Guest Mars Posted July 14, 2007 Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Backup with out a Floppy Drive in XP My head is going to pop. I know how to backup. I have many many hard drives to backup to and to redundantly mirror, including offsite. Here is a screen capture that clearly shows that a floppy disk is needed when doing a complete system backup/restore: http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.ecdd93fabd.png "Daave" wrote: > Mars wrote: > > > So obviously you have never used the Windows XP "Backup" application, > > to create a complete system restore backup. Once the app has > > finished 'backing up' the entire system, it asks to insert a floppy > > disk to record "important restore information". > > I've used Ntbackup to back up data, and floppies aren't necessary. True, > that particular app is very limited in that you cannot back up to CD or > DVD. However, you may certainly backup data to an external hard drive, > and I really don't see why a System Restore backup would be any > different. > > For more information, see: > > "Windows XP Backup Made Easy" > http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/setup/learnmore/bott_03july14.mspx > > <quote> > > Decide Where to Store Your Backup Files > > On the Backup Type, Destination, and Name page, Windows asks you to > specify a backup location. If you're one of those exceedingly rare > individuals with access to a backup tape, the Backup utility gives you a > choice of options in the Select a backup type box. No tape drive? No > problem. Backup assumes you're going to save everything in a single > file; you just have to choose a location for that file and give it a > name. > > By default, Backup proposes saving everything to your floppy drive > (drive A). Although that might have made sense 10 years ago, it's hardly > a rational choice today. You'd need dozens, perhaps hundreds of floppy > disks to store even a modest collection of data files, especially if you > collect digital music or photos. > > Instead, your best bet is to click Browse and choose any of the > following locations: > > .. Your computer's hard disk. The ideal backup location is a separate > partition from the one you're backing up. If your hard disk is > partitioned into drive C and drive D and your data is on drive C, you > can safely back up to drive D. > > .. A Zip drive or other removable media. At 100-250MB per disk, this is > an option if you don't have multiple gigabytes to back up. > Unfortunately, the Windows Backup utility can't save files directly to a > CD-RW drive. > > .. A shared network drive. You're limited only by the amount of free > space on the network share. > > .. An external hard disk drive. USB and IEEE 1394 or FireWire drives have > dropped in price lately. Consider getting a 40 GB or larger drive and > dedicating it for use as a backup device. > > </quote> > > External hard drives are quite affordable. You should consider > purchasing one. Again, I see no reason you can't back up the system > state to an external hard drive using Ntbackup. > > Or you may have noticed quite a few of us have mentioned Acronis. ;-) > One advantage of Acronis is that you *can* backup to CD or DVD. You may > backup data, you may create an image of your *entire* hard drive (much > easier than what you have been trying to do with ntbackup), and you may > even *clone* your hard drive! > > >
Guest Mars Posted July 14, 2007 Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Backup with out a Floppy Drive in XP Try the link again: http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?ecdd93fabd.png
Guest Daave Posted July 14, 2007 Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Backup with out a Floppy Drive in XP Mars wrote: > I really suggest you try using "Backup" ( What is this NTBackup you > are speaking of? I can not find it on Windows XP Pro SP2) to create a > complete system restore backup. Ntbackup is the name of the backup application which comes with Windows XP. > You will find that at the end of the > backup session, IT WILL ask for a floppy to record some sort of > 'restore' data. I have not found a way to circumvent this in the > "Backup" program that is provided in Windows XP Pro SP2. I'll have to try that later on. I use XP at work, but I won't be back there till Monday. Maybe tonight I'll have a look at my buddy's PC (mine still has 98 SE!). It's beyond me why it would require you to back up the restore data to a floppy rather than the other hard drive you're *already* backing up everything else on to! Well, just another reason many people avoid Ntbackup... > as it stands, it does not seem as though anyone knows how to create a > Floppy Image in Windows. Are you sure it's an image and not just a few files?
