Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

August 22, 2008

This presents a legitimate question for software developers

updating their programs.

To my recollection, the last 98 computer was sold in 2001. That

would make the last sold computer seven years old. You would

think that the number of such systems still around would be near

zero.

Yet, anecdotally, lots of 98 users seem to be around. They speak

up on newsgroups and forums. They still seem to like their

systems and boast of not changing their operating systems. Still

having a ten year old operating system does reflect some

sophistication of computer skills.

I have long wondered if there is any reliable quantitative

measure of continuing 98 users. Various measures surface from

time to time most all of which seem to raise doubts of the

accuracy of the numbers and the interests of who is publishing

them. The question of what portion of the universe the numbers

reflect always seems problematic.

I recently came across a measure, that while hardly perfect,

appears to be objective, not subject to anyone's special

influence, and relevant to the issue.

I found on the Guliverkli2 site counts of downloads of win98

files and winxp versions at

https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=205650&pac

kage_id=246121&release_id=541232 and

https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=205650&pac

kage_id=245753&release_id=540363

While the absolute numbers might be problematic, the proportion

of win 98 to win xp users would seem to be significant as an

approximate measure of a continuing 98 user base for purposes of

software developers of similar programs.

The first program was Media Player Classic 6.4.9.1. This is an

excellent program that puts its developers in the software hall

of fame. It plays lots of files well. The download counts are

98 15,417 (12%)

xp 100,239 (88%)

There is nothing special about this program for 98. Other

similar programs, zoom player and vlc player, too run on 98.

The other page was for directvobsub. The numbers were

98 2,053 (24%)

xp 6,568 (76%)

The fact that 12% of the persons downloading the win 98 version

of the program, a OS version not sold commercially in seven

years, would indicate a still significant base of sophisticated

users keeping their software current consistent with the number

of 98 users raising their voice on news groups and forums.

This would contradict the claim heard from the Pacific Northwest

that no one uses 98 any more.

August 22, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

> There is nothing special about this program for 98. Other

> similar programs, zoom player and vlc player, too run on 98.

>

that may be so smithy,, but i d/loaded vlc player using 98se and Still cant get it to work!

something about an 'error' and 'file missing' blah blah...

if you got any tips on how to make it work, i'm all fingers and toes... (ears)

5strings (one short)

August 22, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

"Smith" <smith@no-spam.com> wrote in message

news:%233K%23KUDBJHA.524@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

> To my recollection, the last 98 computer was sold in 2001. That

> would make the last sold computer seven years old. You would

> think that the number of such systems still around would be near

> zero.

The last Win98 PC I bought new was custom-built to my

specifications in July 2004. Reasons for this included hardware

and software; e.g. my WP is Borland Sprint, an MS-DOS

implementation of Emacs, that requires a DOS-capable

printer. (Some manufacturers e.g. Brother still offer DOS-capable

printers.)

The PC hardware and software markets were focussed a

decade ago on security (firewalls, antivirus screens etc.)

and secondarily multiple functions in office applications.

(E.g. office word processors now are configured

for fancy printing, watermarks etc., and to borrow tabular

data from related software; this makes the software

bulky and slow although, when writing a legal brief or a

student essay, we do not need fancy printing etc.)

The market has changed in two respects. It now

emphasizes security less (because security apps are

now built into the Operating System and processing

power maintains operating speed) and instead

offers multimedia entertainment (TV and music via

Internet.) Entertainment software has improved

enormously in the last decade (and is supported

by hardware improvements) but changes in office

software are largely cosmetic.

Planned obsolence appears to characterize the

market in the 21st century in ways not done in the

20th, probably because of collapsing prices. My

first three PCs, 1983 to about 1993, each cost new

close too $2500. (This generated a useful rule when

planning to upgrade: first design a dream machine,

then watch component prices so as to buy when the

total cost fell to $2500.) But my fourth and fifth cost

less than $1000 each. Most recently I bought (used)

one year ago a complete WinXP PC (1.5 GHz, 512 Mb

RAM, 40 Gb HDD) for $125 including an excellent

22" monitor, now networked wireless with my 2.8 GHz

WinXP PC (new 2004.)

Appropriate hardware and software meets all my current

functional needs. Functionalism is prima facie not the

way the market works, but we can leave to philosophers

market directions (pop music and role-playing games)

and market prices (willingly paid by office IT purchasers,

i.e. spending other peoples' money.) Yes, I sometimes

buy toys too, if they seem to be functional as well, so

have an eye on the irresistibly cute Eee, perhaps for

Christmas . . .

--

Don Phillipson

Carlsbad Springs

(Ottawa, Canada)

August 22, 2008

RE: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

There are still quite a few 98 users out there but many may not be hooked up

to the Internet or hook up only to get drivers. I say this with pride while

posting in Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition. I also use XP Professional

Service Pack 3 with this dual-boot computer, briefly dabbled with Ubuntu

Linux and plan to work with it more in the future and have a generic run of

the mill Toshiba Windows Vista Laptop that is now being repaired by Toshiba

because of hardware issues including faulty biometrics that kept messing up.

