Guest mm Posted September 8, 2007 Posted September 8, 2007 So Verizon DSL is getting cheap and it's clear IMO that my current ISP (erols/rcn/starpower in Baltimore) is never going to have highspeed. Verizon sent me the kit and started billing me yesterday**, but not until I was on the last page of the Quick Start instructions and 2/3rds of the way through the CD did I learn that I can't, they say, use the USB port, that I have to have an ethernet card. I think I have one in the other room but haven't found it yet and I don't think it has a software CD to go with it. Since ethernet wasn't common iirc in 1998/9, do I need to find software somewhere else. (The ethernet card I found on ebay had a cd to go with it.) I know I could buy a whole card with cd for not much money, but I want to use the card I have. Otherwise, what was the point of saving it. :) Also curious why I can't just use the USB port for DSL. The instructions in the DSL kit said I would need drivers, but the included CD won't go down the USB path because it determined I have win98. I know an ethernet card is just a few bucks, but it's my curiosity and I wonder if I can get the USB drivers for Verizon DSL off the web or straight off the kit CD, and if so, what would the file names be, or what extension do driver files end in. (I may have known this stuff once, but it's fading away. :( ) And if not, why will USB work for my memory stick and and an early digital camera (that I just got NIB) but not for DSL, in win98 but will work in later OSes. If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Guest mm Posted September 8, 2007 Posted September 8, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 17:05:45 -0400, mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> wrote: > >The instructions in the DSL kit said I would need drivers, but the >included CD won't go down the USB path because it determined I have >win98. I know an ethernet card is just a few bucks, but it's my >curiosity and I wonder if I can get the USB drivers for Verizon DSL >off the web or straight off the kit CD, and if so, what would the file >names be, or what extension do driver files end in. (I may have known >this stuff once, but it's fading away. :( ) To add to one part of my question, I found the model number of the DSL modem and on the included CD there was a file for that model, which included 5 .sys files, one .cat file, one .dll file, and one .inf file. I can give more details if they would help. IIUC, it's possible to "execute" an .inf file, and that would install whatever drivers are appropriate. I could copy in the whole thing if soemone wants but it does have language for win98. Should I do it. Can I cause myself any harm? And why do they say that win98 requires ethernet? If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Guest MEB Posted September 8, 2007 Posted September 8, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? "mm" <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:4b26e3ds86tllnp3oolecod6c7rsdj2tqc@4ax.com... | So Verizon DSL is getting cheap and it's clear IMO that my current ISP | (erols/rcn/starpower in Baltimore) is never going to have highspeed. | | Verizon sent me the kit and started billing me yesterday**, but not | until I was on the last page of the Quick Start instructions and | 2/3rds of the way through the CD did I learn that I can't, they say, | use the USB port, that I have to have an ethernet card. | | I think I have one in the other room but haven't found it yet and I | don't think it has a software CD to go with it. Since ethernet wasn't | common iirc in 1998/9, do I need to find software somewhere else. | (The ethernet card I found on ebay had a cd to go with it.) | | I know I could buy a whole card with cd for not much money, but I want | to use the card I have. Otherwise, what was the point of saving it. | :) | | Also curious why I can't just use the USB port for DSL. | | The instructions in the DSL kit said I would need drivers, but the | included CD won't go down the USB path because it determined I have | win98. I know an ethernet card is just a few bucks, but it's my | curiosity and I wonder if I can get the USB drivers for Verizon DSL | off the web or straight off the kit CD, and if so, what would the file | names be, or what extension do driver files end in. (I may have known | this stuff once, but it's fading away. :( ) | | And if not, why will USB work for my memory stick and and an early | digital camera (that I just got NIB) but not for DSL, in win98 but | will work in later OSes. | | If you are inclined to email me | for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) Perhaps you can, however, without you supplying the group with what card you intend to use, we have no way to advise you of whether it might, or a driver... As for USB issues/drivers, you can download a universal driver, which will negate [for the most part] the need to install other specific drivers. Its called Maximus Decim Universal Driver, nusb31.exe [Win98SE only, and USB 2.0 only]. However, USB 2.0 will use more processing power/time slices than using a network card. USB also inflicts its own bottleneck to devices attached to it. -- MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com ________