Guest Mars Posted July 14, 2007 Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Backup with out a Floppy Drive in XP > Are you sure it's an image and not just a few files? Not sure what you mean. Okay, I finally found the "ntbackup" application you are referring to. I was merely doing my searches in the "Programs" folder for it. It seems that it resides in "Windows\system32" and I had to search for hidden files also... he he, strange. So I wonder why this app is hidden in that directory, while another application called "Backup" is in the "Programs" folder? Oh, okay, now I think I understand... sort of. The application "Backup" found in the "Programs" folder must be a symbolic link to "ntbackup". Running ntbackup results in the same application that "Backup" is... Both are. For whatever reason, oh lord, I'm not too familiar with windows file system, I just try to leave all the system stuff alone take what the Start Menu says are my applications as good enough for now. So, we are talking about the same application. Good. So When I go through the automatic Wizard for creating a complete system restore backup, It leads me down the path too the image I posted earlier. If I select the advanced tab, I get this window: http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=backupadvancedwelcomeic4.png Now, are you suggesting that the "Automated System Recovery Wizard" is unnecessary to create a Complete backup of my entire system just incase something horrible happens to the Operating system? I know, I suppose this is all a moot point since it sounds like Backup/ntbackup is not a reliable solution. Although, understanding what a floppy disk has to do with saving system settings is very curious unto itself. You see, my idea was to create a Complete Backup of my entire system at this very early stage, just after a fresh install of Windows XP Pro SP2 and all my GIS applications. I would keep this "Backup" sitting on an external Hard drive in house, and also off site. (I'm terribly paranoid about data loss) I do a lot of client work where ArcGIS is used. I install OpenSource GIS softwares on Client machines to provide an extensive array of GIS tools that are not provided with various ArcGIS licenses. So, I have come across some pretty crazy Systems where I have observed horrendous Backup regimes. Unfortunately I have very little expertise in Windows. I would like to provide the simplest of ways to make sure my clients are producing a proper Backup/Restore regime. Acronis sounds like the best way to do this however, I don't see myself packing a site license in my back pocket every where I go. There fore the reason why I am investigating alternatives. I am starting to lean towards a stripped down linux distro on a keychain to automate the task of creating mirrored clones. Since it appears Backup/ntbackup is inadequate. Still I would like to understand the reasoning behind the use of a floppy. Just incase for whatever reason It is imperative that a "floppy image" needs to be backed up for some reason. I also hope that this will not be a necessary evil when/if the Vista transition becomes a viable option. that's my story and I'm sticking to it ;)
Guest Daave Posted July 14, 2007 Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Backup with out a Floppy Drive in XP Mars wrote: >> IIRC, you don't need a floppy to backup your data, only the system >> state if you are using ASR. > > What is IIRC and ASR? And are you saying that you do need to use a > floppy for the system state? IIRC: If I recall correctly (these sorts of abbreviations are frequently used on Usenet) ASR: Automated System Recovery
Guest Daave Posted July 14, 2007 Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Backup with out a Floppy Drive in XP Mars wrote: > The application "Backup" found in the "Programs" folder must be > a symbolic link to "ntbackup". In Windows, it's called a shortcut." :-) > So When I go through the automatic Wizard for creating a complete > system restore backup, It leads me down the path too the image I > posted earlier. > > If I select the advanced tab, I get this window: > http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=backupadvancedwelcomeic4.png > > Now, are you suggesting that the "Automated System Recovery Wizard" is > unnecessary to create a Complete backup of my entire system just > incase something horrible happens to the Operating system? You don't need to use the wizard. When you start Ntbackup, you may choose to use the advanced mode instead. But apparently if you choose to use the wizard, you *must* use a floppy to save the system settings even though you're backing everything else up to an external hard drive. This is ridiculous IMHO and yet another reason most avoid using Ntbackup. (Whether or not you need a floppy when you don't use the wizard is something I cannot answer now.) > Although, understanding what a floppy disk has to do with saving > system settings is very curious unto itself. I couldn't agree more. > I would like to provide the simplest of ways to make sure my clients > are producing a proper Backup/Restore regime. > > Acronis sounds like the best way to do this however, I don't see > myself packing a site license in my back pocket every where I go. > There fore the reason why I am investigating alternatives. Acronis seems to be the most popular. Free alternatives can be found at: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2007/PL2007SYSTEMUTILITIES.php#5.00BackupFiles However, programs like DriveImage XML and XXCopy are not to be used commercially for free. > I am starting to lean towards a stripped down linux distro on a > keychain to automate the task of creating mirrored clones. Since it > appears Backup/ntbackup is inadequate. Sounds like a plan. > Still I would like to understand the reasoning behind the use of a > floppy. If you find out, let me know. ;-) > I also hope that this will not be a necessary evil when/if the Vista > transition becomes a viable option. When XP was introduced, floppy drives were very commonplace. My guess is that Vista's native backup application doesn't require floppies.