The Real or should I say Reel <movies -- grin> Deal is this -- do you want

to use Windows 9x consumer source code, Windows NT business source code,

Unix/Linux, etc. and what is the flavor of os's you prefer and why. In

addition, how will you protect and safeguard 9x through use of 3rd party

software like Mozilla Firefox and SpywareBlaster. BTW, Chris Quirke, mvp

from Africa understands the internal safety of 9x and the external security

of NT. You can just "Google" his name for Chris's Blog and other interesting

stuff.

"Smith" wrote:

> This presents a legitimate question for software developers

> updating their programs.

>

> To my recollection, the last 98 computer was sold in 2001. That

> would make the last sold computer seven years old. You would

> think that the number of such systems still around would be near

> zero.

>

> Yet, anecdotally, lots of 98 users seem to be around. They speak

> up on newsgroups and forums. They still seem to like their

> systems and boast of not changing their operating systems. Still

> having a ten year old operating system does reflect some

> sophistication of computer skills.

>

> I have long wondered if there is any reliable quantitative

> measure of continuing 98 users. Various measures surface from

> time to time most all of which seem to raise doubts of the

> accuracy of the numbers and the interests of who is publishing

> them. The question of what portion of the universe the numbers

> reflect always seems problematic.

>

> I recently came across a measure, that while hardly perfect,

> appears to be objective, not subject to anyone's special

> influence, and relevant to the issue.

>

> I found on the Guliverkli2 site counts of downloads of win98

> files and winxp versions at

> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=205650&pac

> kage_id=246121&release_id=541232 and

> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=205650&pac

> kage_id=245753&release_id=540363

>

> While the absolute numbers might be problematic, the proportion

> of win 98 to win xp users would seem to be significant as an

> approximate measure of a continuing 98 user base for purposes of

> software developers of similar programs.

>

> The first program was Media Player Classic 6.4.9.1. This is an

> excellent program that puts its developers in the software hall

> of fame. It plays lots of files well. The download counts are

>

> 98 15,417 (12%)

> xp 100,239 (88%)

>

> There is nothing special about this program for 98. Other

> similar programs, zoom player and vlc player, too run on 98.

>

> The other page was for directvobsub. The numbers were

>

> 98 2,053 (24%)

> xp 6,568 (76%)

>

> The fact that 12% of the persons downloading the win 98 version

> of the program, a OS version not sold commercially in seven

> years, would indicate a still significant base of sophisticated

> users keeping their software current consistent with the number

> of 98 users raising their voice on news groups and forums.

>

> This would contradict the claim heard from the Pacific Northwest

> that no one uses 98 any more.

>

August 22, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

Smith <smith@no-spam.com> wrote in

news:#3K#KUDBJHA.524@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl:

> This presents a legitimate question for software

> developers updating their programs.

>

> To my recollection, the last 98 computer was sold in 2001.

> That would make the last sold computer seven years old.

> You would think that the number of such systems still

> around would be near zero.

<SNIP>

I am doing this on a 166MHz / 96MB RAM made in Sept. 97 running

Win95B. With a 33.6 modem. I am certain that it is faster than

any Vista machine at basic computing tasks, although it

obviously can not do video editing, and a music format

conversion takes about 5 hrs for a 4 minute song, nor can it

play games at 1600x1200 150 fps, but aside from that, it works

perfectly and never crashes.

Not to mention I NEVER have to upgrade or patch ANYTHING.

Because I do a lot of music stuff, I bought a 2002 (2003?) used

2GHz/256MB RAM Compaq EVO D510 which originally had XP pro on it

(still has the license sticker) but came with a wiped HD which

checked out "factory new". I put 98SELite on it. It is not

connected to the internet. It does everything I could possibly

want to do. I have been lucky in that it is working perfectly so

far as well. But it is apparently a pretty good Compaq, good

components and was quite expensive when new.

--

[from a recent conversation]

thanatoid: So why did you decide you needed broadband?

Neighbor: I wanted to read my e-mail faster.

August 22, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

"gibson" <guitar@fretwork.com> wrote in

news:e#yqG5DBJHA.2032@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl:

>

>> There is nothing special about this program for 98. Other

>> similar programs, zoom player and vlc player, too run on

>> 98.

>>

>

> that may be so smithy,, but i d/loaded vlc player using

> 98se and Still cant get it to work! something about an

> 'error' and 'file missing' blah blah... if you got any tips

> on how to make it work, i'm all fingers and toes... (ears)

>

> 5strings (one short)

I don't get the 5 strings thing. If you broke a guitar string,

you replace it!

Anyway...

There is a file called unicows.dll. I believe it is an exe

(IIRC, contains a second file, unicows.pdb), and the installer

puts them somewhere. If it doesn't put them in the VLC

directory, move them there.

It has to be downloaded separately, it does not (to my

recollection) come with the VLC package, but it is avail. on the

same site (and presumably many driver sites).

I installed VLC a couple of years ago, but I imagine this is the

same problem - which I was able to resolve by reading the info

;-)

Let me know if this helped.

--

[from a recent conversation]

thanatoid: So why did you decide you needed broadband?

