what your problem is. > > Simple! It doesn't say Joe Blow Software it says Microsoft! If Microsoft > wants to screw honest customers it will reflect on them badly. Something > that many (besides Microsoft) just doesn't get. If I were Microsoft, the > last thing I would do is to upset the end user. But Microsoft doesn't > care, they got their money and they are happy. And the idea that screw the > end user *will* bite them back. They just don't see it. > > -- > Bill > Black Asus EEE PC 4GB 2GB SoDIMM Adata 16GB > Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux > Microsoft doesn't screw customers. The person buying a major manufacturer pre-installed computer gets the operating system at a fraction of the cost of a full retail purchase. Take it up with the manufacturer/vendor. They are the ones who should be telling you that support is provided entirely by them. -- Mike Hall - MVP How to construct a good post.. http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups.. http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?pr=newswhelp&style=toc Mike's Window - My Blog.. http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx
Guest Bruce Chambers Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes billybob wrote: > My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language installed..looks > like french...plus he doesn't know the password to login...It came with the > XP install CD (in french !). and licence key ..So on trying to do an new > install all the initial boot screen stuff is in french as well. > Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his existing PC's XP > Home installation CD (an english version) to do a clean install but actually > put in the licence key for the french version ?...you get my drift ? > Thanks in advance > > Wouldn't work. Product Keys are bound to the specific type and language of CD/license (OEM, Volume, retail, or full) with which they are purchased. For example, a WinXP Home OEM Product Key won't work for any retail version of WinXP Home, or for any version of WinXP Pro, and vice versa. An OEM Product Key will not work to install a retail product. An Italian Product Key will not work with an English CD. Bottom line: Product Keys and CD/license types cannot usually (it's been reported that the Product Key for a full license will work with an Upgrade CD) be mixed & matched. If you friend want an English version of WinXP on that computer, he'll have to buy and English version for it. -- Bruce Chambers Help us help you: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/555375 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has killed a great many philosophers. ~ Denis Diderot
Guest billybob Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 Re: XP Home PC from foreign climes "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message news:Ov2jjWv$IHA.4536@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > billybob wrote: >> My mate has been given a PC which has a foreign language >> installed..looks like french...plus he doesn't know the password to >> login...It came with the XP install CD (in french !). and licence key >> ..So on trying to do an new install all the initial boot screen stuff is >> in french as well. >> Would it be true to say that its ok to boot this PC off his existing PC's >> XP Home installation CD (an english version) to do a clean install but >> actually put in the licence key for the french version ?...you get my >> drift ? >> Thanks in advance > > > Wouldn't work. > > Product Keys are bound to the specific type and language of CD/license > (OEM, Volume, retail, or full) with which they are purchased. For example, > a WinXP Home OEM Product Key won't work for any retail version of WinXP > Home, or for any version of WinXP Pro, and vice versa. An OEM Product Key > will not work to install a retail product. An Italian Product Key will > not work with an English CD. Bottom line: Product Keys and CD/license > types cannot usually (it's been reported that the Product Key for a full > license will work with an Upgrade CD) be mixed & matched. > > If you friend want an English version of WinXP on that computer, he'll > have to buy and English version for it. > > > -- > > Bruce Chambers > > Help us help you: > http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/555375 > > They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin > > Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand > Russell > > The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has > killed a great many philosophers. > ~ Denis Diderot Phew !...Thanks for all the replies...I think I get the gist !..I'll tell him to get his hand in his pocket !!!
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