problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

August 17, 2008

With apologies for the repost - one positive outcome of the first one

was that I discovered that what I thought was a valid cut-and-paste

wasn't: for some reason the two surviving newsgroups have slightly

different punctuations in their name.

(Positive suggestions only, please - the details of my problem have been

lost in the heat on the other thread, and please post to that one if

your only contribution is to say I'm in the wrong place!)

In message <mH$wDTyemupIFw3T@soft255.demon.co.uk>, "J. P. Gilliver

(John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> writes

>'95 'group included as I use the '95 shell, via 98lite "Sleek" option.

>

>I recently had a play with soporific's UBCD, a. k. a. "Windows 98, 10th

>anniversary edition". I think a vast amount of work has gone into it,

>and when installed from scratch as I did on a laptop for a friend, it

>worked well (including the universal USB driver).

>

>However, as with many such things, trying to install over an existing

>system (even though it does include an option to do so) is more

>problematical.

>

>Anyway: I've finally got my original system back, due to use of some

>ERDs from before I tried it, with one exception (that I know so far,

>anyway): it initially manifested as the sound, but I think is more

>fundamental.

>

>My sound isn't working. I've obtained the drivers from the manufacturer

>(A??? motherboard; "Realtek AC'97 Audio"), since I couldn't find the

>mobo CD.

>

>Device Manager shows it, with a black-on-yellow "!". Properties shows

>under Device status "The NTKERN.VXD, MMDEVLDR.VXD device loader(s) for

>this device could not load the device driver. (Code 2.)\\To Fix this,

>click Update Driver to update the device driver." When I do, I get the

>usual wizard. Whether I let this look for the right driver (they're

>sort of in place, the install software having done its stuff to that

>extent, or I unzipped something, I can't remember) or I tell it where

>to look, I get to the "Please wait while Windows searches ...", then I

>get a - old-fashioned style, no close button - window in screen middle

>that says "Rundll32\\An error has occurred in your program. To keep

>working anyway..." and Close and Ignore buttons. If I click Ignore,

>nothing happens; Close brings up a (Windows style this time) "This

>program has performed an illegal ..." with Close and Details>> buttons.

>If I close this, all windows (back to and including Device Manger) disappear.

>

>If I remove the Realtek from Device Manager and restart, I get found

>new hardware, with various windows appearing as normal, then it locks

>up (I can't remember with what error message): if I Ctrl-alt-Del at

>that point, I can get back to a blank desktop (no icons or taskbar,

>just a mouse pointer). The only way out of that (it happens again if I

>restart) is to use the old ERD again.

>

>My Rundll32 file is fine (I never suspected it anyway, as it usually

>gets "blamed" when something else goes wrong, but I have checked it).

>

>I get something similar when trying to install another piece of

>hardware (a microscope - i. e. basically a camera - and I am doing it

>according to the instructions, i. e. drivers before connecting):

>_something_ crashes, at the point after it's "found" the new hardware

>and is doing whatever it does next at that point.

>

>Any suggestions what is wrong and how to fix it? (Getting sound back

>would be a start, but I suspect that needs the problem solving anyway.)

>

>[it may not be UBCD that screwed things up, but I know at least one

>poster who will think it did ... (-:]

--

J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my

shoulders."

Newton [deliberately] misquoted by Hal Ableson, then quoted by chris harrison.

August 17, 2008

Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Try using Safe Mode to remove ALL old drivers [any sound or problem

devices].

Look at the installation files in the folder from which you installed the

purported driver [look at the inf{s}], make note of registry entries created

and where files were placed and names.

Run regedit, search for the RealTek entries and remove - search the INF

folder for the Realtek INF{s} and delete - remove all files that were

installed as shown by the install INFs.

LOCATE a better driver... check to ensure the card is properly seated,

install the new driver....

When using an unofficial updater its usually best to install devices

[except USB/Firewire] and applications PRIOR to installing/updating with the

compilation.

--

MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in message

news:YQZPmGLGN3pIFwAm@soft255.demon.co.uk...

| With apologies for the repost - one positive outcome of the first one

| was that I discovered that what I thought was a valid cut-and-paste

| wasn't: for some reason the two surviving newsgroups have slightly

| different punctuations in their name.

|

| (Positive suggestions only, please - the details of my problem have been

| lost in the heat on the other thread, and please post to that one if

| your only contribution is to say I'm in the wrong place!)

|

| In message <mH$wDTyemupIFw3T@soft255.demon.co.uk>, "J. P. Gilliver

| (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> writes

| >'95 'group included as I use the '95 shell, via 98lite "Sleek" option.

| >

| >I recently had a play with soporific's UBCD, a. k. a. "Windows 98, 10th

| >anniversary edition". I think a vast amount of work has gone into it,

| >and when installed from scratch as I did on a laptop for a friend, it

| >worked well (including the universal USB driver).

| >

| >However, as with many such things, trying to install over an existing

| >system (even though it does include an option to do so) is more

| >problematical.

| >

| >Anyway: I've finally got my original system back, due to use of some

| >ERDs from before I tried it, with one exception (that I know so far,

| >anyway): it initially manifested as the sound, but I think is more

| >fundamental.

| >

| >My sound isn't working. I've obtained the drivers from the manufacturer

| >(A??? motherboard; "Realtek AC'97 Audio"), since I couldn't find the

| >mobo CD.

| >

| >Device Manager shows it, with a black-on-yellow "!". Properties shows

| >under Device status "The NTKERN.VXD, MMDEVLDR.VXD device loader(s) for

| >this device could not load the device driver. (Code 2.)\\To Fix this,

| >click Update Driver to update the device driver." When I do, I get the

| >usual wizard. Whether I let this look for the right driver (they're

| >sort of in place, the install software having done its stuff to that

| >extent, or I unzipped something, I can't remember) or I tell it where

| >to look, I get to the "Please wait while Windows searches ...", then I

| >get a - old-fashioned style, no close button - window in screen middle

| >that says "Rundll32\\An error has occurred in your program. To keep

| >working anyway..." and Close and Ignore buttons. If I click Ignore,

| >nothing happens; Close brings up a (Windows style this time) "This

| >program has performed an illegal ..." with Close and Details>> buttons.

| >If I close this, all windows (back to and including Device Manger)

disappear.

| >

| >If I remove the Realtek from Device Manager and restart, I get found

| >new hardware, with various windows appearing as normal, then it locks

| >up (I can't remember with what error message): if I Ctrl-alt-Del at

| >that point, I can get back to a blank desktop (no icons or taskbar,

| >just a mouse pointer). The only way out of that (it happens again if I

| >restart) is to use the old ERD again.

| >

| >My Rundll32 file is fine (I never suspected it anyway, as it usually

| >gets "blamed" when something else goes wrong, but I have checked it).

| >

| >I get something similar when trying to install another piece of

| >hardware (a microscope - i. e. basically a camera - and I am doing it

| >according to the instructions, i. e. drivers before connecting):

| >_something_ crashes, at the point after it's "found" the new hardware

| >and is doing whatever it does next at that point.

| >

| >Any suggestions what is wrong and how to fix it? (Getting sound back

| >would be a start, but I suspect that needs the problem solving anyway.)

| >

| >[it may not be UBCD that screwed things up, but I know at least one

| >poster who will think it did ... (-:]

|

| --

| J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985

MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

| ** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on

PCs. **

|

| "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing

on my

| shoulders."

| Newton [deliberately] misquoted by Hal Ableson, then quoted by chris

harrison.

August 17, 2008

Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

"...after installing a new, breed of 98Lite." You really need to fix that

Subject.

Here's the most positive advice I can give you. If you have problems with

that cross-bred child of Windows and Linux, you not only do yourself a

disservice by not dealing with them in a forum dedicated to the topic, you

also do a great disservice to the average Joe or Jane who goes searching for

procedures for their stock Windows 98 machines and happens onto this thread

half way through, sees the subject, sees a bunch of procedures that appear

to apply to his situation, and which (with any luck) do end up working for

you, but which don't apply to his machine in the slightest and which in fact

do his system a great deal of harm.

The least you could do, if you're going to *hijack* a newsgroup like this,

would be to make it clear what you're talking about in the Subject.

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in message

news:YQZPmGLGN3pIFwAm@soft255.demon.co.uk...