Neighbor: I wanted to read my e-mail faster.

August 22, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

Thanks Don and I see that as part of the problem nowadays because solutions

are built into software rather than hardware. The issue is that software is

easier to manipulate and break than hardware.

For example, in a cell phone, a hacker may send the user's phone a baddie to

annihilate the user's cell phone. I am not pleased that current phones

unlike let us say older Motorola cell phones allow you to reprogram the cell

phone using let us say *228 and then default the user back to the default

<duh> password thus allowing the hacking of the cell phone to proceed if the

remote hacker knows the default <not to hard to guess usually--- many times

the last 4 digits of the cell phone> password.

Security and Safety with wireless really is a big joke to me and makes me

laugh and not just with cell phones but also wireless corded phones. It just

takes the proper equipment monitoring the proper frequency to jam, disrupt

and cause issues for the end user. Nowadays, even with a corded phone, I

suggest to users to use a DSL filter to filter out interference in the phone

lines and potential problems.

The entire industry at least here in the U.S.A. has gotten away from the

internal safety model and are relying on external security much to the

stupidity of the entire industry in the States. I will not go into any more

proof of concept code but let it be known that it is being done know and the

only reason I am writing this is to hopefully wake up the industry so that

the electronics industry gets a new clue as to the problem facing users and

itself. BTW, this was bound to happen and I am so thankful to Dan K. and his

research with DNS Pollution so hopefully now Apple, AT&T, Verizon Wireless,

Verizon, etc. can Wake Up and Smell the Coffee shall we say and get with the

program of not tying software as one and keeping it seperate. The important

part about history is to learn from it and use what works in the past in the

present. Let us hopefully not be so dumb as a nation, in the States and also

the world that we just have an open door policy to hackers with their strong

computers and bot networks. <this could be posted in

microsoft.public.security but is not since I have no desire for a 40+ debate

this time around>

Finally, the responsiblity must fall on everyone:

1. The End User

2. The Software Maker

3. The Hardware Maker

4. Everyone Else

"Don Phillipson" wrote:

> "Smith" <smith@no-spam.com> wrote in message

> news:%233K%23KUDBJHA.524@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>

> > To my recollection, the last 98 computer was sold in 2001. That

> > would make the last sold computer seven years old. You would

> > think that the number of such systems still around would be near

> > zero.

>

> The last Win98 PC I bought new was custom-built to my

> specifications in July 2004. Reasons for this included hardware

> and software; e.g. my WP is Borland Sprint, an MS-DOS

> implementation of Emacs, that requires a DOS-capable

> printer. (Some manufacturers e.g. Brother still offer DOS-capable

> printers.)

>

> The PC hardware and software markets were focussed a

> decade ago on security (firewalls, antivirus screens etc.)

> and secondarily multiple functions in office applications.

> (E.g. office word processors now are configured

> for fancy printing, watermarks etc., and to borrow tabular

> data from related software; this makes the software

> bulky and slow although, when writing a legal brief or a

> student essay, we do not need fancy printing etc.)

>

> The market has changed in two respects. It now

> emphasizes security less (because security apps are

> now built into the Operating System and processing

> power maintains operating speed) and instead

> offers multimedia entertainment (TV and music via

> Internet.) Entertainment software has improved

> enormously in the last decade (and is supported

> by hardware improvements) but changes in office

> software are largely cosmetic.

>

> Planned obsolence appears to characterize the

> market in the 21st century in ways not done in the

> 20th, probably because of collapsing prices. My

> first three PCs, 1983 to about 1993, each cost new

> close too $2500. (This generated a useful rule when

> planning to upgrade: first design a dream machine,

> then watch component prices so as to buy when the

> total cost fell to $2500.) But my fourth and fifth cost

> less than $1000 each. Most recently I bought (used)

> one year ago a complete WinXP PC (1.5 GHz, 512 Mb

> RAM, 40 Gb HDD) for $125 including an excellent

> 22" monitor, now networked wireless with my 2.8 GHz

> WinXP PC (new 2004.)

>

> Appropriate hardware and software meets all my current

> functional needs. Functionalism is prima facie not the

> way the market works, but we can leave to philosophers

> market directions (pop music and role-playing games)

> and market prices (willingly paid by office IT purchasers,

> i.e. spending other peoples' money.) Yes, I sometimes

> buy toys too, if they seem to be functional as well, so

> have an eye on the irresistibly cute Eee, perhaps for

> Christmas . . .

>

> --

> Don Phillipson

> Carlsbad Springs

> (Ottawa, Canada)

>

August 22, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

"thanatoid" <waiting@the.exit.invalid> wrote in message

news:Xns9B027D8C77636thanexit@66.250.146.158...

> "gibson" <guitar@fretwork.com> wrote in

> news:e#yqG5DBJHA.2032@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl:

>

> >

> >> There is nothing special about this program for 98. Other

> >> similar programs, zoom player and vlc player, too run on

> >> 98.