Guest John John Posted July 14, 2007 Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Backup with out a Floppy Drive in XP You are trying to do an ASR backup. Regardless of what some may say ASR has its uses and it is a reliable method of backing up the System State and, Automated System Recovery is a reliable way of restoring the Windows operating system and system state data to bare metal. Is it the best? Of course not, but it isn't as bad as some paint it to be. It's simple and easy to use and it does work. People are having hissy fits because ASR needs information stored on a floppy diskette to properly restore disk configurations and disk signatures. So what? Maybe the crowd that is so hell bent on the notion that disk imaging is the only solution could tell us how to easily and painlessly restore dynamic volumes. As I said, ASR isn't the best, it has limitations and it isn't designed to backup user data but it is effective for what it was designed to do. Disk imaging might be more comprehensive in certain respects but it too has its annoyances. The best backups are backups that are made regularly, if ASR helps users accomplish this, or if it presents an additional disaster recovery option it should not be dismissed outright because of floppy-phobia! John Mars wrote: > for the life of Me I can not understand why people somehow think I am trying > to back up to floppies. > > Maybe I am speaking a different language. > > "FrankChin" wrote: > > >>Mars: >> >> >>>Why? >>> >>>Because after backing up "All information on my Computer" using "Backup" it >>>asks me to insert a floppy disk so that restore information can be saved. >> >>I've been doing backups since the mid 80's, and I recall doing a backup of a >>"20 meg" drive to floppies took 30 minutes. Floppies are slow to begin with. >>These days, I have 20Gigs or more to backup on each PC, 1000 times the >>volume, so it'll take 500 hours to sit there and back it up onto thousands of >>floppies. >> >>How much would 20,000 floppies cost, and think of the room you'll need to >>store it, and what happens if some of them fell on the floor. LOL. >> >>There are these additional problems with the NTBACKUP >> >>- I've tried using it to backup to an external HD just for the fun of it, >>but failed as maxes out at a certain point, and there's been prior >>discussions as to why on this board. >>- As someone who's done backup and actual needed and done "restore" of many >>years, often, you need to restore ONE or sevral files, as files may corrupt, >>or you may mess up that spreadsheet from yesterday. Norton Ghost allows me to >>restore just that one file whereas NT backup does not. >>- Often, when HD fails, it's gotten old and bloated, and it'll be better if >>you restore the software and data searately. If you restore the system the >>way it was, it'll be the same virus ridden bloated system that you got. >> >>Let's put it in simple terms (for a neophyte). >> >>While it's free, NTBACKUP is useless. Backing up to thousands of floppies is >>ludicrous in this day and age HD's with a minimum of 20 Gigs of data. >> >>Spend less than $200 and get yourself an external USB drive and a useful >>backup package like Norton Ghost or Acronis. >> >>And here's an old "war story" >> >>Years back, I worked somehere (a cheap company) we actually used the old >>DOS "backup" and "restore" utilities to backup data onto floppies. As I >>mentioned, 20 megs took over 30 minutes. >> >>One time, we had a brilliant idea. Let's try restoring data to a new PC we >>got to see if restore works or not. In the days of 5-1/4" low desnsity >>floppies, 20 megs backs up to over 50 to 100 floppies. >> >>And we couldn't restore. Why?? >> >>One of the floppies was bad, corrputed. We were stuck on floppy "#15" as I >>recall, and we couldn't get onto #16, so the rest of the set was useless, >>though. somwone taught us a trick much later on to get through this, losing >>some data in the process. >> >>And we couldn't