> With apologies for the repost - one positive outcome of the first one was

> that I discovered that what I thought was a valid cut-and-paste wasn't:

> for some reason the two surviving newsgroups have slightly different

> punctuations in their name.

>

> (Positive suggestions only, please - the details of my problem have been

> lost in the heat on the other thread, and please post to that one if your

> only contribution is to say I'm in the wrong place!)

>

> In message <mH$wDTyemupIFw3T@soft255.demon.co.uk>, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

> <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> writes

>>'95 'group included as I use the '95 shell, via 98lite "Sleek" option.

>>

>>I recently had a play with soporific's UBCD, a. k. a. "Windows 98, 10th

>>anniversary edition". I think a vast amount of work has gone into it, and

>>when installed from scratch as I did on a laptop for a friend, it worked

>>well (including the universal USB driver).

>>

>>However, as with many such things, trying to install over an existing

>>system (even though it does include an option to do so) is more

>>problematical.

>>

>>Anyway: I've finally got my original system back, due to use of some ERDs

>>from before I tried it, with one exception (that I know so far, anyway):

>>it initially manifested as the sound, but I think is more fundamental.

>>

>>My sound isn't working. I've obtained the drivers from the manufacturer

>>(A??? motherboard; "Realtek AC'97 Audio"), since I couldn't find the mobo

>>CD.

>>

>>Device Manager shows it, with a black-on-yellow "!". Properties shows

>>under Device status "The NTKERN.VXD, MMDEVLDR.VXD device loader(s) for

>>this device could not load the device driver. (Code 2.)\\To Fix this,

>>click Update Driver to update the device driver." When I do, I get the

>>usual wizard. Whether I let this look for the right driver (they're sort

>>of in place, the install software having done its stuff to that extent, or

>>I unzipped something, I can't remember) or I tell it where to look, I get

>>to the "Please wait while Windows searches ...", then I get a -

>>old-fashioned style, no close button - window in screen middle that says

>>"Rundll32\\An error has occurred in your program. To keep working

>>anyway..." and Close and Ignore buttons. If I click Ignore, nothing

>>happens; Close brings up a (Windows style this time) "This program has

>>performed an illegal ..." with Close and Details>> buttons. If I close

>>this, all windows (back to and including Device Manger) disappear.

>>

>>If I remove the Realtek from Device Manager and restart, I get found new

>>hardware, with various windows appearing as normal, then it locks up (I

>>can't remember with what error message): if I Ctrl-alt-Del at that point,

>>I can get back to a blank desktop (no icons or taskbar, just a mouse

>>pointer). The only way out of that (it happens again if I restart) is to

>>use the old ERD again.

>>

>>My Rundll32 file is fine (I never suspected it anyway, as it usually gets

>>"blamed" when something else goes wrong, but I have checked it).

>>

>>I get something similar when trying to install another piece of hardware

>>(a microscope - i. e. basically a camera - and I am doing it according to

>>the instructions, i. e. drivers before connecting): _something_ crashes,

>>at the point after it's "found" the new hardware and is doing whatever it

>>does next at that point.

>>

>>Any suggestions what is wrong and how to fix it? (Getting sound back would

>>be a start, but I suspect that needs the problem solving anyway.)

>>

>>[it may not be UBCD that screwed things up, but I know at least one poster

>>who will think it did ... (-:]

>

> --

> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985

> MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

> ** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on

> PCs. **

>

> "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing

> on my

> shoulders."

> Newton [deliberately] misquoted by Hal Ableson, then quoted by chris

> harrison.

August 17, 2008

RE: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

I would install a clean, full version of Windows 98 Second Edition which you

can fully update to date of July 11, 2006 as per end of support date for 98

Second Edition. There are full copies on Ebay that range from around $50-$75

for an os which is really cheap and 98 Second Edition really does have that

internal safety of dos as its maintenance operating system.

My opinion is that Microsoft chose the wrong development path when choosing

NT over 9x and I hope the new source code Microsoft develops is awesome and

combines the best of 9x and its maintenance operating system of dos with a

new advanced underlying maintenance operating system of NT, with the external

security of Vista and totally redefines computing in a complex and less

toy-like manner of recent operating systems.

You can mitigate risks such as to Internet Explorer by using the latest

version of Mozilla Firefox, tools such as SpywareBlaster which imo is awesome

and my favorite blocking tool for undesirables that try to get onto your

system, read in plain text and block external remote code including html,

have a router with the proper defensive measures for external security, etc.

August 17, 2008

Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

In message <ehW8QcAAJHA.528@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl>, MEB

<meb@not.here.invalid> writes

>Try using Safe Mode to remove ALL old drivers [any sound or problem

>devices].

>

>Look at the installation files in the folder from which you installed the

>purported driver [look at the inf{s}], make note of registry entries created

>and where files were placed and names.

> Run regedit, search for the RealTek entries and remove - search the INF

>folder for the Realtek INF{s} and delete - remove all files that were

>installed as shown by the install INFs.

Thanks; this is the sort of help I was after, of course.

However, I don't think it is the driver as such that is faulty; the odd

behaviour seems to happen at some point during the loading process -

and, I get something not dissimilar when attempting to load something

entirely different (a microscope, which is in effect a webcam). I don't

think it is the driver(s) as such, nor the rundll32 file.

>

>LOCATE a better driver... check to ensure the card is properly seated,

>install the new driver....

>

> When using an unofficial updater its usually best to install devices

>[except USB/Firewire] and applications PRIOR to installing/updating with the

>compilation.

[]

I have no option in this case anyway, as the hardware is the mobo's

built-in sound hardware. (And I don't _think_ there was a link to

disable it.) If I remove (the software/driver) from Device Manager and

reboot, it does the found new hardware bit, but then crashes

irretrievably while trying to load the drivers (which I've located from

the motherboard's website). If I do it without rebooting, it still

crashes, but I can get control back (I just accept a few error boxes and

it is back as it was, just still with no sound).

--

J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my

shoulders."

Newton [deliberately] misquoted by Hal Ableson, then quoted by chris harrison.

August 17, 2008

Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

In message <#KkDJGEAJHA.1016@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>, Gary S. Terhune

<none@?.?.invalid> writes

>"...after installing a new, breed of 98Lite." You really need to fix that

>Subject.

Well, I'm _not_ convinced that 98lite it the cause of the problem (I

have tried reverting to the full '98 shell to see, in fact); I didn't

specifically put it in the subject because of this - I feel doing so may

make people who may have a solution ignore the thread.

>

>Here's the most positive advice I can give you. If you have problems with

>that cross-bred child of Windows and Linux, you not only do yourself a

Interesting - does 98lite have something to do with Linux then? (I ask

with no baggage: I'm just genuinely interested.)

>disservice by not dealing with them in a forum dedicated to the topic, you

Hmm, I was unaware there were any, but I've done a search after your

post, and I see that both of the newsservers I use actually include

fido7.su.f98lite, which I have now subscribed to; I suspect the "su"

means it'll be in Finnish (which I don't speak), but I'll report back.

>also do a great disservice to the average Joe or Jane who goes searching for

>procedures for their stock Windows 98 machines and happens onto this thread

>half way through, sees the subject, sees a bunch of procedures that appear

>to apply to his situation, and which (with any luck) do end up working for

>you, but which don't apply to his machine in the slightest and which in fact

>do his system a great deal of harm.

I take your point; I'll endeavour to ensure that some mention of 98lite

remains in the body of any post I put into the thread. (Though I still

maintain that it's not the cause of the problem; the problem did not

exist - on a machine that had been running 98lite for years - until I

tried something of soporific's. Now while I don't fully share your views

on _that_ either, I do agree that it was a dangerous thing to do without

more knowledge than I have, and am hoping to find out what it broke.)

>

>The least you could do, if you're going to *hijack* a newsgroup like this,

>would be to make it clear what you're talking about in the Subject.

>

Well, I'll try to keep some warning in the body. I'm not "hijacking the

newsgroup".

--

J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my

shoulders."

Newton [deliberately] misquoted by Hal Ableson, then quoted by chris harrison.