Guest Jeff Richards Posted September 8, 2007 Posted September 8, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? You probably could use USB. See, for instance: http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-F5D5050-Networking-Ethernet-Adaptor/dp/B000062R4P However, if you have W98 (not W98SE) then USB can be problematic. But since you already have a network card, why bother. You should try installing the card you have - likely W98 will find generic drivers for it. If not, once you know the make and model number, it should be easy to find the required drivers on the 'net. -- Jeff Richards MS MVP (Windows - Shell/User) "mm" <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:4b26e3ds86tllnp3oolecod6c7rsdj2tqc@4ax.com... > So Verizon DSL is getting cheap and it's clear IMO that my current ISP > (erols/rcn/starpower in Baltimore) is never going to have highspeed. > > Verizon sent me the kit and started billing me yesterday**, but not > until I was on the last page of the Quick Start instructions and > 2/3rds of the way through the CD did I learn that I can't, they say, > use the USB port, that I have to have an ethernet card. > > I think I have one in the other room but haven't found it yet and I > don't think it has a software CD to go with it. Since ethernet wasn't > common iirc in 1998/9, do I need to find software somewhere else. > (The ethernet card I found on ebay had a cd to go with it.) > > I know I could buy a whole card with cd for not much money, but I want > to use the card I have. Otherwise, what was the point of saving it. > :) > > Also curious why I can't just use the USB port for DSL. > > The instructions in the DSL kit said I would need drivers, but the > included CD won't go down the USB path because it determined I have > win98. I know an ethernet card is just a few bucks, but it's my > curiosity and I wonder if I can get the USB drivers for Verizon DSL > off the web or straight off the kit CD, and if so, what would the file > names be, or what extension do driver files end in. (I may have known > this stuff once, but it's fading away. :( ) > > And if not, why will USB work for my memory stick and and an early > digital camera (that I just got NIB) but not for DSL, in win98 but > will work in later OSes. > > If you are inclined to email me > for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Guest dadiOH Posted September 9, 2007 Posted September 9, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? mm wrote: > Verizon sent me the kit and started billing me yesterday**, but not > until I was on the last page of the Quick Start instructions and > 2/3rds of the way through the CD did I learn that I can't, they say, > use the USB port, that I have to have an ethernet card. > > I think I have one in the other room but haven't found it yet and I > don't think it has a software CD to go with it. Since ethernet > wasn't common iirc in 1998/9, do I need to find software somewhere > else. (The ethernet card I found on ebay had a cd to go with it.) When I hooked up with Verizon DSL a few years ago the modem they included would theoretically function either with USB or NIC (ethernet card). My preferance was USB as I had no NIC. I don't recall if the USB worked and was lousy/unreliable or if it never worked at all but I spent $10 for a NIC. It works. -- dadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Guest John Dulak Posted September 9, 2007 Posted September 9, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? mm wrote: > On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 17:05:45 -0400, mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> > wrote: > >> The instructions in the DSL kit said I would need drivers, but the >> included CD won't go down the USB path because it determined I have >> win98. I know an ethernet card is just a few bucks, but it's my >> curiosity and I wonder if I can get the USB drivers for Verizon DSL >> off the web or straight off the kit CD, and if so, what would the file >> names be, or what extension do driver files end in. (I may have known >> this stuff once, but it's fading away. :( ) > > To add to one part of my question, I found the model number of the DSL > modem and on the included CD there was a file for that model, which > included 5 .sys files, one .cat file, one .dll file, and one .inf > file. I can give more details if they would help. > > IIUC, it's possible to "execute" an .inf file, and that would install > whatever drivers are appropriate. I could copy in the whole thing if > soemone wants but it does have language for win98. > > Should I do it. Can I cause myself any harm? > > And why do they say that win98 requires ethernet? > > If you are inclined to email me > for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) mm: Open the .INF file using notepad (it is a pure ASCII text file) and look for references to Windows 98. The CD I got from Verizion (Westell 6100 Modem/Router) had Win98 drivers for USB on it though I never used it. If you have the make and model of the NIC you should be able to find drivers for it as well. HTH & GL John -- \\\||/// ------------------o000----(o)(o)----000o---------------- ----------------------------()-------------------------- '' Madness takes its toll - Please have exact change. '' John Dulak - Gnomeway Services - http://tinyurl.com/2qs6o6
