Guest BeasleyM Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 My notebook has an eSATA port but there's no documentation on how to use it. Connecting a drive to this port elicits no action from the notebook; plug and play does nothing. However, the drive can be added using the Disk Management utility on the control panel. The down side is I can find no way of removing the drive short of rebooting and removing the drive prior to XP starting up. I've tried turning of caching but XP still hangs whenever any software tries to find the drive that was there. So this is an unworkable solution for a notebook in my mind. I can find noting on the Microsoft website mentioning eSATA. Ditto for the notebook manaufacturer. So am I missing somethings or is this just another great idea that has not yet been really been fully implemented by Microsoft/OEMs?
Guest dobey Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 Re: connecting an eSATA hard drive Is the drive formatted? If not you will need to use Disk Management to format first. Usually the "Safely Remove Hardware Icon" appears when you plug in an eSATA drive. Having said that when I try to use "Safely Remove hardware" with my eSATA, I get a message about another process using it. I usually just turn off the drive or unplug it. Provided you have finished copying your files, and haven't set any running program to use that drive, defrag etc it's not usually a problem. "BeasleyM" <BeasleyM@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:12AC1D40-9B15-439E-99EF-22C5513C3007@microsoft.com... > My notebook has an eSATA port but there's no documentation on how to use > it. > Connecting a drive to this port elicits no action from the notebook; plug > and > play does nothing. > > However, the drive can be added using the Disk Management utility on the > control panel. The down side is I can find no way of removing the drive > short of rebooting and removing the drive prior to XP starting up. I've > tried turning of caching but XP still hangs whenever any software tries to > find the drive that was there. So this is an unworkable solution for a > notebook in my mind. > > I can find noting on the Microsoft website mentioning eSATA. Ditto for > the > notebook manaufacturer. > > So am I missing somethings or is this just another great idea that has not > yet been really been fully implemented by Microsoft/OEMs?
Guest Andrew E. Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 RE: connecting an eSATA hard drive As with desktop pcs,notebook being the same,a SATA hd must be configured in the BIOS,by default the SATA controller is disabled.Set the BIOS to use both IDE & SATA,youre pc user manual will give more info. "BeasleyM" wrote: > My notebook has an eSATA port but there's no documentation on how to use it. > Connecting a drive to this port elicits no action from the notebook; plug and > play does nothing. > > However, the drive can be added using the Disk Management utility on the > control panel. The down side is I can find no way of removing the drive > short of rebooting and removing the drive prior to XP starting up. I've > tried turning of caching but XP still hangs whenever any software tries to > find the drive that was there. So this is an unworkable solution for a > notebook in my mind. > > I can find noting on the Microsoft website mentioning eSATA. Ditto for the > notebook manaufacturer. > > So am I missing somethings or is this just another great idea that has not > yet been really been fully implemented by Microsoft/OEMs?
Guest Anna Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 Re: connecting an eSATA hard drive "BeasleyM" <BeasleyM@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:12AC1D40-9B15-439E-99EF-22C5513C3007@microsoft.com... > My notebook has an eSATA port but there's no documentation on how to use > it. > Connecting a drive to this port elicits no action from the notebook; plug > and > play does nothing. > > However, the drive can be added using the Disk Management utility on the > control panel. The down side is I can find no way of removing the drive > short of rebooting and removing the drive prior to XP starting up. I've > tried turning of caching but XP still hangs whenever any software tries to > find the drive that was there. So this is an unworkable solution for a > notebook in my mind. > > I can find noting on the Microsoft website mentioning eSATA. Ditto for > the > notebook manaufacturer. > > So am I missing somethings or is this just another great idea that has not > yet been really been fully implemented by Microsoft/OEMs? BeasleyM: 1. Specifically, how are you connecting your SATA external HDD to the eSATA port on your notebook? Are you using an external eSATA enclosure or just a bare drive? 2. We'll assume if you're using an eSATA external enclosure it's non-defective. And we'll similarly assume the enclosed SATA HDD is likewise non-defective. 3. When you say "the drive can be added using the Disk Management utility on the control panel.", you're really referring to the XP Disk Management utility, aren't you, not the "Disk drives" section in the Control Panel, right? I assume the drive is listed in the latter, right? 4. So when you say "the drive can be added..." I take it you're indicating that you were able to assign a drive letter to the device because one was not originally shown? Or what are you indicating when you say "the drive can be added..."