restore just one file either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>"Mars" wrote: >> >> >>>To everyone who wrote.... >>> >>>Wow, this is my first time asking a question in a Microsoft Windows Forum. >>>Not exactly the same experience as when asking in other forums. >>> >>>Okay, should I start off by saying, " I love Microsoft, I think they are the >>>greatest company in the world and make the best darn software I ever did >>>use,.... please help." ? >>> >>>hehehehe, >>> >>>So, essentially I'm not a hard core windows geek, and my only experience >>>with command line tasks have been with Bash. I do remember using DOS back in >>>the good ole days when purchasing an old X86 with a monochrome monitor was >>>somehow a step up from my Commodore 64. >>> >>>So, why am I saying this? >>> >>>Because I do not know what all these acronyms are in Windows. Think of me as >>>a neophyte and someone who would like to embrace Windows, and does not have >>>much patience for silly remarks, unless of course they come from my nephew. >>> >>>So back to my original Question I was asking: >>> >>>I have used the BackUp application which comes with Windows XP Pro. It's >>>free and makes sense to use whatever utilities come with the operating system. >>> >>>I do not wish to purchase a floppy disk driver, I don't care if it costs >>>less than bowl of cherries, I'd rather buy the cherries thank you. >>> >>>Every operating system I have used has a nice quick utility for creating " >>>disk images " I am looking how to create a "floppy disk image" for windows >>>xp. >>> >>>Why? >>> >>>Because after backing up "All information on my Computer" using "Backup" it >>>asks me to insert a floppy disk so that restore information can be saved. >>> >>>I am backing up everything because I am hoping that if Windows XPpro gibbles >>>on me again, ( This largely do to some sort of issue with ArcGIS Info and a >>>developer tool set I installed improperly.. I assume) I can simply restore my >>>system to my latest Backup and not go through the full 12hr + reinstallation >>>of Windows XP, it's many updates, then ArcGIS, it's many updates, then all >>>the dependancies updates. >>> >>>So now that you know I am not an operating system wizard, not an acronym >>>juggler, not interested in purchasing a floppy drive, that I do wish to >>>embrace XP and what it can offer, and am interested in finding a nice simple >>>solution, any takers? >>> >>>oh Yes, I back up to a hard drive. That hard drive gets mirrored to another >>>hard drive and all my hard drives get once again backed up to an offsite >>>location. So yes, my time and data are very important to me. >>> >>>Please forgive me for not being very clear in the first post, this operating >>>system is kinda new to me. >>> >>>Thank you. >>> >>>Mars
Guest Daave Posted July 14, 2007 Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Backup with out a Floppy Drive in XP John John wrote: > You are trying to do an ASR backup. Regardless of what some > may say ASR has its uses and it is a reliable method of backing up > the System State and, Automated System Recovery is a reliable way > of restoring the Windows operating system and system state data to > bare metal. Is it the best? Of course not, but it isn't as bad as some > paint it to be. It's simple and easy to use and it does work. People > are having hissy fits because ASR needs information stored on a floppy > diskette to properly restore disk configurations and disk signatures. I wouldn't say OP is having a hissy fit! He doesn't have a floppy drive, and he would rather not purchase an external one. What we are trying to figure out is the following: Why does this process require a floppy in the first place? (Keep in mind that this is a medium on the way out). It's not like a boot floppy is being made; the recovery process entails booting off the installation CD. Why can't the system state also be saved to the external hard drive along with everything else?