Guest mm Posted September 9, 2007 Posted September 9, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 09:11:36 +1000, "Jeff Richards" <JRichards@msn.com.au> wrote: >You probably could use USB. See, for instance: >http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-F5D5050-Networking-Ethernet-Adaptor/dp/B000062R4P > >However, if you have W98 (not W98SE) then USB can be problematic. But since >you already have a network card, why bother. I should have said that I have SE. Sorry. I should know better. > >You should try installing the card you have - likely W98 will find generic >drivers for it. If not, once you know the make and model number, it should >be easy to find the required drivers on the 'net. Well, I looked another place haven't found my card yet, and it's at least 5 years old by now, maybe 10. Will that be another bottleneck? They're selling 10/100/1000 Mbps cards now, and also at least on Ebay 10/100/ Mbps cards. Do I need the faster one for low-speed DSL (I forget the actual speed.) And shouldn't I buy the faster one anyhow? If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Guest mm Posted September 9, 2007 Posted September 9, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 18:31:34 -0400, mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> wrote: > >And why do they say that win98 requires ethernet? Replying to myself, I didn't real all of this They say a NIC is required for win98SE and strongly recommended for all others. If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Guest mm Posted September 10, 2007 Posted September 10, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 07:32:47 -0400, "dadiOH" <dadiOH@guesswhere.com> wrote: >mm wrote: > >> Verizon sent me the kit and started billing me yesterday**, but not >> until I was on the last page of the Quick Start instructions and >> 2/3rds of the way through the CD did I learn that I can't, they say, >> use the USB port, that I have to have an ethernet card. >When I hooked up with Verizon DSL a few years ago the modem they >included would theoretically function either with USB or NIC (ethernet >card). My preferance was USB as I had no NIC. > >I don't recall if the USB worked and was lousy/unreliable or if it >never worked at all but I spent $10 for a NIC. It works. When I read the instructions more closely, it says that a NIC is required for win98SE and strongly recommended for all others. There are so many problems with their Quick Start instructions, it's amazing. On page 2 under "CD Contents" it says "This CD does not contain any software for your computer". At the bottom of page 5, it says "Note: If you want to connect your computer [using USB], you must use the enclosed CD to install software drivers" After CD Contents, there are three steps listed: Step 1: Install filters page 2 Step 2: Install modem page 4 Step 3: Account setup page 6 Finally at the very end, the bottom of page 7, it says, at the very end of the FAQ: I plan to connect via USB. Should I connect the hardware first? No, it says, insert the CD first. The CD contains drivers that are needed for the USB option to work properly. Connecting the hardware first may cause your computer to use a USB driver that does not commicate correctly with the modem or router. Why didn't it say that before someone installs the filters, modems and connects in order to do account setup? And it doesn't say how to undo the driver problem that the bad instructions helped create. Oh, yeah, and then the Spanish starts, also for 7 pages, but then there is more English hidden after that on page 15, where it says you can't use USB after all if you have win98. It never said that before. And that ethernet is strongly recommended for all others. Even though they didn't warn me when I signed up several days ago that I needed an ethernet card. I could have had one by now. And nowhere does it say whether to run the phone line to the DSL modem through the surge suppressor first. When I called (for other reasons) she didn't know anything about a surge suppressor. So I said, What if the lightning ruins the modem? She said that the hardware was guaranteed, and then added "for one year". And yet the front cover says "Just 3 steps....That's all there is to it." If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Guest Jeff Richards Posted September 10, 2007 Posted September 10, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? The older it is the more likely that Windows 98 will recognise it. What's the manufacturer and model? If there really isn't anything available for that particular card, then the chance is it's an exact copy of some other card. What speed is your internet connection? Unless you are planning on some other networking, you don't need anything faster than what your connection to the 'net needs. -- Jeff Richards MS MVP (Windows - Shell/User) "mm" <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:0fi8e3h7q65q1hibltsmuhgejf86foo8va@4ax.com... > On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 09:11:36 +1000, "Jeff Richards" > <JRichards@msn.com.au> wrote: > >>You probably could use USB. See, for instance: >>http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-F5D5050-Networking-Ethernet-Adaptor/dp/B000062R4P >> >>However, if you have W98 (not W98SE) then USB can be problematic. But >>since >>you already have a network card, why bother. > > I should have said that I have SE. Sorry. I should know better. >> >>You should try installing the card you have - likely W98 will find generic >>drivers for it. If not, once you know the make and model number, it >>should >>be easy to find the required drivers on the 'net. > > Well, I looked another place haven't found my card yet, and it's at > least 5 years old by now, maybe 10. Will that be another bottleneck? > > They're selling 10/100/1000 Mbps cards now, and also at least on Ebay > 10/100/ Mbps