? 5. If this is truly a situation where you have a SATA-to-SATA data connection through the eSATA port on your notebook, the system will treat that drive as a "normal" *internal* HDD, just like any other internally connected fixed HDD in your system. Exactly the same. So it's really not clear (at least to me) exactly what your problem is with this drive. Presumably it's "hot-pluggable" & "hot swappable", roughly similar to a USB external HDD. There is no need to "turn off write caching". The "Enable write caching on the disk" item in Control Panel is ordinarily checked for this device. Just treat the eSATA external HDD as if it is a fixed, internal HDD with the added advantages of being "hot-pluggable" & "hot swappable" as previously noted. This provides substantial advantages over a USB external HDD in that its performance is substantially superior and it is a *bootable* device. BTW, I would be interested in learning the make/model of your notebook. Anna
Guest Bill Drake Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 Re: connecting an eSATA hard drive Hi, BeasleyM. First of all , it is completely normal to have to use the Disk Management Utility to partition and format the drive when first installed. The drive comes unformatted from the manufacturer, so the steps you took to get the drive recognized by Windows are completely normal and correct. However, once the drive can be "seen" by Windows - it is automatically mounted at startup or whenever the drive is connected to the system. Again, this is normal and correct. Regardless of the above, there are issues with *any* external drive that is seen by Windows as equivalent-to-an-internal hard-disk when you try to *disconnect* the drive from the system while Windows is still running. This is also normal and correct, as there are specific housekeeping functions which *must* be performed before any equivalent-to-an-internal-hard-disk drive can be unmounted. Things to check: 1. Windows XP will automatically add USB, Firewire or eSATA disks to the list of drives monitored by System Restore. This plays merry hob with the ability to remove the drive while Windows is running. Go to Control Panel/System/System Restore and untick the external drive from the list of drives that System Restore is using. Note: Changing system parameters will cause System Restore to automatically add any external drive back onto the list of drives that System Restore monitors. Personally, I find this a complete PITA, and I routinely disable System Restore as a result. However, this means I am then utterly dependent on *other* means of recovering from driver or software install problems. I use Ghost for backups to take the place of System Restore. I do NOT recommend disabling System Restore if you do not have a reliable and proven backup strategy in place before you disable System Restore. 2. Norton Utilities Protected Recycle Bin automatically adds its monitoring functions to any equivalent-to-an-internal-hard-disk drive added to the system. This includes USB, Firewire and eSATA external hard disks. In order for the drive to be removable while the system is running, the Protected Recycle Bin support must be disabled for the external hard disk. Fortunately, the Norton Utilities Protected Recycle Bin is a little smarter than Windows System Restore. Once you disable this beast for the selected drive-letter - it *stays* disabled. To make this change, right-click on the Recycle Bin, select Properties and remove the checkmark on the appropriate drive letter so that the Norton Recycle Bin enhancements are disabled for that drive letter. Leave the enhancements enabled for all permanently installed Hard Disks. With the above modifications in place, you should then be able to use the "Safely Remove Hardware" item in your System Tray to properly dismount the eSATA Hard Disk while Windows is running. Note: I have found that there are times when Windows does not properly respond to the first request to dismount the target drive letter. If this happens, try again. Recent Windows updates have improved this particular glitch, so this may not occur for you - but I have had long periods where I had to tell Windows to dismount the drive, accept the first failure and then tell Windows to dismount the drive a second time before the "Safe to remove Hardware" item would appear in my System Tray. Best I can do for now. <tm> Bill BeasleyM wrote: > My notebook has an eSATA port but there's no documentation > on how to use it. Connecting a drive to this port elicits no action > from the notebook; plug and play does nothing. > > However, the drive can be added using the Disk Management > utility on the control panel. The down side is I can find no way > of removing the drive short of rebooting and removing the drive > prior to XP starting up. I've tried turning of caching but XP still > hangs whenever any software tries to find the drive that was > there. So this is an unworkable solution for a notebook in my > mind. > > I can find noting on the Microsoft website mentioning eSATA. Ditto > for the notebook manaufacturer. > > So am I missing somethings or is this just another great idea that > has not yet been really been fully implemented by Microsoft/OEMs?