Guest John John Posted July 14, 2007 Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Backup with out a Floppy Drive in XP Daave wrote: > John John wrote: > >>You are trying to do an ASR backup. Regardless of what some >>may say ASR has its uses and it is a reliable method of backing up >>the System State and, Automated System Recovery is a reliable way >>of restoring the Windows operating system and system state data to >>bare metal. Is it the best? Of course not, but it isn't as bad as > > some > >>paint it to be. It's simple and easy to use and it does work. People >>are having hissy fits because ASR needs information stored on a floppy >>diskette to properly restore disk configurations and disk signatures. > > > I wouldn't say OP is having a hissy fit! He doesn't have a floppy drive, > and he would rather not purchase an external one. > > What we are trying to figure out is the following: > > Why does this process require a floppy in the first place? (Keep in mind > that this is a medium on the way out). It's not like a boot floppy is > being made; the recovery process entails booting off the installation > CD. Why can't the system state also be saved to the external hard drive > along with everything else? Hi Daave, I wasn't talking about the OP have a hissy fit, I was talking about the fact that this question is often asked on these groups and that because ASR needs a floppy to do its restore it is outright often immediately dismissed as a disaster recovery solution by some, often those naysayers are the ones having hissy fits because ASR needs a floppy to work. Your point that the floppy is a medium on the way out and that the files could be obtained from the backup stored on an external drive is one that is also often expressed by users and the fact that ASR cannot do that is often a source of frustration and dismay to some users. You have to understand however that Windows XP was released in 2001 and that at that time, while on its way out, the floppy was still being used for certain things. Microsoft does not rewrite the setup engine or redesign the setup architecture for the setup process after the final release of its operating systems. The fact that the floppy drive is not present on many computers is the result of computer manufacturers who prematurely rushed to eliminate the floppy drive in an attempt to save a couple of dollars on each computer sold. In my opinion, for most uses, no computer sold prior to vista should have shipped without a floppy drive and the manufacturers did a big disservice to their customers by prematurely adopting this practice. As usual they put their interests ahead of those of the customers. The reason that ASR needs a floppy diskette lies in the fact that ASR formats the boot volume before doing the restoration. In order to do the restoration ASR needs to install a rudimentary Windows installation on the drive so that it can then run the necessary software to do the actual restore. You may think, "Fine, that isn't a problem, once the rudimentary installation is installed why not fetch all the backup information from the backup media?" The reason, once again is because of the formating, after the disk is formated the disk configuration and disk signatures have to be restored before Windows is installed, ASR cannot restore the disk configuration and signatures after the rudimentary Windows copy is installed. So, much the same as when installing Windows on a new disk, with the exception of RIS and installations from network shares, the setup program cannot obtain necessary setup files on external disks, the files and configuration information have to be on the setup cd or the information *must* be supplied on a floppy diskette, the setup program will not accept the files from any other media source. That is much the same as and can be closely compared to unattended installations, or to the F6 driver installation method that is often required to install Windows on SATA drives or on RAID and Mass Storage Devices, the files can only be obtained from a floppy diskette, the same goes for the information needed to restore disk configurations and disk signatures, it can only be supplied on a floppy, the setup program will not accept it from any other media source. John
Guest Patrick Keenan Posted July 15, 2007 Posted July 15, 2007 Re: Backup with out a Floppy Drive in XP "Mars" <Mars@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:A773CDE6-661B-4EF6-BD28-C9F594575727@microsoft.com... > Yes, floppy drives are cheep, but I am not interested in more junk > floating > around in my workspace. Then you will need to examine other backup options that don't require floppies. ntbackup, the XP backup utility, does require a floppy for what you seem to want to do. You might also want to consider what's junk and what's required tools or hardware. If you have to look after a number of PCs, a USB floppy can be a valuable tool. >> IIRC, you don't need a floppy to backup your data, only the system state >> if >> you are using ASR. > > What is