Guest Bob M Posted August 31, 2007 Posted August 31, 2007 On my HP laptop, the "Properties" of the D: drive show 2.68GB used. On a copy of everything on this drive, placed on a Desktop, the same data is m731 MB. Both computers use Windows XP. The Laptop is Home Edition, while the desktop is Media Center edition. Both use NTFS. "Hidden" and system files are shown. Why such a large difference? I read somewhere that the "Cluster size" of all NTFS drives is 4096 bytes, so that would not explain the difference. What am I missing? ----------- notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net Remove "not" for return address.
Guest John Wunderlich Posted August 31, 2007 Posted August 31, 2007 Re: Size of data on disk looks wrong Bob M <notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:k2egd319sndrle3g49u6palvfbvh30gce4@4ax.com: > On my HP laptop, the "Properties" of the D: drive show 2.68GB > used. On a copy of everything on this drive, placed on a Desktop, > the same data is m731 MB. Both computers use Windows XP. The > Laptop is Home Edition, while the desktop is Media Center edition. > Both use NTFS. "Hidden" and system files are shown. Why such a > large difference? I read somewhere that the "Cluster size" of all > NTFS drives is 4096 bytes, so that would not explain the > difference. What am I missing? > > ----------- > notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net > Remove "not" for return address. > Just as a guess, there's a system protected & hidden folder at the root level named "System Volume Information" that contains the restore points. That folder is typically inaccessible but can contain many gigabytes of information as configured in: Right-click "My Computer"->Properties->System Restore Tab. HTH, John
Guest Bob M Posted August 31, 2007 Posted August 31, 2007 Re: Size of data on disk looks wrong On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:37:55 GMT, John Wunderlich <jwunderlich@lycos.com> wrote: >Just as a guess, there's a system protected & hidden folder at the root >level named "System Volume Information" that contains the restore >points. That folder is typically inaccessible but can contain many >gigabytes of information as configured in: >Right-click "My Computer"->Properties->System Restore Tab. > >HTH, > John > Thanks for replying. That could be a partial explanation of the difference, but when I do as you suggest, it shows that it is set for a maximum file size of 630MB. But even if I add that, it is still only about 1.6GB, not the 2.68GB it is reporting. When, in DOS, I go DIR /AHS /S /P It shows the SVI directory, but it has no files and is zero size. There are many thumbs.db files shown, but they only add up to 1.9MB. I have the Tools, Folder Options,View setup to 1. Display contents of system folders and 2. Show Hidden and System files. BUT: On the Home Edition Laptop, I can't see the SVI listed, whereas on the Media..Desktop, the SVI does show. Something very strange is lurking in there. ----------- notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net Remove "not" for return address.
Guest R. McCarty Posted August 31, 2007 Posted August 31, 2007 Re: Size of data on disk looks wrong Might want to investigate/toggle the Registry key value for SuperHidden. Key found at: HKey_Current_User\Software\Microsoft\Windows\ CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced "Bob M" <notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:phtgd3pf3lb34va88mo5tm1fc8bv909v2f@4ax.com... > On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:37:55 GMT, John Wunderlich <jwunderlich@lycos.com> > wrote: > >>Just as a guess, there's a system protected & hidden folder at the root >>level named "System Volume Information" that contains the restore >>points. That folder is typically inaccessible but can contain many >>gigabytes of information as configured in: >>Right-click "My Computer"->Properties->System Restore Tab. >> >>HTH, >> John >> > > Thanks for replying. That could be a partial explanation of the > difference, > but when I do as you suggest, it shows that it is set for a maximum file > size > of 630MB. But even if I add that, it is still only about 1.6GB, not the > 2.68GB > it is reporting. > When, in DOS, I go DIR /AHS /S /P It shows the SVI directory, but it has > no > files and is zero size. There are many thumbs.db files shown, but they > only > add up to 1.9MB. > I have the Tools, Folder Options,View setup to 1. Display contents of > system > folders and 2. Show Hidden and System files. BUT: On the Home Edition > Laptop, > I can't see the SVI listed, whereas on the Media..Desktop, the SVI does > show. > Something very strange is lurking in there. > > ----------- > notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net > Remove "not" for return address.
Guest Bob M Posted August 31, 2007 Posted August 31, 2007 Re: Size of data on disk looks wrong On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 16:29:43 -0400, "R. McCarty" <PcEngWork-NoSpam_@mindspring.com> wrote: >Might want to investigate/toggle the Registry key value for SuperHidden. >Key found at: >HKey_Current_User\Software\Microsoft\Windows\ > CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced > Yes! That makes the System Volume Information folder visible. That key was zero on the Laptop, and one on the desktop. But: the size of SVI is still zero. And there are still 2.0 GB unaccounted for. ----------- notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net Remove "not" for return address.