> >>

> >

> > that may be so smithy,, but i d/loaded vlc player using

> > 98se and Still cant get it to work! something about an

> > 'error' and 'file missing' blah blah... if you got any tips

> > on how to make it work, i'm all fingers and toes... (ears)

> >

> > 5strings (one short)

>

> I don't get the 5 strings thing. If you broke a guitar string,

> you replace it!

>

I'm going to see John Pizzarelli in a few weeks

he plays a 7 string guitar~

Not too many of those

maybe he can spare one :)

> Anyway...

>

> There is a file called unicows.dll. I believe it is an exe

> (IIRC, contains a second file, unicows.pdb), and the installer

> puts them somewhere. If it doesn't put them in the VLC

> directory, move them there.

>

> It has to be downloaded separately, it does not (to my

> recollection) come with the VLC package, but it is avail. on the

> same site (and presumably many driver sites).

>

> I installed VLC a couple of years ago, but I imagine this is the

> same problem - which I was able to resolve by reading the info

> ;-)

>

> Let me know if this helped.

>

> --

> [from a recent conversation]

> thanatoid: So why did you decide you needed broadband?

> Neighbor: I wanted to read my e-mail faster.

August 22, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

Show me where those statistics are publicly displayed, please.

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

"Smith" <smith@no-spam.com> wrote in message

news:%233K%23KUDBJHA.524@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

> This presents a legitimate question for software developers

> updating their programs.

>

> To my recollection, the last 98 computer was sold in 2001. That

> would make the last sold computer seven years old. You would

> think that the number of such systems still around would be near

> zero.

>

> Yet, anecdotally, lots of 98 users seem to be around. They speak

> up on newsgroups and forums. They still seem to like their

> systems and boast of not changing their operating systems. Still

> having a ten year old operating system does reflect some

> sophistication of computer skills.

>

> I have long wondered if there is any reliable quantitative

> measure of continuing 98 users. Various measures surface from

> time to time most all of which seem to raise doubts of the

> accuracy of the numbers and the interests of who is publishing

> them. The question of what portion of the universe the numbers

> reflect always seems problematic.

>

> I recently came across a measure, that while hardly perfect,

> appears to be objective, not subject to anyone's special

> influence, and relevant to the issue.

>

> I found on the Guliverkli2 site counts of downloads of win98

> files and winxp versions at

> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=205650&pac

> kage_id=246121&release_id=541232 and

> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=205650&pac

> kage_id=245753&release_id=540363

>

> While the absolute numbers might be problematic, the proportion

> of win 98 to win xp users would seem to be significant as an

> approximate measure of a continuing 98 user base for purposes of

> software developers of similar programs.

>

> The first program was Media Player Classic 6.4.9.1. This is an

> excellent program that puts its developers in the software hall

> of fame. It plays lots of files well. The download counts are

>

> 98 15,417 (12%)

> xp 100,239 (88%)

>

> There is nothing special about this program for 98. Other

> similar programs, zoom player and vlc player, too run on 98.

>

> The other page was for directvobsub. The numbers were

>

> 98 2,053 (24%)

> xp 6,568 (76%)

>

> The fact that 12% of the persons downloading the win 98 version

> of the program, a OS version not sold commercially in seven

> years, would indicate a still significant base of sophisticated

> users keeping their software current consistent with the number

> of 98 users raising their voice on news groups and forums.

>

> This would contradict the claim heard from the Pacific Northwest

> that no one uses 98 any more.

August 22, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

"philo" <philo@privacy.net> wrote in

news:MJ-dnaRw1L7VjTLVnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@ntd.net:

>

> "thanatoid" <waiting@the.exit.invalid> wrote in message

> news:Xns9B027D8C77636thanexit@66.250.146.158...

>> "gibson" <guitar@fretwork.com> wrote in

>> news:e#yqG5DBJHA.2032@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl:

>>

>> >

>> >> There is nothing special about this program for 98.

>> >> Other similar programs, zoom player and vlc player, too

>> >> run on 98.

>> >>

>> >

>> > that may be so smithy,, but i d/loaded vlc player

>> > using 98se and Still cant get it to work! something

>> > about an 'error' and 'file missing' blah blah... if you

>> > got any tips on how to make it work, i'm all fingers and

>> > toes... (ears)

>> >

>> > 5strings (one short)

>>

>> I don't get the 5 strings thing. If you broke a guitar

>> string, you replace it!

>>

>

> I'm going to see John Pizzarelli in a few weeks

>

> he plays a 7 string guitar~

>

> Not too many of those

>

> maybe he can spare one :)

Hey Philo,

you probably will not believe this, but I /was/ actually going

to say that "of course, there ARE some guitars that have 7

strings..."

Honest!

t.

--

[from a recent conversation]

thanatoid: So why did you decide you needed broadband?

Neighbor: I wanted to read my e-mail faster.

August 22, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

Microsoft has two other post-Win98, pre-XP operating systems you neglected

to mention, yet your tallies add up to 100%

Is this a creative writing exercise?

Smith wrote:

> This presents a legitimate question for software developers

> updating their programs.

>

> To my recollection, the last 98 computer was sold in 2001. That

> would make the last sold computer seven years old. You would

> think that the number of such systems still around would be near

> zero.