IIRC and ASR? And are you saying that you do need to use a floppy > for the system state? IIRC = If I Recall Correctly ASR = Automatic System Restore, an optional function of ntbackup. ASR is the option in ntbackup that lets you create a restorable, bootable backup of Windows. Otherwise, you have only data backups, which will require a running copy of Windows for restoration. The data will probably not include registry entries for applications. If you want that, you'll be using ASR, and that means you need a floppy. ASR doesn't use the floppy for your user data as such; it's disk and volume information so it knows what to restore to. >> For example, Acronis TrueImage and Norton Ghost don't require floppies at >> any point in the process, and you will get a complete, quickly restorable >> system image. And from what I observe here, these images are *much* >> more >> reliable than the results of ntbackup. > > The microsoft representative I spoke to before purchasing Windows XP pro > stated that the backup program contained within the operating system is > the > best way to create a complete system backup that can be used to quickly > restore the system to it's state at time of backup. "Best" is a rather subjective term, and given the number of posts you can see here about failures with ntbackup, I'd say it's possible to challenge that evaluation. And I would suggest that a backup app that *requires* a floppy drive is no longer the "best" solution, and hasn't been for some time. As to "quickly", for reference, I often do complete drive images, 30 gig or more in about a half hour. Restoring to a new, replacement drive takes about the same time. However, I often do this with the drive hosted in another system. And I'm including the time to move the drive from the original system to a USB2 drive adapter. Now, your description of the required task sounds a lot like ASR, and it requires a floppy. You might be able to hack a redirection to an image, but if you do this, you *must* test the backup and restore process to see if your hack breaks it. And that carries its own risks, as the ASR restore process starts with wiping the Windows volume. So, you'll need to have another known-good backup or swap in a sacrificial drive to test with. So I certainly won't recommend that you try this, unless your time and data are of very low value. > When you say, MUCH more reliable, what do you mean!? Backups may not work > if I use the inhouse backup program!? That is what I mean, yes. Some people have good results with ntbackup. Others don't. You must test to find out what works - and more importantly, what doesn't work - for you. If you're trying to get around basic requirements, you generally aren't tipping the scales in your favour. > The reality is, I just want to create a Floppy Image to write the > important > restore stuff windows wants and needs to save to a floppy. This can not > be > hard to do. Well, the reality is, it *can* be hard to do, if it isn't supported. And if your workaround doesn't turn out to really work, you're basically scre... ah, you may not be in a desirable position. Unless you test it thoroughly, you'll find this out at the worst possible time. > I just can not figure out how to do this. The short answer may be that you don't. You use something else that doesn't rely on floppies, but creates bootable CDs or DVDs instead, or creates fully restorable, bootable images to a hard disk. And that something isn't ntbackup. Or, get an external floppy drive. > Good lord I can not even remember the last time I've seen a floppy! ha! And many new systems don't come with them. Perhaps later versions of ntbackup will create bootable optical media (or write to it in the first place!), but it doesn't do that now. You probably don't see a lot of tape drives on PCs, either. > thanks for the software tips, though I would rather minimize the software > I > have loaded into windows XP, until I become more familiar and comfortable > with it, just in case there are conflict issues with ArcGIS. When I start to service a machine, I normally back the drives up by removing them, attach them to a host system, and image them there. This works very well, and normally is under 30 minutes to back up or restore 30+gig of data. If you are using a network, some versions of imaging software can be loaded onto a central backup system, much smaller agents loaded on the PCs. The PCs will then be backed up to the central system over the network. Note that this usually *requires* that user accounts have passwords. These versions are also a *lot* more expensive than floppy drives - but can be much more reliable. The term "expensive" should be evaluated as a comparison between the backup utility price and the value of your data, and your time. Talk to the ArcGIS vendor and manufacturer support about backup compatibilites. They are your best first source of information on this topic. And whatever backup solution you look at, test it first. HTH -pk <snippage>
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