August 17, 2008

Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

In message <856CDA41-8D55-4A99-82D0-EB3ECD215D33@microsoft.com>, Dan

<Dan@discussions.microsoft.com> writes

><snipped for length concerns>

>

>I would install a clean, full version of Windows 98 Second Edition which you

>can fully update to date of July 11, 2006 as per end of support date for 98

>Second Edition. There are full copies on Ebay that range from around $50-$75

>for an os which is really cheap and 98 Second Edition really does have that

>internal safety of dos as its maintenance operating system.

I have a full 98SE (which I paid for), should I need to go that route -

though I am beginning to feel that, if I was to consider going for a

full install (by "clean" I assume you mean formatting), I'd probably go

for XP anyway. I really don't want to do that (98 or XP) though, as the

system has been built up over _years_, and I don't even _know_ (at the

very least, I don't remember - in some cases I suspect I really don't

know) some of how it got to how it is, so reinstalling everything would

be not only time-consuming but frustrating.

>My opinion is that Microsoft chose the wrong development path when choosing

>NT over 9x and I hope the new source code Microsoft develops is awesome and

Mine too, but we're not going to change them. Also, we're in a minority,

at least as far as the disc system is concerned.

>combines the best of 9x and its maintenance operating system of dos with a

>new advanced underlying maintenance operating system of NT, with the external

>security of Vista and totally redefines computing in a complex and less

>toy-like manner of recent operating systems.

I think the *x people are calling you ... (-: [it certainly won't happen

in Windows )-:]

>You can mitigate risks such as to Internet Explorer by using the latest

>version of Mozilla Firefox, tools such as SpywareBlaster which imo is awesome

I do (or will one of these days - I'm using Netscape 7.2 ATM)

>and my favorite blocking tool for undesirables that try to get onto your

>system, read in plain text and block external remote code including html,

I read in a reader (Turnpike) that doesn't follow any scripts or

similar, I control Java and Javascript ... haven't had a virus in

decades, AFAIK ...

>have a router with the proper defensive measures for external security, etc.

Yup.

I think that what has broken my system is not malware as such, just

something in soporific's UBCD (or, as he would point out, one of the

constituent parts to which all he's done is provide a wrapper), which

has changed/deleted/altered some file and/or setting in a way which has

had unforeseen consequences (basically something goes wrong when it's

trying to _load_ drivers). I'm just hoping someone has seen something

similar before and knows what has been broken. (Ideally someone using

98lite, but I don't want to exclude suggestions from anyone.)

--

J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my

shoulders."

Newton [deliberately] misquoted by Hal Ableson, then quoted by chris harrison.

August 17, 2008

Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

I see you installed something new from soporific, what was it?

I have outlined what would likely be the normal procedure in this situation

and the procedure when installing an un-official compilation. Perhaps it

might be beneficial for you to outline what you have already done. You

should also note that unless you follow the procedures and updates/patch

process being used in unofficial patchings by the creator of the patch, your

results will likely NOT reflect the same success.

That type of process requires one be prepared to re-install an image should

the testing fail or corrupt one's system.

--

MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in message

news:2$$0NjmT6DqIFw+D@soft255.demon.co.uk...

| In message <ehW8QcAAJHA.528@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl>, MEB

| <meb@not.here.invalid> writes

| >Try using Safe Mode to remove ALL old drivers [any sound or problem

| >devices].

| >

| >Look at the installation files in the folder from which you installed the

| >purported driver [look at the inf{s}], make note of registry entries

created

| >and where files were placed and names.

| > Run regedit, search for the RealTek entries and remove - search the INF

| >folder for the Realtek INF{s} and delete - remove all files that were

| >installed as shown by the install INFs.

|

| Thanks; this is the sort of help I was after, of course.

|

| However, I don't think it is the driver as such that is faulty; the odd

| behaviour seems to happen at some point during the loading process -

| and, I get something not dissimilar when attempting to load something

| entirely different (a microscope, which is in effect a webcam). I don't

| think it is the driver(s) as such, nor the rundll32 file.

| >

| >LOCATE a better driver... check to ensure the card is properly seated,

| >install the new driver....

| >

| > When using an unofficial updater its usually best to install devices

| >[except USB/Firewire] and applications PRIOR to installing/updating with

the

| >compilation.

| []

| I have no option in this case anyway, as the hardware is the mobo's

| built-in sound hardware. (And I don't _think_ there was a link to

| disable it.) If I remove (the software/driver) from Device Manager and

| reboot, it does the found new hardware bit, but then crashes

| irretrievably while trying to load the drivers (which I've located from

| the motherboard's website). If I do it without rebooting, it still

| crashes, but I can get control back (I just accept a few error boxes and

| it is back as it was, just still with no sound).

| --

| J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985

MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

| ** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on

PCs. **

|

| "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing

on my

| shoulders."

| Newton [deliberately] misquoted by Hal Ableson, then quoted by chris

harrison.

August 17, 2008

AFTER INSTALLING/UNINSTALLING 98LITE Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

AFTER INSTALLING/UNINSTALLING 98LITE Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in message

news:d4JOs6nLHEqIFwqK@soft255.demon.co.uk...

> In message <#KkDJGEAJHA.1016@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>, Gary S. Terhune

> <none@?.?.invalid> writes

>>"...after installing a new, breed of 98Lite." You really need to fix that

>>Subject.

>

> Well, I'm _not_ convinced that 98lite it the cause of the problem (I have

> tried reverting to the full '98 shell to see, in fact); I didn't

> specifically put it in the subject because of this - I feel doing so may

> make people who may have a solution ignore the thread.

If you'll notice, nobody is responding to it, anyway, except me. Your

statement "I have tried to revert...." is exactly what takes this out of the

realm of stock Windows 98. You can't fix a problem until you know what it

is, and in this case the problem is almost certainly caused by a serious

screwing up of your system caused by your experiment. And, possibly, due to

your total lack of preparation for said experiment by making sure you have

the drivers to install your system stored carefully away, preferably in a

couple of places. In short, you did not approach your adventure with any

kind of responsible preparation. Note your phrase, "I have tried reverting

to the '98 shell..."

>>

>>Here's the most positive advice I can give you. If you have problems with

>>that cross-bred child of Windows and Linux, you not only do yourself a

>

> Interesting - does 98lite have something to do with Linux then? (I ask

> with no baggage: I'm just genuinely interested.)

As far as code goes, nothing (I presume.) I was referring to the fact that

98Lite and it's brethren tear the 98 OS into pieces, rip out whole chunks,

and then (and here's where the Linux reference comes in), replace it (or

rather, some of it) with homegrown, "Open Source"--style code. Then claim

that because it still has the 98 kernel, it's Windows 98, just tweaked.

That's a load of bullcrap. At that point, it is no longer Windows 98 in the

slightest. Note your phrase, above: "I have tried reverting to the '98

shell..." Far more than the kernel, it is the shell that defines an OS from

the point of view of the user, and just because some nerds want to turn that

logic on its head doesn't mean squat.

You've got two problems.

1. You don't have a functional '98 machine anymore because you ripped out

huge chunks and replaced them, and then the aptly named "soporific"

obviously either didn't do a good enough job with the installer (referring

to it's uninstall functions) or didn't expect anyone to bother trying to go

back to the original shell. And you, due to total lack of foresight and

professionalism, haven't the slightest idea just how different from your

original system your current one is, just how much DLL Hell exists, etc., ad

infinitum.

2.You don't have the original drivers for your Win98 system. That's just a

failure on your part, period. I don't think it would mater if you did --

what you describe doesn't sound like it's at all that simple, sounds more

like rampant DLL Hell in the Hardware/PnP/Drivers installation layer. I

won't go through all the steps in my logic, but if it were my machine, and I

just wanted to get my real Windows 98 back, it would have been flattened and

rebuilt by now.

Except that you still apparently want to play with the big boys and make it

your holy grail to find out what went wrong and fix it. Problems is, you

didn't set out with a pro's mentality, you just slapped the thing in and

went for broke. I do that on one or more of my test machine regularly, but

not even on a separate partition of my main work machine. Only on totally

throw-away boxes. Believe it or not, software CAN wreck hardware, and more

importantly, what gets installed on one partition may not behave and STAY on

that partition and totally leave the others untouched. Windows XP and even

more, Vista, are excellent examples of this. I do install all of them on

adjacent partitions on my main machine, but I also know fairly well what

they will do to each other, and I generally keep them at least mostly hidden

from each other and ameliorate the rest.