>

> Yet, anecdotally, lots of 98 users seem to be around. They speak

> up on newsgroups and forums. They still seem to like their

> systems and boast of not changing their operating systems. Still

> having a ten year old operating system does reflect some

> sophistication of computer skills.

>

> I have long wondered if there is any reliable quantitative

> measure of continuing 98 users. Various measures surface from

> time to time most all of which seem to raise doubts of the

> accuracy of the numbers and the interests of who is publishing

> them. The question of what portion of the universe the numbers

> reflect always seems problematic.

>

> I recently came across a measure, that while hardly perfect,

> appears to be objective, not subject to anyone's special

> influence, and relevant to the issue.

>

> I found on the Guliverkli2 site counts of downloads of win98

> files and winxp versions at

> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=205650&pac

> kage_id=246121&release_id=541232 and

> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=205650&pac

> kage_id=245753&release_id=540363

>

> While the absolute numbers might be problematic, the proportion

> of win 98 to win xp users would seem to be significant as an

> approximate measure of a continuing 98 user base for purposes of

> software developers of similar programs.

>

> The first program was Media Player Classic 6.4.9.1. This is an

> excellent program that puts its developers in the software hall

> of fame. It plays lots of files well. The download counts are

>

> 98 15,417 (12%)

> xp 100,239 (88%)

>

> There is nothing special about this program for 98. Other

> similar programs, zoom player and vlc player, too run on 98.

>

> The other page was for directvobsub. The numbers were

>

> 98 2,053 (24%)

> xp 6,568 (76%)

>

> The fact that 12% of the persons downloading the win 98 version

> of the program, a OS version not sold commercially in seven

> years, would indicate a still significant base of sophisticated

> users keeping their software current consistent with the number

> of 98 users raising their voice on news groups and forums.

>

> This would contradict the claim heard from the Pacific Northwest

> that no one uses 98 any more.

August 23, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 19:37:08 +0930, "gibson" <guitar@fretwork.com>

wrote:

>

>> There is nothing special about this program for 98. Other

>> similar programs, zoom player and vlc player, too run on 98.

>>

>

>that may be so smithy,, but i d/loaded vlc player using 98se and Still cant get it to work!

>something about an 'error' and 'file missing' blah blah...

>if you got any tips on how to make it work, i'm all fingers and toes... (ears)

>

>5strings (one short)

Last vlc for win98 was 0.8.6.a

Later ones crash. There is a work-around, but it crashes every

time you update. (It did for me , anyway)

Good Luck

>

August 23, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

Smith wrote:

> This presents a legitimate question for software developers

> updating their programs.

http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

1 Windows XP 77.16%

2 Windows Vista 8.88%

3 Mac OS X 4.58%

4 Windows 2000 2.86%

5 Linux 1.91%

6 Windows 98 0.86%

7 Windows 2003 0.73%

8 Windows ME 0.32%

9 SymbianOS 0.05%

10 Windows NT 0.04%

Records seem to go back only to May 2007. Win-98 fell below 1% usage in

April 2008.

This page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operating_systems

lists several sources and puts current 98 usage at anywhere from 0.4% to

0.9% (as above).

This page:

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

is putting 98 share at 0.2%, which I doubt is that low. Historically

for the last few years, win-98 useage seems to be about 1/3 of win-2k

usage (which is currently about 2.8%).

A big deal was made (by some) when Linux usage had tied with Win-98 at

1.34%, which seemed to happen last September.

August 23, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

98 Guy <98@Guy.com> wrote in news:48AF8757.1F5A0830@Guy.com:

> Smith wrote:

>

>> This presents a legitimate question for software

>> developers updating their programs.

>

> http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

>

> 1 Windows XP 77.16%

> 2 Windows Vista 8.88%

> 3 Mac OS X 4.58%

> 4 Windows 2000 2.86%

> 5 Linux 1.91%

> 6 Windows 98 0.86%

> 7 Windows 2003 0.73%

> 8 Windows ME 0.32%

> 9 SymbianOS 0.05%

> 10 Windows NT 0.04%

>

> Records seem to go back only to May 2007. Win-98 fell

> below 1% usage in April 2008.

>

> This page:

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operatin

> g_systems

>

> lists several sources and puts current 98 usage at anywhere

> from 0.4% to 0.9% (as above).

>

> This page:

>

> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

>

> is putting 98 share at 0.2%, which I doubt is that low.

> Historically for the last few years, win-98 useage seems to

> be about 1/3 of win-2k usage (which is currently about

> 2.8%).

>

> A big deal was made (by some) when Linux usage had tied

> with Win-98 at 1.34%, which seemed to happen last

> September.

>

HEY! I am using 95B goddamit! Iknow there's only about 30 of us,

but don't we rate even a .003%?

--

[from a recent conversation]

thanatoid: So why did you decide you needed broadband?

Neighbor: I wanted to read my e-mail faster.

August 23, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

98 Guy <98@Guy.com> wrote in news:48AF8757.1F5A0830@Guy.com:

> TSmith wrote:

>

>> This presents a legitimate question for software

>> developers updating their programs.