Guest Anna Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 Re: connecting an eSATA hard drive > BeasleyM wrote: >> My notebook has an eSATA port but there's no documentation >> on how to use it. Connecting a drive to this port elicits no action >> from the notebook; plug and play does nothing. >> >> However, the drive can be added using the Disk Management >> utility on the control panel. The down side is I can find no way >> of removing the drive short of rebooting and removing the drive >> prior to XP starting up. I've tried turning of caching but XP still >> hangs whenever any software tries to find the drive that was >> there. So this is an unworkable solution for a notebook in my >> mind. >> >> I can find noting on the Microsoft website mentioning eSATA. Ditto >> for the notebook manaufacturer. >> >> So am I missing somethings or is this just another great idea that >> has not yet been really been fully implemented by Microsoft/OEMs? Anna responds... BeasleyM: 1. Specifically, how are you connecting your SATA external HDD to the eSATA port on your notebook? Are you using an external eSATA enclosure or just a bare drive? 2. We'll assume if you're using an eSATA external enclosure it's non-defective. And we'll similarly assume the enclosed SATA HDD is likewise non-defective. 3. When you say "the drive can be added using the Disk Management utility on the control panel.", you're really referring to the XP Disk Management utility, aren't you, not the "Disk drives" section in the Control Panel, right? I assume the drive is listed in the latter, right? 4. So when you say "the drive can be added..." I take it you're indicating that you were able to assign a drive letter to the device because one was not originally shown? Or what are you indicating when you say "the drive can be added..."? 5. If this is truly a situation where you have a SATA-to-SATA data connection through the eSATA port on your notebook, the system will treat that drive as a "normal" *internal* HDD, just like any other internally connected fixed HDD in your system. Exactly the same. So it's really not clear (at least to me) exactly what your problem is with this drive. Presumably it's "hot-pluggable" & "hot swappable", roughly similar to a USB external HDD. There is no need to "turn off write caching". The "Enable write caching on the disk" item in Control Panel is ordinarily checked for this device. Just treat the eSATA external HDD as if it is a fixed, internal HDD with the added advantages of being "hot-pluggable" & "hot swappable" as previously noted. This provides substantial advantages over a USB external HDD in that its performance is substantially superior and it is a *bootable* device. BTW, I would be interested in learning the make/model of your notebook. Anna "Bill Drake" <bdrake@telus.net> wrote in message news:eyMIMfd3HHA.5880@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > Hi, BeasleyM. First of all , it is completely normal to have to > use the Disk Management Utility to partition and format the > drive when first installed. The drive comes unformatted from > the manufacturer, so the steps you took to get the drive > recognized by Windows are completely normal and correct. > > However, once the drive can be "seen" by Windows - it is > automatically mounted at startup or whenever the drive is > connected to the system. Again, this is normal and correct. > > Regardless of the above, there are issues with *any* external > drive that is seen by Windows as equivalent-to-an-internal > hard-disk when you try to *disconnect* the drive from the system > while Windows is still running. This is also normal and correct, > as there are specific housekeeping functions which *must* be > performed before any equivalent-to-an-internal-hard-disk drive > can be unmounted. > > Things to check: > > 1. Windows XP will automatically add USB, Firewire or eSATA disks > to the list of drives monitored by System Restore. This plays > merry hob with the ability to remove the drive while Windows is > running. Go to Control Panel/System/System Restore and untick > the external drive from the list of drives that System Restore is > using. > > Note: Changing system parameters will cause System Restore > to automatically add any external drive back onto the list > of drives that System Restore monitors. Personally, I find > this a complete PITA, and I routinely disable System > Restore as a result. However, this means I am then utterly > dependent on *other* means of recovering from driver or > software install problems. I use Ghost for backups to take > the place of System Restore. I do NOT recommend disabling > System Restore if you do not have a reliable and proven > backup strategy in place before you disable System Restore. > > 2. Norton Utilities Protected Recycle Bin automatically adds its > monitoring functions to any equivalent-to-an-internal-hard-disk > drive added to the system. This includes USB, Firewire and > eSATA external hard disks. In order for the drive to be removable > while the system is running, the Protected Recycle Bin support > must be disabled for the external hard disk. > > Fortunately, the Norton Utilities Protected Recycle Bin is a little > smarter than Windows System Restore. Once you disable this > beast for the selected drive-letter - it *stays* disabled. To make > this change, right-click on the Recycle Bin, select Properties and > remove the checkmark on the appropriate drive letter so that > the Norton Recycle Bin enhancements are disabled for that drive > letter. Leave the enhancements enabled for all permanently > installed Hard Disks. > > With the above modifications in place, you should then be able to use > the "Safely Remove Hardware" item in your System Tray to properly > dismount the eSATA Hard Disk while Windows is running. > > Note: I have found that there are times when Windows does not > properly respond to the first request to dismount the target > drive letter. If this happens, try again. Recent Windows > updates have improved this particular glitch, so this may not > occur for you - but I have had long periods where I had to > tell Windows to dismount the drive, accept the first failure and > then tell Windows to dismount the drive a second time before > the "Safe to remove Hardware" item would appear in my > System Tray. > > > Best I can do for now. <tm> > > > Bill Bill's comments as they apply to the "hot-plugging" capability of SATA HDDs are not entirely correct, and I will get to that in a moment. However, he *is* correct when he indicates that the SATA HDD must be partitioned & formatted before it can be "seen" in the system as a functioning HDD. I had assumed that the OP was working with a commercial eSATA HDD which had been partitioned/formatted by the manufacturer of the eSATA enclosure. I also assumed the OP was aware of this requirement. It is possible the OP had purchased an eSATA HDD and had installed a new SATA HDD in that device and failed to partition/format it. His or her post is unclear re this. So conceivably this may account for his/her problem. Now as to Bill's other comments re the functioning of a SATA HDD in the system as related to its "hot plugging" capability. 1. It's a safe presumption I would think that the SATA HDD in question is a SATA-II (SATA-IO) HDD and not an older SATA I HDD. I mention this because my comments will apply to SATA II HDDs. Some SATA I HDDs did not have "hot-plugging" (or "hot-swapping") capability although I have to add that we've worked with many SATA I HDDs and virtually all had this capability. However, SATA I HDDs were not *required* to meet this specification. 2. However, all SATA-II HDDs, by specification, have "hot-plugging" capability. The other part of the equation is that the motherboard must also support this capability. Virtually every motherboard that I'm aware of manufactured over the past few years meets this specification. 3. The fact that a motherboard comes equipped with an eSATA port - as apparently is the case with the OP's notebook - is "ipso facto" evidence that the "hot-plugging" capability is supported by the system. 4. In any event, the OP's external SATA HDD installed in an eSATA external enclosure is "hot-pluggable". Presumably the OP is using (or intends to use) the device as a secondary HDD for backup/storage purposes. However, as I indicated in my original post to the OP, the SATA HDD is potentially bootable with an XP OS installed on it. 5. There are certain similarities between this external eSATA HDD and a USB external HDD in that each is "hot-pluggable". With specific respect to the eSATA external HDD, there is no need to invoke any "Safely Remove Hardware" icon when removing the drive from the system. As a matter of fact with most motherboards the SRH icon will *not* even appear with reference to a SATA-connected HDD since the system basically treats the SATA-connected HDD (SATA or eSATA) as an internal HDD. The bottom line in all this is that the user can safely disconnect an eSATA HDD from a running system without invoking any special procedure. In this respect the process is similar to a USB external HDD. Similarly, an eSATA HDD can be connected to the system while the system is running. In either case there will be no physical damage to the disk nor will there be any loss or corruption of data as some consequence of this "hot plugging" capability in all normal situations. Anna