But then, I'm pretty much the same brand of fool that you are. That's how I

learned Windows 98. Install it, do whatever I can to it, while keeping track

of what happens when I install this or that, until I get myself into such a

deep hole, I'd reformat and reinstall. I did that up to a dozen times a day,

over 300 times in the first year I owned it, until I got it right or gave up

on whatever application or hardware I was playing with. I've had to curb

that restlessness since then, due to my having to actually use this machine

for real work and to store vast archives of raster and vector graphics files

so that I can pull them up at a moments notice. (They are, of course,

regularly backed up to CD or DVD.) But to learn anything in that kind of

reckless environment I was speaking of, you have to keep total track of what

is happening at every moment. Otherwise, the exercise is a total waste of

time. You, being accustomed to having access to excellent support forums

where you can try your best to rescue your bacon from the fire, seem to have

relied upon that as your last-resort rescue strategy, instead.

At all times, even now with my main XP installation (that has four other

Windows OS partitions that I multi-boot), I am always conscious of the fact

that I might lose the use of it at any moment and constantly ask myself what

will I do in that case, with, of course, dozens upon dozens of possible

strategies available to ponder and perfect (even practice) while I wait for

the inevitable -- and that is how you have to think about computers: That it

is inevitable that at any moment it will be destroyed, with absolutely

nothing to recover, neither hardware or data, a blackened chunk of melted

metal and silicon, ready for immediate delivery to the recycler.

>>disservice by not dealing with them in a forum dedicated to the topic, you

>

> Hmm, I was unaware there were any, but I've done a search after your post,

> and I see that both of the newsservers I use actually include

> fido7.su.f98lite, which I have now subscribed to; I suspect the "su" means

> it'll be in Finnish (which I don't speak), but I'll report back.

Doesn't look to me like there's even a forum for 98Lite, let alone

associated hackers. Which does nothing but lower my already low opinion of

the product and the crowd that uses it. Unless maybe if you pay for

98Lite... there's a member's login -- maybe there's a forum hiding in there.

Otherwise, it indicates to me that there is no seriousness on the part of

these cross-breeders. That they're just a bunch of silly hackers who don't

give a crap about anyone else, especially not the people who are interested

in supporting their efforts, if not with money, then with ideas and

feedback. That's how the people I know who have developed very successful

applications for computers have always conducted their business. Seeks

experts to get behind their effort and have a very open and lively forum.

Instead, you great experimenters have *hijacked* the MS groups to deal with

98Lite issues, which is about as much a Windows 98 issue as AOL, which is to

say not at all. Difference is, most AOL users knew better than to hijack a

real Windows group for their problems, because they're essentially told from

the outset that standard Windows procedures and advice regarding

configuration and repair, etc., don't apply once AOL is installed, and AOL

properly provides many forums and volunteer assistants (Nannies, Mommies, I

forget what they call themselves -- my sister-in-law has been doing it for

years.) This is at least historically true. I haven't kept up with AOL in

recent years, but it seems to me that they have at least lessoned their

efforts to reprogram the OS, and instead learned to work within its bounds.

>>also do a great disservice to the average Joe or Jane who goes searching

>>for

>>procedures for their stock Windows 98 machines and happens onto this

>>thread

>>half way through, sees the subject, sees a bunch of procedures that appear

>>to apply to his situation, and which (with any luck) do end up working for

>>you, but which don't apply to his machine in the slightest and which in

>>fact

>>do his system a great deal of harm.

>

> I take your point; I'll endeavour to ensure that some mention of 98lite

> remains in the body of any post I put into the thread. (Though I still

> maintain that it's not the cause of the problem; the problem did not

> exist - on a machine that had been running 98lite for years - until I

> tried something of soporific's. Now while I don't fully share your views

> on _that_ either, I do agree that it was a dangerous thing to do without

> more knowledge than I have, and am hoping to find out what it broke.)

>>

>>The least you could do, if you're going to *hijack* a newsgroup like this,

>>would be to make it clear what you're talking about in the Subject.

>>

> Well, I'll try to keep some warning in the body. I'm not "hijacking the

> newsgroup".

I honestly beg to differ. Hijack these NGs is exactly what you did, not that

you had much choice. But your issue is NOT a Windows 98 issue, it's a 98Lite

issue. And 98Lite users, if they have any respect whatsoever for the stock

98 users that regularly attend these groups, they'd get their own room.

Otherwise, they're no less obnoxious than any other trolls.

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

August 18, 2008

Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Well, I appreciate your feedback, however, I thought Netscape was not

supported anymore and so that would give you safety and security

vulnerabilities just with using that browser. In addition, why not just go

with Ubuntu Linux instead of Windows 98 Lite and use a real operating system

instead whether it be Microsoft Windows, Apple, and or Unix/Linux? Chris

Quirke, MVP has some great feedback about the external security of NT (2000,

XP and Vista) and internal safety of 9x (98 Second Edition at its peak, imo)

and perhaps it may help you if you read his websites.

http://cquirke.blogspot.com/

http://cquirke.mvps.org/9x/

http://cquirke.mvps.org/9x/riskfix.htm

http://www.us-cert.gov/current/

http://onecare.live.com/site/en-au/default.htm?mkt=en-au

http://www.microsoft.com/security/default.mspx

http://www.grystmill.com/articles/security.htm

Hopefully, these websites will help you to have a secure and safe computing

environment.

August 20, 2008

Re: AFTER INSTALLING/UNINSTALLING 98LITE Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Re: AFTER INSTALLING/UNINSTALLING 98LITE Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in

news:qIzDAgWjm4qIFwOH@soft255.demon.co.uk:

> In message <ODofbeKAJHA.4148@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, Gary S.

> Terhune <none@?.?.invalid> writes

<SNIP>

> I thought a troll was someone who deliberately posted

> something inflammatory, hoping to start a flamewar or

> similar. I certainly didn't intend to do that - mine was

> (and still is) a genuine request of the "has anyone else

> come across anything like this, and know what the cause is"

> sort.

Don't waste your time with Terhune and 98SELite. He has said

more than once he does not consider it a Windows OS. Then he

loves spouting off about how he can't help you since he deals

with Windows and not (apparent) figments of imagination of

thousands of happy Lite users around the world. Then he freaks

out and gets belligerent.

--

[from a recent conversation]

thanatoid: So why did you decide you needed broadband?

Neighbor: I wanted to read my e-mail faster.

August 20, 2008

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in

news:j4rBM+WAo4qIFwMb@soft255.demon.co.uk:

> In message <e1fkC8mAJHA.1180@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>, Gary S.

> Terhune <none@?.?.invalid> writes

>>Just to keep me happy, eh? So you really don't care about

>>the innocent user who might stumble upon this thread and

>>not realize that it isn't about Windows 98?

>>

> I do, actually.

See what I mean? According to Terhune, Windows xLite is NOT

Windows. I have asked him to show me a single file in

Win98SELite which did not come from MS, but he prefers to argue

in ignorance and refuses to even look at the program. After all,

it's a figment of our imagination.

--

[from a recent conversation]

thanatoid: So why did you decide you needed broadband?

Neighbor: I wanted to read my e-mail faster.

August 20, 2008

Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

In message <##sF8ZIAJHA.4992@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl>, MEB

<meb@not.here.invalid> writes

>I see you installed something new from soporific, what was it?

It was the full UBCD, but with the option - which it offers - to install

over an existing system, keeping settings etcetera. I should have known

better - this sort of thing is always better done as a full clean

install. And I don't _really_ hold soporific responsible.

>

> I have outlined what would likely be the normal procedure in this situation

>and the procedure when installing an un-official compilation. Perhaps it

>might be beneficial for you to outline what you have already done. You

The installation proceeded quite far, but did get to a point (after one

- I think - reboot) where it went into a loop, repeatedly encountering

some error message.

>should also note that unless you follow the procedures and updates/patch

>process being used in unofficial patchings by the creator of the patch, your

>results will likely NOT reflect the same success.

> That type of process requires one be prepared to re-install an image should

>the testing fail or corrupt one's system.