>

> http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

>

> 1 Windows XP 77.16%

> 2 Windows Vista 8.88%

> 3 Mac OS X 4.58%

> 4 Windows 2000 2.86%

> 5 Linux 1.91%

> 6 Windows 98 0.86%

> 7 Windows 2003 0.73%

> 8 Windows ME 0.32%

> 9 SymbianOS 0.05%

> 10 Windows NT 0.04%

>

> Records seem to go back only to May 2007. Win-98 fell

> below 1% usage in April 2008.

>

> This page:

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operatin

> g_systems

>

> lists several sources and puts current 98 usage at anywhere

> from 0.4% to 0.9% (as above).

>

> This page:

>

> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

>

> is putting 98 share at 0.2%, which I doubt is that low.

> Historically for the last few years, win-98 useage seems to

> be about 1/3 of win-2k usage (which is currently about

> 2.8%).

>

> A big deal was made (by some) when Linux usage had tied

> with Win-98 at 1.34%, which seemed to happen last

> September.

The data look contradictory to me.

All of the general win 98 numbers raise questions of where their

numbers came from and what universe are they including in the

numbers, exactly how did they are determining the operating

system, and did they validate their procedures for so

determining.

They also raise the question of for what purpose were they making

their measurement.

Some independent software developers, such as those of Media

Player Classic and other such programs. are asking if they should

continue to include win 98 support in their programs. For that

determination the relevant universe is people who use or might

use their software, which is a small subset of all users one

might find in internet logs.

August 23, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

Full-Quoter Smith wrote:

> > Windows 98 0.86%

> > ... current 98 usage at anywhere from 0.4% to 0.9% (as above).

> > ... is putting 98 share at 0.2%, which I doubt is that low.

>

> The data look contradictory to me.

I don't think it looks contradictory at all.

A range of .2% to .9% is not contradictory.

It just reflects that measurement variability will increase as the

population goes down.

> All of the general win 98 numbers raise questions of where

> their numbers came from and ...

These numbers come from various web-metrics companies who have their

counters linked in from a few thousand web pages. The numbers will be

highly dependent on the nature of those web pages and the viewership

they attract.

> what universe are they including in the numbers,

They are including the metrics of the web-pages that reference their

counter mechanisms.

> exactly how did they are determining the operating system,

It's part of the browser referer line that's sent to the web server as

part of retrieving the desired web page.

> and did they validate their procedures for so determining.

Since they usually charge a website owner for their metrics measurement

services, I would presume that they can show the client an example of

their validation proceedure. Also note that this is not rocket science

and these metrics are very easy to obtain.

> They also raise the question of for what purpose were they

> making their measurement.

As I said above, these companies offer web-traffic measurement services

to website and domain owners so that the owners can gauge the popularity

of their site, to know where (geographically, based in IP address) their

viewers come from, and to know more mundane details like what browser

and OS the viewers are using. This information can be used to determine

advertizing rates on the websites in question.

Since it's usually not that important for a website or domain owner to

know the browser and OS of their viewers, those metrics have little

value hence they tend to be made availble for free by the companies

performing the measurements.

Presumably the best source of data would be from domains such as

google.com, yahoo.com, msn.com, etc. Seeing the referrer stats from

those domains would be very accurate as far as knowing the true numbers

of the various OS's and browsers currently in use. Unquestionably the

owners of those domains know full well the distribution of OS's

currently in use.

> Some independent software developers, such as those of Media

> Player Classic and other such programs. are asking if they

> should continue to include win 98 support in their programs.

I think the fault with win-98 compatibility lies with the installation

software. InstallShield doesn't necessarily make it easy to maintain

backward compatibility with older OS's, or developers don't configure

installshield properly for their software to install on older platforms.

I didn't think that Media Player Classic was still available (or being

developed) due to pressure from the DVD consortium.

August 23, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

Man, you do have the talent, <g>.

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

"Smith" <smith@smith.com> wrote in message

news:%23KyT%23$QBJHA.4316@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> 98 Guy <98@Guy.com> wrote in news:48AF8757.1F5A0830@Guy.com:

>

>> TSmith wrote:

>>

>>> This presents a legitimate question for software

>>> developers updating their programs.

>>

>> http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

>>

>> 1 Windows XP 77.16%

>> 2 Windows Vista 8.88%

>> 3 Mac OS X 4.58%

>> 4 Windows 2000 2.86%

>> 5 Linux 1.91%

>> 6 Windows 98 0.86%

>> 7 Windows 2003 0.73%

>> 8 Windows ME 0.32%

>> 9 SymbianOS 0.05%

>> 10 Windows NT 0.04%

>>

>> Records seem to go back only to May 2007. Win-98 fell

>> below 1% usage in April 2008.

>>

>> This page:

>>

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operatin

>> g_systems

>>

>> lists several sources and puts current 98 usage at anywhere

>> from 0.4% to 0.9% (as above).

>>

>> This page:

>>

>> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

>>

>> is putting 98 share at 0.2%, which I doubt is that low.

>> Historically for the last few years, win-98 useage seems to

>> be about 1/3 of win-2k usage (which is currently about

>> 2.8%).