Guest Bill Drake Posted August 15, 2007 Posted August 15, 2007 Re: connecting an eSATA hard drive Hi, Anna. As far as I am aware, if a drive shows up in the "Safely Remove Hardware" list - then by definition it is using write-caching - which requires both a write-cache-disable routine, a *confirmation of write-cache-disable* and a notification from windows that there is nothing left in the windows-cache-buffers for that device - before the drive can be safely removed from the system. Note: See MSKB 811392 for more information on this subject. The article is written for Windows 2000, but it is germane to Windows XP as well. The problems with proper shutdown you mention that occurred with early SATA drives were not limited to SATA drives. They also occurred with PATA drives. The problem was most notorious with the HighPoint Technologies HPT366 RAID controller - which would corrupt the filesystem on shutdown because the driver would permit the system to shut down even though the drive had not yet returned the "confirmation of valid write-cache-disable" response. To use this controller safely, it was necessary to use Hard Disks with firmware which properly compensated for this problem with the HPT366 RAID controller hardware, BIOS insert, and driver. When I finally traced down what was going on with this problem and made the deficiency public - many of the hard disks that caused problems with the HPT366 got firmware updates - and those very same drives now work reliably with the HPT366. SATA was in its *very* early stages when all the above was finally put to rest. Nowadays, all drives (whether SATA or PATA is immaterial) are properly tested with RAID controllers to ensure the drives properly respond to the cache-flush command and properly *report* whether the write-cache-disable was successful or not. Note: The problem was not limited to PATA or SATA - this problem goes all the way back to the days of SCSI. I saw this problem with SCSI drives when I was researching and debugging SCSI disk instability as well - and again firmware and sometimes hardware updates were required to solve the problem. > 5. There are certain similarities between this external > eSATA HDD and a USB external HDD in that each is > "hot-pluggable". With specific respect to the eSATA > external HDD, there is no need to invoke any "Safely > Remove Hardware" icon when removing the drive from > the system. As a matter of fact with most motherboards > the SRH icon will *not* even appear with reference to a > SATA-connected HDD since the system basically treats > the SATA-connected HDD (SATA or eSATA) as an > internal HDD. Again, as far as I am aware, because an eSATA drive (like a USB or Firewire drive) will have its write-caching enabled when Windows decides to use it as an "equivalent-to-an-internal-hard -disk" device - it is mandatory to issue a cache-write-disable command and receive a valid cache-write-disable-confirmed response from the drive before it is safe to dismount the disk. The only way it is safe to dismount the disk *without* requiring the use of the "Safely Remove Hardware" icon is if the write-cache for that disk is *disabled* from-the-get-go and the user is very careful to ensure that the disk-access light is out and all disk-writes are complete before disconnecting the drive. Now, it is possible that *some* eSATA, USB or Firewire implementations are done with write-cache-disabled by default. However, that it no way means that *all* eSATA, USB or Firewire implementations are done that way. If something shows up in the "Safely Remove Hardware" list - then that is Windows' way of saying that item has write-caching enabled and it is NOT safe to remove the item until the "Safe to Remove Hardware" balloon appears after the user tells Windows they wish to dismount that device. Best I can do for now. <tm> Bill
Guest Anna Posted August 15, 2007 Posted August 15, 2007 Re: connecting an eSATA hard drive Bill: I can only repeat what I previously posted re this issue in terms of our rather extensive experience with SATA/eSATA HDDs over the past three years or so... 1. In only a small minority of cases involving a rather small minority of motherboards will the Safely Remove Hardware icon even appear when a SATA/eSATA HDD (internal or external) is connected in the system. In most cases the SRH icon will *not* appear. 2. And if & when that SRH icon does appear with respect to an external SATA/eSATA HDD, it need not be accessed/invoked when disconnecting that drive from the system. There will be no data loss nor data corruption nor physical damage to the disk in that instance. At least none that we've ever encountered working with every major brand of SATA-II disks in a wide variety of systems supporting the SATA-II 3 Gb/s data interface (see below). For all intents & purposes the SRH icon and its process is irrelevant in this situation. 