[]

Indeed. I managed to restore my system to how I had it by use of an ERD

saveset from before I started with UBCD; this is not a full image, but

is a Microsoft utility. Unfortunately, as I've only discovered

subsequently, it (a) didn't bring back sound - which I didn't notice

immediately - and (b) has damaged _some_thing involved with the loading

of drivers in general. (I've now found it with _three_ things - the

sound, the microscope [webcam], and a new USB stick.)

To keep some people happy I will say: I am using 98lite; any advice

given may not be applicable to those who are not.

--

J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

it is no use hitting all the targets and missing the point. - chief executive of

the Disability and Carers Service, quoted in computing, 23 March 2006, page 26.

August 20, 2008

OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Just to keep me happy, eh? So you really don't care about the innocent user

who might stumble upon this thread and not realize that it isn't about

Windows 98?

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in message

news:an7$LCUB+3qIFw6+@soft255.demon.co.uk...

> In message <##sF8ZIAJHA.4992@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl>, MEB

> <meb@not.here.invalid> writes

>

> To keep some people happy I will say: I am using 98lite; any advice given

> may not be applicable to those who are not.

August 20, 2008

Re: AFTER INSTALLING/UNINSTALLING 98LITE Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Re: AFTER INSTALLING/UNINSTALLING 98LITE Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

In message <ODofbeKAJHA.4148@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, Gary S. Terhune

<none@?.?.invalid> writes

[]

>If you'll notice, nobody is responding to it, anyway, except me. Your

>statement "I have tried to revert...." is exactly what takes this out of the

>realm of stock Windows 98. You can't fix a problem until you know what it

This reversion is one of the functions offered by 98lite - a shell swap,

between the 95 shell and the 98 shell. (It does more than just change

explorer.exe and shell32.dll - it also amends several files, such as

notepad.exe, such that they work properly with whichever shell.)

>is, and in this case the problem is almost certainly caused by a serious

>screwing up of your system caused by your experiment. And, possibly, due to

I am pretty sure you are right there.

>your total lack of preparation for said experiment by making sure you have

>the drivers to install your system stored carefully away, preferably in a

I have the drivers for the sound circuitry. The problem does not seem to

be the drivers themselves, but the process (?) which handles the

installation of (any) driver: when I add new hardware (or delete the

sound circuitry and then reboot), I get the usual "found new hardware",

and either it finds the drivers or I tell it where they are, and it

starts to load them - and then I get the rundll32 error box.

[]

>> Interesting - does 98lite have something to do with Linux then? (I ask

>> with no baggage: I'm just genuinely interested.)

>

>As far as code goes, nothing (I presume.) I was referring to the fact that

>98Lite and it's brethren tear the 98 OS into pieces, rip out whole chunks,

>and then (and here's where the Linux reference comes in), replace it (or

>rather, some of it) with homegrown, "Open Source"--style code. Then claim

>that because it still has the 98 kernel, it's Windows 98, just tweaked.

>That's a load of bullcrap. At that point, it is no longer Windows 98 in the

>slightest. Note your phrase, above: "I have tried reverting to the '98

>shell..." Far more than the kernel, it is the shell that defines an OS from

>the point of view of the user, and just because some nerds want to turn that

>logic on its head doesn't mean squat.

I'm confused by the difference between "shell" and "kernel" in what you

say above; it seems to me that you mean different things by the two

terms. (Please don't gloat in your answer! If I don't ask, I won't

learn, will I!)

>

>You've got two problems.

>1. You don't have a functional '98 machine anymore because you ripped out

>huge chunks and replaced them, and then the aptly named "soporific"

>obviously either didn't do a good enough job with the installer (referring

>to it's uninstall functions) or didn't expect anyone to bother trying to go

>back to the original shell. And you, due to total lack of foresight and

>professionalism, haven't the slightest idea just how different from your

>original system your current one is, just how much DLL Hell exists, etc., ad

>infinitum.

Well, my "shredded" system had been working fairly reliably for several

years before I tried the soporific stuff.

>

>2.You don't have the original drivers for your Win98 system. That's just a

>failure on your part, period. I don't think it would mater if you did --

I almost certainly _do_ still have the original motherboard CD somewhere

- I certainly wouldn't throw something like that out; however, I've

moved house since I built the PC. I went to the motherboard

manufacturer's website and fetched a - Windows 98 - driver for the only

part that isn't working, the sound circuitry.

>what you describe doesn't sound like it's at all that simple, sounds more

>like rampant DLL Hell in the Hardware/PnP/Drivers installation layer. I

>won't go through all the steps in my logic, but if it were my machine, and I

>just wanted to get my real Windows 98 back, it would have been flattened and

>rebuilt by now.

If I were going to do that, I think I'd go for XP.

>

>Except that you still apparently want to play with the big boys and make it

>your holy grail to find out what went wrong and fix it. Problems is, you

I'm very puzzled why you consider this to be such a satanic wish: what,

exactly, is wrong with wanting to know what has gone wrong?

>didn't set out with a pro's mentality, you just slapped the thing in and

>went for broke. I do that on one or more of my test machine regularly, but

No, I did an ERD, which though not a complete backup by any means, has

nearly always allowed me to restore a working system in the past. In the

very few cases where it hasn't, it has got me back to a situation where

I just had to reinstall one piece of software (usually Easy CD Creator)

manually.

>not even on a separate partition of my main work machine. Only on totally

>throw-away boxes. Believe it or not, software CAN wreck hardware, and more

I remember there was (allegedly - I never investigated!) a command you

could type on the Commodore PET that would cause it to do harm to

itself! But yes, even on PCs, there certainly are things. (I suppose

some of the utilities that thoroughly exercise bits of the system - such

as hard drives, or in extremis processors, are the most likely these

days, but I'm sure there are some unexpected ones too.)

>importantly, what gets installed on one partition may not behave and STAY on

>that partition and totally leave the others untouched. Windows XP and even

>more, Vista, are excellent examples of this. I do install all of them on

>adjacent partitions on my main machine, but I also know fairly well what

>they will do to each other, and I generally keep them at least mostly hidden

>from each other and ameliorate the rest.

>

>But then, I'm pretty much the same brand of fool that you are. That's how I

>learned Windows 98. Install it, do whatever I can to it, while keeping track

>of what happens when I install this or that, until I get myself into such a

>deep hole, I'd reformat and reinstall. I did that up to a dozen times a day,

>over 300 times in the first year I owned it, until I got it right or gave up

>on whatever application or hardware I was playing with. I've had to curb

Wow! Well, it was the (presumed) expertise that I sensed you had

developed as a result of all that, that I'd hoped I could tap into.

[]

>At all times, even now with my main XP installation (that has four other

>Windows OS partitions that I multi-boot), I am always conscious of the fact

>that I might lose the use of it at any moment and constantly ask myself what

>will I do in that case, with, of course, dozens upon dozens of possible

>strategies available to ponder and perfect (even practice) while I wait for

Well, except for actual hardware failure or perhaps FAT corruption, I am

fairly certain I can extract my _data_ files, if necessary by booting

into DOS. (I frequently dump them to CD as well.)

>the inevitable -- and that is how you have to think about computers: That it

>is inevitable that at any moment it will be destroyed, with absolutely

>nothing to recover, neither hardware or data, a blackened chunk of melted

>metal and silicon, ready for immediate delivery to the recycler.

Indeed.

>

>>>disservice by not dealing with them in a forum dedicated to the topic, you

>>

>> Hmm, I was unaware there were any, but I've done a search after your post,

>> and I see that both of the newsservers I use actually include

>> fido7.su.f98lite, which I have now subscribed to; I suspect the "su" means

>> it'll be in Finnish (which I don't speak), but I'll report back.

>

>Doesn't look to me like there's even a forum for 98Lite, let alone

Well, I've now loaded some posts from that, and they're certainly not in

a language I can understand - it could well be Finnish.

>associated hackers. Which does nothing but lower my already low opinion of

>the product and the crowd that uses it. Unless maybe if you pay for

>98Lite... there's a member's login -- maybe there's a forum hiding in there.

What is your opinion of TweakUI, and the other PowerTools?

>Otherwise, it indicates to me that there is no seriousness on the part of

>these cross-breeders. That they're just a bunch of silly hackers who don't

>give a crap about anyone else, especially not the people who are interested

>in supporting their efforts, if not with money, then with ideas and

>feedback. That's how the people I know who have developed very successful

>applications for computers have always conducted their business. Seeks

>experts to get behind their effort and have a very open and lively forum.