>>

>> A big deal was made (by some) when Linux usage had tied

>> with Win-98 at 1.34%, which seemed to happen last

>> September.

>

> The data look contradictory to me.

>

> All of the general win 98 numbers raise questions of where their

> numbers came from and what universe are they including in the

> numbers, exactly how did they are determining the operating

> system, and did they validate their procedures for so

> determining.

>

> They also raise the question of for what purpose were they making

> their measurement.

>

> Some independent software developers, such as those of Media

> Player Classic and other such programs. are asking if they should

> continue to include win 98 support in their programs. For that

> determination the relevant universe is people who use or might

> use their software, which is a small subset of all users one

> might find in internet logs.

August 24, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 23:43:19 -0400, 98 Guy <98@Guy.com> wrote:

>Smith wrote:

>

>> This presents a legitimate question for software developers

>> updating their programs.

>

>http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

>

>1 Windows XP 77.16%

>2 Windows Vista 8.88%

>3 Mac OS X 4.58%

>4 Windows 2000 2.86%

>5 Linux 1.91%

>6 Windows 98 0.86%

>7 Windows 2003 0.73%

>8 Windows ME 0.32%

>9 SymbianOS 0.05%

>10 Windows NT 0.04%

There are THAT MANY people using ME? Crikey, I'd never have believed that.

August 24, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

rebel <me@privacy.net> wrote in

news:phb1b4palgdvdhcrgnkt3nbg8k8t4jhph6@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 23:43:19 -0400, 98 Guy <98@Guy.com>

> wrote:

>

>>Smith wrote:

>>

>>> This presents a legitimate question for software

>>> developers updating their programs.

>>

>>http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

>>

>>1 Windows XP 77.16%

>>2 Windows Vista 8.88%

>>3 Mac OS X 4.58%

>>4 Windows 2000 2.86%

>>5 Linux 1.91%

>>6 Windows 98 0.86%

>>7 Windows 2003 0.73%

>>8 Windows ME 0.32%

>>9 SymbianOS 0.05%

>>10 Windows NT 0.04%

>

> There are THAT MANY people using ME? Crikey, I'd never

> have believed that.

>

I have difficulty with the ratio of 2.6 98 users to one ME

user. I don't recall hearing anyone say they will never switch

from ME, as I have from 98. The people I knew who used ME all

switched back to 98 before XP.

Who uses windows server 2003 to browse the internet? The survey

shows nearly as many 2003 users as 98 users. Maybe these are

crawlers.

The low end numbers look suspect.

August 29, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

Yes, I sometimes

> buy toys too, if they seem to be functional as well, so

> have an eye on the irresistibly cute Eee, perhaps for

> Christmas . . .

Define: "Christ-mas" plz?

you seem smart re: worldly things, now show your smarts re: Christmas.

> --

> Don Phillipson

August 29, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

Why don't you bugger off with your OT crap?

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

"gibson" <guitar@fretwork.com> wrote in message

news:eCV6r6cCJHA.1816@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

>

> Yes, I sometimes

>> buy toys too, if they seem to be functional as well, so

>> have an eye on the irresistibly cute Eee, perhaps for

>> Christmas . . .

>

> Define: "Christ-mas" plz?

> you seem smart re: worldly things, now show your smarts re: Christmas.

>

>> --

>> Don Phillipson

>

September 1, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 23:43:19 -0400, 98 Guy <98@Guy.com> put finger to

keyboard and composed:

>Smith wrote:

>

>> This presents a legitimate question for software developers

>> updating their programs.

>

>http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

>

>1 Windows XP 77.16%

>2 Windows Vista 8.88%

>3 Mac OS X 4.58%

>4 Windows 2000 2.86%

>5 Linux 1.91%

>6 Windows 98 0.86%

>7 Windows 2003 0.73%

>8 Windows ME 0.32%

>9 SymbianOS 0.05%

>10 Windows NT 0.04%

>

>Records seem to go back only to May 2007. Win-98 fell below 1% usage in

>April 2008.

>

>This page:

>

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operating_systems

>

>lists several sources and puts current 98 usage at anywhere from 0.4% to

>0.9% (as above).

>

>This page:

>

>http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

>

>is putting 98 share at 0.2%, which I doubt is that low. Historically

>for the last few years, win-98 useage seems to be about 1/3 of win-2k

>usage (which is currently about 2.8%).

>

>A big deal was made (by some) when Linux usage had tied with Win-98 at

>1.34%, which seemed to happen last September.

If everyone is ditching Win98, then what in hell are they doing with

their CDs? Win98SE CDs are selling for between $50 and $100 on Ebay,

so somebody must still want them pretty bad.

- Franc Zabkar

--

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

September 1, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

Three-year-old info, but what the heck:

http://www.usagewatch.org/2005/08/how_many_pcs_ar.html

"According to the Computer Industry Almanac (March 2005), at the end of 2004

there were 822,15M PCs in use worldwide."

By my calculations, that would amount to over a billion, now. Times 0.2% (if

these were all online computers that got counted by W3schools), still leaves

2 million in circulation.