Guest R. McCarty Posted September 1, 2007 Posted September 1, 2007 Re: Size of data on disk looks wrong You do understand that there are 2 distinct/different ways to show usage 1.) Size 2.) Size on disk. The second takes into account what is called "Slack Space". By default disk volumes use a 4-K Cluster size. If you write a 1-Kbyte file into a cluster, the remaining space is left unused or as Slack. So the file itself is 1-Kbyte but it consumes a whole cluster so it's size on disk is = 4 Kbytes. If your Right Click a primary folder ( Program Files, Windows..) and take properties you'll see the following: Size: 2.36 GB Size on Disk: 2..87 GB I missed your original post, so I don't quite follow how you determined you've got missing disk space. "Bob M" <notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:659hd3t0oonh8s91m1jkvuvieebtjdbpvu@4ax.com... > On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 16:29:43 -0400, "R. McCarty" > <PcEngWork-NoSpam_@mindspring.com> wrote: > >>Might want to investigate/toggle the Registry key value for SuperHidden. >>Key found at: >>HKey_Current_User\Software\Microsoft\Windows\ >> CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced >> > Yes! That makes the System Volume Information folder visible. > That key was zero on the Laptop, and one on the desktop. > But: the size of SVI is still zero. And there are still 2.0 GB unaccounted > for. > > ----------- > notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net > Remove "not" for return address.
Guest dobey Posted September 1, 2007 Posted September 1, 2007 Re: Size of data on disk looks wrong "Bob M" <notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:659hd3t0oonh8s91m1jkvuvieebtjdbpvu@4ax.com... > On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 16:29:43 -0400, "R. McCarty" > <PcEngWork-NoSpam_@mindspring.com> wrote: > >>Might want to investigate/toggle the Registry key value for SuperHidden. >>Key found at: >>HKey_Current_User\Software\Microsoft\Windows\ >> CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced >> > Yes! That makes the System Volume Information folder visible. > That key was zero on the Laptop, and one on the desktop. > But: the size of SVI is still zero. And there are still 2.0 GB unaccounted > for. > > ----------- > notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net > Remove "not" for return address. Have you taken into account your pagefile and hibernation file? These are usually large. I'm don't think the pagefile would copy, but the other might.
Guest Bob M Posted September 1, 2007 Posted September 1, 2007 Re: Size of data on disk looks wrong On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 18:11:09 +0800, "dobey" <a@v.nox> wrote: >Have you taken into account your pagefile and hibernation file? > >These are usually large. I'm don't think the pagefile would copy, but the >other might. > Both of those files appear only on the C: drive. They do not show up on the D: drive I am looking at. I suspected fragmentation, but the software says the drive is not in need of de-fragging. I may try it anyway. FWIW, if I manually add up all the bytes of the top level directories it adds up to approx 600 to 700meg, which is what my CD backup software agrees with. Another possibly unrelated item: When I tried to make a copy of drive D: to another empty drive, the software stopped with an error saying that The System Volume Information directory was in use. It aborted, leaving only about 1/2 the data on the target drive. I did eventually get a good copy. If all else fails, I will delete everything on the drive, and copy it back. I am confident that the problem will be solved, but still, an unexplained 2GB is disturbing. ----------- notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net Remove "not" for return address.
Guest R. McCarty Posted September 1, 2007 Posted September 1, 2007 Re: Size of data on disk looks wrong If the data is backed up, then "Force" a Chkdsk D: /F on the drive. It's possible the volume has space marked "Used" incorrectly. A Fix pass with Chkdsk will force Windows to re-evaluate Free Space on the volume and may fix the Bit Map data. "Bob M" <notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:pcnid3955s98m15csmjmnfiglepdv73bb9@4ax.com... > On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 18:11:09 +0800, "dobey" <a@v.nox> wrote: > >>Have you taken into account your pagefile and hibernation file? >> >>These are usually large. I'm don't think the pagefile would copy, but the >>other might. >> > Both of those files appear only on the C: drive. They do not show up on > the D: > drive I am looking at. > > I suspected fragmentation, but the software says the drive is not in need > of > de-fragging. I may try it anyway. > > FWIW, if I manually add up all the bytes of the top level directories it > adds > up to approx 600 to 700meg, which is what my CD backup software agrees > with. > > Another possibly unrelated item: When I tried to make a copy of drive D: > to > another empty drive, the software stopped with an error saying that The > System > Volume Information directory was in use. It aborted, leaving only about > 1/2 > the data on the target drive. I did eventually get a good copy. > > If all else fails, I will delete everything on the drive, and copy it > back. I > am confident that the problem will be solved, but still, an unexplained > 2GB is > disturbing. > > ----------- > notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net > Remove "not" for return address.
Guest Bob M Posted September 1, 2007 Posted September 1, 2007 Re: Size of data on disk looks wrong On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 20:04:22 -0400, "R. McCarty" <PcEngWork-NoSpam_@mindspring.com> wrote: >You do understand that there are 2 distinct/different ways to show >usage 1.) Size 2.) Size on disk. The second takes into account what >is called "Slack Space". By default disk volumes use a 4-K Cluster >size. If you write a 1-Kbyte file into a cluster, the remaining space is >left unused or as Slack. So the file itself is 1-Kbyte but it consumes >a whole cluster so it's size on disk is = 4 Kbytes. >If your Right Click a primary folder ( Program Files, Windows..) and >take properties you'll see the following: > >Size: 2.36 GB >Size on Disk: 2..87 GB Yes, I am aware of the 4096 byte cluster size in NT. Older systems used a cluster size which was different for each size of the drive. I don't think the difference I am encountering could be due to the Slack Space. > >I missed your original post, so I don't quite follow how you determined >you've got missing disk space. The "Properties" for the D: drive says the used space is 2.68GB while a copy of all the data to another computer is only 731Mb When I look at the maximum size allowed for the system restore file, it says it is set to about 600 to 700MB, but I don't see any file this size on the D: drive. The System Volume Information Folder always reports xero size, so where is the system restore file for D:? ----------- notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net Remove "not" for return address.