Agreed - or, do it all themself, but still have plenty of dialog (about

both problems and suggestions) with the users. A couple of examples of

that, I would say, are Irfan Skiljan's IrfanView, John Steed's Brother's

Keeper (genealogy software), and GoldWave (sound editing); all of these,

but particularly the first two, deal openly with the users. I have

actually bought all of these (and some others), even though at least one

(IrfanView) is free for home use, as I believe in encouraging them.

[]

>years.) This is at least historically true. I haven't kept up with AOL in

>recent years, but it seems to me that they have at least lessoned their

>efforts to reprogram the OS, and instead learned to work within its bounds.

Just about - I've had to do battle with it for a friend recently, and it

still seems to have very much its own way of doing things, at least the

interface to BB, for no advantage to the user that I can see.

[]

>I honestly beg to differ. Hijack these NGs is exactly what you did, not that

>you had much choice. But your issue is NOT a Windows 98 issue, it's a 98Lite

>issue. And 98Lite users, if they have any respect whatsoever for the stock

>98 users that regularly attend these groups, they'd get their own room.

>Otherwise, they're no less obnoxious than any other trolls.

>

I thought a troll was someone who deliberately posted something

inflammatory, hoping to start a flamewar or similar. I certainly didn't

intend to do that - mine was (and still is) a genuine request of the

"has anyone else come across anything like this, and know what the cause

is" sort.

--

J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

it is no use hitting all the targets and missing the point. - chief executive

of

the Disability and Carers Service, quoted in computing, 23 March 2006, page 26.

August 20, 2008

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

In message <e1fkC8mAJHA.1180@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>, Gary S. Terhune

<none@?.?.invalid> writes

>Just to keep me happy, eh? So you really don't care about the innocent user

>who might stumble upon this thread and not realize that it isn't about

>Windows 98?

>

I do, actually.

--

J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

it is no use hitting all the targets and missing the point. - chief executive

of

the Disability and Carers Service, quoted in computing, 23 March 2006, page 26.

August 20, 2008

Re: AFTER INSTALLING/UNINSTALLING 98LITE Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Re: AFTER INSTALLING/UNINSTALLING 98LITE Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in message

news:qIzDAgWjm4qIFwOH@soft255.demon.co.uk...

> In message <ODofbeKAJHA.4148@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, Gary S. Terhune

> <none@?.?.invalid> writes

> []

>>If you'll notice, nobody is responding to it, anyway, except me. Your

>>statement "I have tried to revert...." is exactly what takes this out of

>>the

>>realm of stock Windows 98. You can't fix a problem until you know what it

>

> This reversion is one of the functions offered by 98lite - a shell swap,

> between the 95 shell and the 98 shell. (It does more than just change

> explorer.exe and shell32.dll - it also amends several files, such as

> notepad.exe, such that they work properly with whichever shell.)

The reversion function failed this time, which is a 98Lite problem, not a

Windows 98 problem. Please take it to a 98Lite forum.

>>is, and in this case the problem is almost certainly caused by a serious

>>screwing up of your system caused by your experiment. And, possibly, due

>>to

>

> I am pretty sure you are right there.

>

>>your total lack of preparation for said experiment by making sure you have

>>the drivers to install your system stored carefully away, preferably in a

>

> I have the drivers for the sound circuitry. The problem does not seem to

> be the drivers themselves, but the process (?) which handles the

> installation of (any) driver: when I add new hardware (or delete the sound

> circuitry and then reboot), I get the usual "found new hardware", and

> either it finds the drivers or I tell it where they are, and it starts to

> load them - and then I get the rundll32 error box.

Then I must have misread an earlier post that I thought said you couldn't

decently reinstall the system from scratch because you lacked all the

drivers. I in no way thought that the sound drivers were to blame, as I

explain farther down.

>>> Interesting - does 98lite have something to do with Linux then? (I ask

>>> with no baggage: I'm just genuinely interested.)

>>

>>As far as code goes, nothing (I presume.) I was referring to the fact that

>>98Lite and it's brethren tear the 98 OS into pieces, rip out whole chunks,

>>and then (and here's where the Linux reference comes in), replace it (or

>>rather, some of it) with homegrown, "Open Source"--style code. Then claim

>>that because it still has the 98 kernel, it's Windows 98, just tweaked.

>>That's a load of bullcrap. At that point, it is no longer Windows 98 in

>>the

>>slightest. Note your phrase, above: "I have tried reverting to the '98

>>shell..." Far more than the kernel, it is the shell that defines an OS

>>from

>>the point of view of the user, and just because some nerds want to turn

>>that

>>logic on its head doesn't mean squat.

>

> I'm confused by the difference between "shell" and "kernel" in what you

> say above; it seems to me that you mean different things by the two terms.

> (Please don't gloat in your answer! If I don't ask, I won't learn, will

> I!)

These may not be the best explanations, but they'll do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_%28computer_science%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(computing)

>>

>>You've got two problems.

>>1. You don't have a functional '98 machine anymore because you ripped out

>>huge chunks and replaced them, and then the aptly named "soporific"

>>obviously either didn't do a good enough job with the installer (referring

>>to it's uninstall functions) or didn't expect anyone to bother trying to

>>go

>>back to the original shell. And you, due to total lack of foresight and

>>professionalism, haven't the slightest idea just how different from your

>>original system your current one is, just how much DLL Hell exists, etc.,

>>ad

>>infinitum.

>

> Well, my "shredded" system had been working fairly reliably for several

> years before I tried the soporific stuff.

You've had 98Lite installed for years? Regardless, I didn't say that 98Lite

doesn't work, I say that installing it shreds your Windows 98 system. And

that's exactly what it does. That's its *intent*. The rip out great gobs of

Windows 98 that the creators and users don't want in there. Fine, but it is

no longer Windows 98 and I doubt that it's even close to possible to restore

a functioning Windows 98 System once 98Lite has been installed.

>>2.You don't have the original drivers for your Win98 system. That's just a

>>failure on your part, period. I don't think it would mater if you did --

>

> I almost certainly _do_ still have the original motherboard CD somewhere -

> I certainly wouldn't throw something like that out; however, I've moved

> house since I built the PC. I went to the motherboard manufacturer's

> website and fetched a - Windows 98 - driver for the only part that isn't

> working, the sound circuitry.

Again, that was a misread on my part and I've clearly explained what I think

is wrong in another in the next paragraph.

>>what you describe doesn't sound like it's at all that simple, sounds more

>>like rampant DLL Hell in the Hardware/PnP/Drivers installation layer. I

>>won't go through all the steps in my logic, but if it were my machine, and

>>I

>>just wanted to get my real Windows 98 back, it would have been flattened

>>and

>>rebuilt by now.

>

> If I were going to do that, I think I'd go for XP.

If you've been running Windows 98 and/or 98Lite for "years" on that machine,

I doubt it's built to handle XP in any manner that would satisfy you. But I

don't know the machine's specs, so I'm just guessing.

>>Except that you still apparently want to play with the big boys and make

>>it

>>your holy grail to find out what went wrong and fix it. Problems is, you

>

> I'm very puzzled why you consider this to be such a satanic wish: what,

> exactly, is wrong with wanting to know what has gone wrong.

Absolutely nothing! You just didn't prepare for your experiment in a manner

that would have allowed you to determine what went wrong. You have no data

from your experiment except that you installed it, then tried to get out and

can't. Beyond that, you only have my *guess* that the issue is in the

hardware installation programming.

>>didn't set out with a pro's mentality, you just slapped the thing in and

>>went for broke. I do that on one or more of my test machine regularly, but

>

> No, I did an ERD, which though not a complete backup by any means, has

> nearly always allowed me to restore a working system in the past. In the

> very few cases where it hasn't, it has got me back to a situation where I

> just had to reinstall one piece of software (usually Easy CD Creator)

> manually.

So I hope you've learned a valuable lesson from this. Just because you got

away with half-measure tools in the past (ERD, SCANREGW /BACKUP, Windows

ME/XP/Vista's System Restore) NOTHING takes the place of a full backup that

can be quickly restored to a reformatted or new hard drive.