3. Again, my comments are in reference to SATA-II (SATA-IO) HDDs meeting the "hot pluggable" "hot-swappable" specifications as SATA-II HDDs do. While our experience with SATA-I drives parallels that with our experience with SATA-II HDDs, SATA-I HDDs were not required to meet that specification. And our experience with SATA-I HDDs in this situation has been quite limited as compared with our experience with SATA-II HDDs. 4. Our experience with a fairly wide variety of motherboards meeting the SATA-II 3 Gb/s data interface indicate that every such motherboard meets those "hot-pluggable" "hot-swappable" specifications. Again, this is based upon our experience with those motherboards. For all intents & purposes an external SATA-II HDD (SATA or eSATA) connected in a system supporting the 3 Gb/s SATA data interface can be treated just like a USB external HDD in terms of connecting/disconnecting the device in & from the system without any special treatment. It is, in that sense, a "hot-pluggable" device. There is no need to invoke the SRH icon in the event that icon does appear nor is there any need for any special command or process in this regard. Anna "Bill Drake" <bdrake@telus.net> wrote in message news:%23nnF2Du3HHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > Hi, Anna. As far as I am aware, if a drive shows up in the > "Safely Remove Hardware" list - then by definition it is using > write-caching - which requires both a write-cache-disable > routine, a *confirmation of write-cache-disable* and a > notification from windows that there is nothing left in the > windows-cache-buffers for that device - before the drive > can be safely removed from the system. > > Note: See MSKB 811392 for more information on this subject. > The article is written for Windows 2000, but it is germane > to Windows XP as well. > > The problems with proper shutdown you mention that occurred > with early SATA drives were not limited to SATA drives. They > also occurred with PATA drives. > > The problem was most notorious with the HighPoint Technologies > HPT366 RAID controller - which would corrupt the filesystem on > shutdown because the driver would permit the system to shut > down even though the drive had not yet returned the "confirmation > of valid write-cache-disable" response. > > To use this controller safely, it was necessary to use Hard Disks > with firmware which properly compensated for this problem with > the HPT366 RAID controller hardware, BIOS insert, and driver. > > When I finally traced down what was going on with this problem > and made the deficiency public - many of the hard disks that > caused problems with the HPT366 got firmware updates - and > those very same drives now work reliably with the HPT366. > > SATA was in its *very* early stages when all the above was > finally put to rest. Nowadays, all drives (whether SATA or > PATA is immaterial) are properly tested with RAID controllers > to ensure the drives properly respond to the cache-flush > command and properly *report* whether the write-cache-disable > was successful or not. > > Note: The problem was not limited to PATA or SATA - this > problem goes all the way back to the days of SCSI. > I saw this problem with SCSI drives when I was > researching and debugging SCSI disk instability as > well - and again firmware and sometimes hardware > updates were required to solve the problem. > >> 5. There are certain similarities between this external >> eSATA HDD and a USB external HDD in that each is >> "hot-pluggable". With specific respect to the eSATA >> external HDD, there is no need to invoke any "Safely >> Remove Hardware" icon when removing the drive from >> the system. As a matter of fact with most motherboards >> the SRH icon will *not* even appear with reference to a >> SATA-connected HDD since the system basically treats >> the SATA-connected HDD (SATA or eSATA) as an >> internal HDD. > > Again, as far as I am aware, because an eSATA drive (like a > USB or Firewire drive) will have its write-caching enabled when > Windows decides to use it as an "equivalent-to-an-internal-hard > -disk" device - it is mandatory to issue a cache-write-disable > command and receive a valid cache-write-disable-confirmed > response from the drive before it is safe to dismount the disk. > > The only way it is safe to dismount the disk *without* requiring > the use of the "Safely Remove Hardware" icon is if the > write-cache for that disk is *disabled* from-the-get-go and > the user is very careful to ensure that the disk-access light is > out and all disk-writes are complete before disconnecting the > drive. > > Now, it is possible that *some* eSATA, USB or Firewire > implementations are done with write-cache-disabled by default. > However, that it no way means that *all* eSATA, USB or Firewire > implementations are done that way. If something shows up in the > "Safely Remove Hardware" list - then that is Windows' way of > saying that item has write-caching enabled and it is NOT safe > to remove the item until the "Safe to Remove Hardware" balloon > appears after the user tells Windows they wish to dismount that > device. > > > Best I can do for now. <tm> > > > Bill
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