I'll wager 90% of current purchases of Windows 98 discs anywhere are to

replace lost discs or restore partitions, or to otherwise rebuild what was

originally a 95 or 98 machine. The other ten percent are to install on a new

machine so legacy apps (especially games) can be run.

And just because a few people are selling off old stock, or even used or

pirate copies on EBay (mostly the same sellers), EBay, today, only returned

43 hits for "Windows 98 SE", 21 hits for "Windows 98 Second Edition", and

410 hits for just "Windows 98" which are mostly stuff *for* Windows 98, not

Windows 98 itself. We'll call it 60 copies of SE total being offered, and

after scrolling through the 410 hits for "Windows 98", I only spotted maybe

half a dozen that are Win98 Original. A quick count shows maybe 1 bidder per

each 60 or 70 items offered.

If you want to interpret those numbers as "raging popularity", be my guest.

Note that these numbers are for the entire world, which includes a LOT of

people who consider Windows 98 on old hardware a luxury and anything newer

totally out of reach. 2 million users (or let's say 4 million, with half of

them never going online, vs. a billion? Pitiful.

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://grystmill.com

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

news:t59nb4l0bj37ip5pttgbir6anbl6e2gpfj@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 23:43:19 -0400, 98 Guy <98@Guy.com> put finger to

> keyboard and composed:

>

>>Smith wrote:

>>

>>> This presents a legitimate question for software developers

>>> updating their programs.

>>

>>http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

>>

>>1 Windows XP 77.16%

>>2 Windows Vista 8.88%

>>3 Mac OS X 4.58%

>>4 Windows 2000 2.86%

>>5 Linux 1.91%

>>6 Windows 98 0.86%

>>7 Windows 2003 0.73%

>>8 Windows ME 0.32%

>>9 SymbianOS 0.05%

>>10 Windows NT 0.04%

>>

>>Records seem to go back only to May 2007. Win-98 fell below 1% usage in

>>April 2008.

>>

>>This page:

>>

>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operating_systems

>>

>>lists several sources and puts current 98 usage at anywhere from 0.4% to

>>0.9% (as above).

>>

>>This page:

>>

>>http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

>>

>>is putting 98 share at 0.2%, which I doubt is that low. Historically

>>for the last few years, win-98 useage seems to be about 1/3 of win-2k

>>usage (which is currently about 2.8%).

>>

>>A big deal was made (by some) when Linux usage had tied with Win-98 at

>>1.34%, which seemed to happen last September.

>

> If everyone is ditching Win98, then what in hell are they doing with

> their CDs? Win98SE CDs are selling for between $50 and $100 on Ebay,

> so somebody must still want them pretty bad.

>

> - Franc Zabkar

> --

> Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

September 2, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

"Gary S. Terhune" wrote:

> We'll call it 60 copies of SE total being offered,

There are, right now, 91 seeders and 13 down-loaders for the win-98 CD

torrent that I wrote about in the other thread. And that's just one out

of many win-98 torrents going at any given time.

There are 16 win-98 cd's being offered at ebay.co.uk using /"windows 98"

second edition/ as the search phrase. There are 20 being offered at

ebay.com using the same search phrase, 7 on ebay.ca, only 1 on e-bay

australia, 0 new zealand, 12 at e-bay germany, 4 e-bay NL, about a dozen

on E-bay France...

> If you want to interpret those numbers as "raging popularity",

> be my guest.

I don't think anyone was claiming that.

> By my calculations, that would amount to over a billion, now.

It's likely that many win-98 computers are not connected to the

internet.

At 1% usage (internet + non-internet-connected) that would be 10 million

pc's still running win-98.

> 2 million users (or let's say 4 million, with half of

> them never going online, vs. a billion? Pitiful.

Pitiful?

And you were expecting - what?

Given the Microsoft is an illegal monopoly that has violated countless

laws and paid millions in fines all over the world, it's Microsoft's

business practices that are pitiful.

Given that they had to stop selling it 4 years ago in order to make the

numbers fall - you call that pitiful?

Given that Microsoft controls or dictates that the majority of new PC's

must come with an OS installed, and 99% of the time it's their's, and

it's the one that THEY want to put on it, maybe you call that pitiful?

Given that it was only recently that *nix/Linux usage has risen to equal

win-98, maybe you call that pitiful?

September 2, 2008

Re: Quantative Measure of People Still Using 98?

On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 16:28:14 -0700, "Gary S. Terhune" <none> put finger

to keyboard and composed:

>Three-year-old info, but what the heck:

>http://www.usagewatch.org/2005/08/how_many_pcs_ar.html

>

>"According to the Computer Industry Almanac (March 2005), at the end of 2004

>there were 822,15M PCs in use worldwide."

>

>By my calculations, that would amount to over a billion, now. Times 0.2% (if

>these were all online computers that got counted by W3schools), still leaves

>2 million in circulation.

My question would be, assuming that, say, 10% of current XP and Vista

users upgraded from Win98SE, then where are *their* old CDs? If *I* no

longer needed my Win98SE CD, I would be offering it on eBay at the

current inflated prices.

- Franc Zabkar

--

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

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