>>not even on a separate partition of my main work machine. Only on totally

>>throw-away boxes. Believe it or not, software CAN wreck hardware, and more

>

> I remember there was (allegedly - I never investigated!) a command you

> could type on the Commodore PET that would cause it to do harm to itself!

> But yes, even on PCs, there certainly are things. (I suppose some of the

> utilities that thoroughly exercise bits of the system - such as hard

> drives, or in extremis processors, are the most likely these days, but I'm

> sure there are some unexpected ones too.)

>

>>importantly, what gets installed on one partition may not behave and STAY

>>on

>>that partition and totally leave the others untouched. Windows XP and even

>>more, Vista, are excellent examples of this. I do install all of them on

>>adjacent partitions on my main machine, but I also know fairly well what

>>they will do to each other, and I generally keep them at least mostly

>>hidden

>>from each other and ameliorate the rest.

>>

>>But then, I'm pretty much the same brand of fool that you are. That's how

>>I

>>learned Windows 98. Install it, do whatever I can to it, while keeping

>>track

>>of what happens when I install this or that, until I get myself into such

>>a

>>deep hole, I'd reformat and reinstall. I did that up to a dozen times a

>>day,

>>over 300 times in the first year I owned it, until I got it right or gave

>>up

>>on whatever application or hardware I was playing with. I've had to curb

>

> Wow! Well, it was the (presumed) expertise that I sensed you had developed

> as a result of all that, that I'd hoped I could tap into.

Nope. If I haven't made it plain, yet, I think your system is totally hosed.

If you can't get into it, then an Overinstall of Win98 might get it working

sufficiently well enough that you can more easily copy off your personal

files before reformatting and reinstalling from scratch..

>>At all times, even now with my main XP installation (that has four other

>>Windows OS partitions that I multi-boot), I am always conscious of the

>>fact

>>that I might lose the use of it at any moment and constantly ask myself

>>what

>>will I do in that case, with, of course, dozens upon dozens of possible

>>strategies available to ponder and perfect (even practice) while I wait

>>for

>

> Well, except for actual hardware failure or perhaps FAT corruption, I am

> fairly certain I can extract my _data_ files, if necessary by booting into

> DOS. (I frequently dump them to CD as well.)

Extract your data files in DOS to where? You have a DOS CD burning utility?

Easiest way is to put the drive into another machine and use that machine to

back up the files to CD or DVD (or get an external drive if your system is

new enough that BIOS sees and recognizes them, then use a bootable CD system

like BartPE to copy the files from your system to the external HD.) Now that

I say that, I think there are bootable CD systems out there that include

burner utilities. Might check them out.

>>the inevitable -- and that is how you have to think about computers: That

>>it

>>is inevitable that at any moment it will be destroyed, with absolutely

>>nothing to recover, neither hardware or data, a blackened chunk of melted

>>metal and silicon, ready for immediate delivery to the recycler.

>

> Indeed.

>>

>>>>disservice by not dealing with them in a forum dedicated to the topic,

>>>>you

>>>

>>> Hmm, I was unaware there were any, but I've done a search after your

>>> post,

>>> and I see that both of the newsservers I use actually include

>>> fido7.su.f98lite, which I have now subscribed to; I suspect the "su"

>>> means

>>> it'll be in Finnish (which I don't speak), but I'll report back.

>>

>>Doesn't look to me like there's even a forum for 98Lite, let alone

>

> Well, I've now loaded some posts from that, and they're certainly not in a

> language I can understand - it could well be Finnish.

>

>>associated hackers. Which does nothing but lower my already low opinion of

>>the product and the crowd that uses it. Unless maybe if you pay for

>>98Lite... there's a member's login -- maybe there's a forum hiding in

>>there.

>

> What is your opinion of TweakUI, and the other PowerTools?

For the most part, I think they are too dangerous for the average user. I

don't use them, I prefer to do things manually for the most part. The short

and sweet is that I don't trust them, and every one of them contains

functions that can wreck your system, either immediately or in the form of a

time bomb. Using TUI to get rid of IE4 integration into Win98 was one such.

I forget what the actual wording is of the settings involved, but once they

were involved, it turned out the functions they supposedly "turned off"

ended up completely hosed, with some secondary damage that was MUCH worse

than just not being able to view the desktop as a webpage. IOW, the

presumably simple tweaks had hidden parts that you aren't warned about and

that most people found out they wanted after all. Coincidentally, those

functions are among the same exact things 98Lite hoses.

>>Otherwise, it indicates to me that there is no seriousness on the part of

>>these cross-breeders. That they're just a bunch of silly hackers who don't

>>give a crap about anyone else, especially not the people who are

>>interested

>>in supporting their efforts, if not with money, then with ideas and

>>feedback. That's how the people I know who have developed very successful

>>applications for computers have always conducted their business. Seeks

>>experts to get behind their effort and have a very open and lively forum.

>

> Agreed - or, do it all themself, but still have plenty of dialog (about

> both problems and suggestions) with the users. A couple of examples of

> that, I would say, are Irfan Skiljan's IrfanView, John Steed's Brother's

> Keeper (genealogy software), and GoldWave (sound editing); all of these,

> but particularly the first two, deal openly with the users. I have

> actually bought all of these (and some others), even though at least one

> (IrfanView) is free for home use, as I believe in encouraging them.

> []

>>years.) This is at least historically true. I haven't kept up with AOL in

>>recent years, but it seems to me that they have at least lessoned their

>>efforts to reprogram the OS, and instead learned to work within its

>>bounds.

>

> Just about - I've had to do battle with it for a friend recently, and it

> still seems to have very much its own way of doing things, at least the

> interface to BB, for no advantage to the user that I can see.

> []

>>I honestly beg to differ. Hijack these NGs is exactly what you did, not

>>that

>>you had much choice. But your issue is NOT a Windows 98 issue, it's a

>>98Lite

>>issue. And 98Lite users, if they have any respect whatsoever for the stock

>>98 users that regularly attend these groups, they'd get their own room.

>>Otherwise, they're no less obnoxious than any other trolls.

>>

> I thought a troll was someone who deliberately posted something

> inflammatory, hoping to start a flamewar or similar. I certainly didn't

> intend to do that - mine was (and still is) a genuine request of the "has

> anyone else come across anything like this, and know what the cause is"

> sort.

There has been plenty of trollish behavior on the part of 98Lite promoters

in this group over the more recent years. Sorry, but in my eyes, you are

guilty by association. But that wasn't my primary intent, to call you a

troll, only "just as bad" as the others who *are* trolls. More accurately,

to define "hijacking a group" as a troll-like behavior, especially if it is

deliberately done and/or continues even after it's been pointed out to

someone less in the know what he's actually, even if unwittingly, doing.

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

August 20, 2008

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Just wanted to be sure. So how about you either stop this thread that isn't

going anywhere useful, or make sure you change the Subject line if you

should happen to get a response that actually does anything about your

original issue? Make yourself useful and flatten/rebuild your hosed system.

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in message

news:j4rBM+WAo4qIFwMb@soft255.demon.co.uk...

> In message <e1fkC8mAJHA.1180@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>, Gary S. Terhune

> <none@?.?.invalid> writes

>>Just to keep me happy, eh? So you really don't care about the innocent

>>user

>>who might stumble upon this thread and not realize that it isn't about

>>Windows 98?

>>

> I do, actually.

> --

> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985

> MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

> ** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on

> PCs. **

>

> it is no use hitting all the targets and missing the point. - chief

> executive

> of

> the Disability and Carers Service, quoted in computing, 23 March 2006,

> page 26.

August 20, 2008

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

In message <Xns9B00A0A3D3E0thanexit@66.250.146.158>, thanatoid

<waiting@the.exit.invalid> writes

>"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in

>news:j4rBM+WAo4qIFwMb@soft255.demon.co.uk:

>

>> In message <e1fkC8mAJHA.1180@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>, Gary S.

>> Terhune <none@?.?.invalid> writes

>>>Just to keep me happy, eh? So you really don't care about

>>>the innocent user who might stumble upon this thread and

>>>not realize that it isn't about Windows 98?

>>>

>> I do, actually.