Guest R. McCarty Posted September 1, 2007 Posted September 1, 2007 Re: Size of data on disk looks wrong Pro or Home ? - If Pro, add your Username to the ACL (Security ) (TAB) for System Volume Information and grant yourself Full Rights. Once that is done you can navigate into SVI and see content. You may have orphaned Restore Point Folders that need purging. If Home you'll have to boot Safe Mode to make ACL changes. "Bob M" <notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:ahoid3d3vivcec3mn25d8r6oqpc31ctano@4ax.com... > On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 20:04:22 -0400, "R. McCarty" > <PcEngWork-NoSpam_@mindspring.com> wrote: > >>You do understand that there are 2 distinct/different ways to show >>usage 1.) Size 2.) Size on disk. The second takes into account what >>is called "Slack Space". By default disk volumes use a 4-K Cluster >>size. If you write a 1-Kbyte file into a cluster, the remaining space is >>left unused or as Slack. So the file itself is 1-Kbyte but it consumes >>a whole cluster so it's size on disk is = 4 Kbytes. >>If your Right Click a primary folder ( Program Files, Windows..) and >>take properties you'll see the following: >> >>Size: 2.36 GB >>Size on Disk: 2..87 GB > Yes, I am aware of the 4096 byte cluster size in NT. Older systems used a > cluster size which was different for each size of the drive. > I don't think the difference I am encountering could be due to the Slack > Space. >> >>I missed your original post, so I don't quite follow how you determined >>you've got missing disk space. > The "Properties" for the D: drive says the used space is 2.68GB while a > copy > of all the data to another computer is only 731Mb > > When I look at the maximum size allowed for the system restore file, it > says > it is set to about 600 to 700MB, but I don't see any file this size on the > D: > drive. The System Volume Information Folder always reports xero size, so > where > is the system restore file for D:? > > ----------- > notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net > Remove "not" for return address.
Guest Bob M Posted September 1, 2007 Posted September 1, 2007 Re: Size of data on disk looks wrong On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 08:57:14 -0400, "R. McCarty" <PcEngWork-NoSpam_@mindspring.com> wrote: >If the data is backed up, then "Force" a Chkdsk D: /F on the drive. >It's possible the volume has space marked "Used" incorrectly. A >Fix pass with Chkdsk will force Windows to re-evaluate Free Space >on the volume and may fix the Bit Map data. > CHKDSK? an old DOS program? Anyway, thanks to all who replied. That did fix it. Now, the properties for D: say only 735MB is used. Much better! What initially caught my attention was an Acronis True Image backup that needed 2 DVDs to hold the data. I knew there wasn't that much on the drive. CHKDSK said: "Deleting Orphan file record segment 2672" "Chkdsk discovered free sapce marked as allocated in the Master File Table (MFT) bitmap." ----------- notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net Remove "not" for return address.
Guest dobey Posted September 1, 2007 Posted September 1, 2007 Re: Size of data on disk looks wrong "Bob M" <notbob-m1211@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:pcnid3955s98m15csmjmnfiglepdv73bb9@4ax.com... > On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 18:11:09 +0800, "dobey" <a@v.nox> wrote: > >>Have you taken into account your pagefile and hibernation file? >> >>These are usually large. I'm don't think the pagefile would copy, but the >>other might. >> > Both of those files appear only on the C: drive. They do not show up on > the D: > drive I am looking at. > > I suspected fragmentation, but the software says the drive is not in need > of > de-fragging. I may try it anyway. De-frag has nothing to do with file size, > > FWIW, if I manually add up all the bytes of the top level directories it > adds > up to approx 600 to 700meg, which is what my CD backup software agrees > with. > > Another possibly unrelated item: When I tried to make a copy of drive D: > to > another empty drive, the software stopped with an error saying that The > System > Volume Information directory was in use. It aborted, leaving only about > 1/2 > the data on the target drive. I did eventually get a good copy. Generally; files in use, some system files, or directories you don't have permissions for won't be copied. It's a failing of Windows that when such a message appears there is no button "skip" or "ignore file" so you can at least copy the rest of the files you selected initially. > > If all else fails, I will delete everything on the drive, and copy it > back. I > am confident that the problem will be solved, but still, an unexplained > 2GB is > disturbing. > I read the post about chkdsk fixing your problem. You must not run it very often or have some other problems to have such a large amount of unused space reported as in use. The error checking tool under the drive properties is just a GUI for chkdsk, and even though it shares the same name as an old DOS program, these things do "evolve". Glad to see your problem solved.
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