>

>See what I mean? According to Terhune, Windows xLite is NOT

>Windows. I have asked him to show me a single file in

>Win98SELite which did not come from MS, but he prefers to argue

>in ignorance and refuses to even look at the program. After all,

>it's a figment of our imagination.

>

Well, to be fair, I rather suspect 98lite.exe is not M$ (-:

--

J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

it is no use hitting all the targets and missing the point. - chief executive

of

the Disability and Carers Service, quoted in computing, 23 March 2006, page 26.

August 20, 2008

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

In message <OIm0xApAJHA.4512@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>, Gary S. Terhune

<none@?.?.invalid> writes

>Just wanted to be sure. So how about you either stop this thread that isn't

>going anywhere useful, or make sure you change the Subject line if you

>should happen to get a response that actually does anything about your

>original issue? Make yourself useful and flatten/rebuild your hosed system.

>

Oh, I certainly will (though I see you've done so anyway) - _if_ anyone

does come up with an actual suggestion (of something I might try, rather

than just of what might be wrong. And I know you've suggested a complete

reinstallation). I rather fear that anyone who might, has been

frightened off.

I will answer your longer post later; despite what some may think, I

like to try to remain on speaking terms with everybody!

--

J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

it is no use hitting all the targets and missing the point. - chief executive

of

the Disability and Carers Service, quoted in computing, 23 March 2006, page 26.

August 20, 2008

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

You can tell the King of Idiots that his statement is about as stupid as any

I've seen him make. The issue isn't whether the crap is built from MS files,

it's that they aren't Windows 98 files, in their entirety, as distributed

under the name "Windows 98 Operating System". It's a butchery of Windows 98,

regardless of the goals, efficacy or failures that result.

You can chop off the top of a certain type of fruit tree (I don't remember

which, but let's say it's a pear tree) and graft all kinds of other closely

related fruit trees onto it. You no longer have a pear tree, it will never

produce pears, even though it has a "kernel" that can be called "pear". Yes,

it produces fruit, but they are not pears. It is no longer a "pear tree" and

a club devoted to the growth and care of pear trees would have nothing to do

with your grafted monstrosity and probably vote you out of the club and show

you the door with little to say other than, "Good Luck. Hope you can find

someone to help you with that one graft that's failing. But you and your

tree don't belong here."

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in message

news:Sx1duhh4u8qIFwKj@soft255.demon.co.uk...

> In message <Xns9B00A0A3D3E0thanexit@66.250.146.158>, thanatoid

> <waiting@the.exit.invalid> writes

>>"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in

>>news:j4rBM+WAo4qIFwMb@soft255.demon.co.uk:

>>

>>> In message <e1fkC8mAJHA.1180@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>, Gary S.

>>> Terhune <none@?.?.invalid> writes

>>>>Just to keep me happy, eh? So you really don't care about

>>>>the innocent user who might stumble upon this thread and

>>>>not realize that it isn't about Windows 98?

>>>>

>>> I do, actually.

>>

>>See what I mean? According to Terhune, Windows xLite is NOT

>>Windows. I have asked him to show me a single file in

>>Win98SELite which did not come from MS, but he prefers to argue

>>in ignorance and refuses to even look at the program. After all,

>>it's a figment of our imagination.

>>

> Well, to be fair, I rather suspect 98lite.exe is not M$ (-:

> --

> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985

> MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

> ** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on

> PCs. **

>

> it is no use hitting all the targets and missing the point. - chief

> executive

> of

> the Disability and Carers Service, quoted in computing, 23 March 2006,

> page 26.

August 20, 2008

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

Re: OT 98Lite ISSUE_Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in

news:Sx1duhh4u8qIFwKj@soft255.demon.co.uk:

> In message <Xns9B00A0A3D3E0thanexit@66.250.146.158>,

> thanatoid <waiting@the.exit.invalid> writes

>>"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote

>>in news:j4rBM+WAo4qIFwMb@soft255.demon.co.uk:

>>

>>> In message <e1fkC8mAJHA.1180@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>, Gary

>>> S. Terhune <none@?.?.invalid> writes

>>>>Just to keep me happy, eh? So you really don't care about

>>>>the innocent user who might stumble upon this thread and

>>>>not realize that it isn't about Windows 98?

>>>>

>>> I do, actually.

>>

>>See what I mean? According to Terhune, Windows xLite is NOT

>>Windows. I have asked him to show me a single file in

>>Win98SELite which did not come from MS, but he prefers to

>>argue in ignorance and refuses to even look at the program.

>>After all, it's a figment of our imagination.

>>

> Well, to be fair, I rather suspect 98lite.exe is not M$ (-:

Yes, but that file is NOT in the OS! It's the customizer! It's

like saying that if the BIOS is not made by MS, it's not a

Windows machine!

(I should have said "in a finished Win98SELite install".)

--

[from a recent conversation]

thanatoid: So why did you decide you needed broadband?

Neighbor: I wanted to read my e-mail faster.

August 20, 2008

Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers in 98lite with UBCD

Re: problems apparently with rundll32 when loading drivers in 98lite with UBCD

In news:an7$LCUB+3qIFw6+@soft255.demon.co.uk ,

J. P. Gilliver (John) contemplated and posted:

| In message <##sF8ZIAJHA.4992@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl>, MEB

| <meb@not.here.invalid> writes

|>I see you installed something new from soporific, what was it?

|

| It was the full UBCD, but with the option - which it offers - to

| install over an existing system, keeping settings etcetera. I should

| have known better - this sort of thing is always better done as a

| full clean install. And I don't _really_ hold soporific responsible.

Well you shouldn't, no one knows whether these things will work perfectly

on everyone's system.

BTW: the UBCD of this discussion is soporific's *Unattended Boot &

Installation CD* ** NOT** the Universal Boot CD, for testing and diagnostic

purposes.

IF I'm reading this and your other posts correctly: Your issue stems from a

*MIXED modified system*. 98Lite removes system files AND modifies registry

settings during its modification process, so does soporific's UBCD. Many of

these MODs require some of the IE5/6 files [and depending upon the MOD, IE

updates] be installed within the system.

|>

|> I have outlined what would likely be the normal procedure in this

|>situation and the procedure when installing an un-official

|>compilation. Perhaps it might be beneficial for you to outline what

|>you have already done. You

|

| The installation proceeded quite far, but did get to a point (after

| one - I think - reboot) where it went into a loop, repeatedly

| encountering some error message.

The problem likely arose with the massive device changes being made within

the system, During the process USB [a universal driver is installed] and

other devices [PCI, firewire, etc.] were being changed. Depending upon where

in the process it failed, the registry may not have been fully updated

[which appears to be the issue].

Potenially, you could physically remove all added adapters from the system,

which *might* allow booting to Safe Mode. From there, you may be able to

remove *all* adapters shown in Device Manager. This DID work for me once

upon a time during my testing of some of the older MODs.

As an additional FYI for potential MOD users: you will find these work

better if you uninstall/physically remove USB/Firewire devices [not the

software] *prior* to attempting the installation.

|

|>should also note that unless you follow the procedures and

|>updates/patch process being used in unofficial patchings by the

|>creator of the patch, your results will likely NOT reflect the same

|>success.

|> That type of process requires one be prepared to re-install an image

|>should the testing fail or corrupt one's system.

| []

| Indeed. I managed to restore my system to how I had it by use of an

| ERD saveset from before I started with UBCD; this is not a full

| image, but is a Microsoft utility. Unfortunately, as I've only

| discovered subsequently, it (a) didn't bring back sound - which I

| didn't notice immediately - and (b) has damaged _some_thing involved

| with the loading of drivers in general. (I've now found it with

| _three_ things - the sound, the microscope [webcam], and a new USB

| stick.)

|

| To keep some people happy I will say: I am using 98lite; any advice

| given may not be applicable to those who are not.

Again, the UBCD installs the universal driver package [among other device

changes]. That universal driver package DOES require the removal of ALL USB

and Firewire devices prior to its installation.

Wish I could be more help, but since you are stuck in a loop of failed

software installation, in a *dual modified* system, much of what I would

potentially suggest will not be viable.

*IF* Safe Mode can be entered after removing the devices, run through the

file re-registration processes outlined within the Microsoft KBs PRIOR to

re-installing the removed adapters..

Looks something like this from the Run or Prompt:

regsvr32 {switches} {some DLL}

--

MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

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