cards. > > Do I need the faster one for low-speed DSL (I forget the actual > speed.) > > And shouldn't I buy the faster one anyhow? > > If you are inclined to email me > for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Guest dadiOH Posted September 10, 2007 Posted September 10, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? mm wrote: > Oh, yeah, and then the Spanish starts, also for 7 pages, but then > there is more English hidden after that on page 15, where it says > you can't use USB after all if you have win98. It never said that > before. And that ethernet is strongly recommended for all others. > > Even though they didn't warn me when I signed up several days ago > that I needed an ethernet card. I could have had one by now. Just out of curiosity, is there a jack on the modem that says USB? -- dadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Guest mm Posted September 10, 2007 Posted September 10, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:48:53 -0400, "dadiOH" <dadiOH@guesswhere.com> wrote: >mm wrote: > >> Oh, yeah, and then the Spanish starts, also for 7 pages, but then >> there is more English hidden after that on page 15, where it says >> you can't use USB after all if you have win98. It never said that >> before. And that ethernet is strongly recommended for all others. >> >> Even though they didn't warn me when I signed up several days ago >> that I needed an ethernet card. I could have had one by now. > >Just out of curiosity, is there a jack on the modem that says USB? Yeah, there is. And it comes with a USB cord in the modem box too. If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Guest dadiOH Posted September 10, 2007 Posted September 10, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? mm wrote: > On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:48:53 -0400, "dadiOH" <dadiOH@guesswhere.com> > wrote: > >> mm wrote: >> >>> Oh, yeah, and then the Spanish starts, also for 7 pages, but then >>> there is more English hidden after that on page 15, where it says >>> you can't use USB after all if you have win98. It never said that >>> before. And that ethernet is strongly recommended for all others. >>> >>> Even though they didn't warn me when I signed up several days ago >>> that I needed an ethernet card. I could have had one by now. >> >> Just out of curiosity, is there a jack on the modem that says USB? > > Yeah, there is. And it comes with a USB cord in the modem box too. Then my supposition is that there are also USB drivers on the CD (not hard to check) but they were having problems with Win98 users trying to use USB so they stuck in the "use NIC card" admonition to save themselves grief. I agree with them. -- dadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Guest w_tom Posted September 10, 2007 Posted September 10, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Sep 10, 11:39 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote: > On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:48:53 -0400, "dadiOH" <dad...@guesswhere.com> > wrote: > >Just out of curiosity, is there a jack on the modem that says USB? > > Yeah, there is. And it comes with a USB cord in the modem box too. USB for Windows 98 was rather kludgy and does not support USB 2.0. That DSL modem probably requires USB 2.0 since USB 1 is only limited to data transfers from things like floppy disks and keyboards. The phone line already has a 'whole house' protector installed for free. Earthing defines the protection. A protector adjacent to the DSL modem may simply earth surges through the electronics (has no dedicated earthing wire) and could adversely impact DSL signals. If you are worried about surges, then you need the tens of times cheaper solution that even the telco uses in their own facilities - a 'whole house' protector at the AC electric box. For Windows 98, the Ethernet card (NIC) is the only viable solution. Reasons why would be obvious to those with sufficient technical knowledge to understand Windows 98, USB, and how DSL works. Simply plug the NIC into computer and start computer. NIC installation should be obvious and simple. Then learn what the lights are reporting on DSL modem to better learn what you have AND to have information sufficient for quick failure resolutions.
Guest bud-- Posted September 11, 2007 Posted September 11, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Sep 10, 12:25 pm, w_tom <w_t...@usa.net> wrote: > On Sep 10, 11:39 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote: > > The phone line already has a 'whole house' protector installed for > free. Earthing defines the protection. A protector adjacent to the > DSL modem may simply earth surges through the electronics (has no > dedicated earthing wire) and could adversely impact DSL signals. If > you are worried about surges, then you need the tens of times cheaper > solution that even the telco uses in their own facilities - a 'whole > house' protector at the AC electric box. w_ can't figure out how plug-in suppressors work. For accurate information on surges and surge suppression read a guide from the IEEE at: http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf Or a simpler guide from the NIST at: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf mm is correct that both power and signal wires for protected equipment need to run through the plug-in suppressor. And all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same suppressor. -- bud--
Guest mm Posted September 11, 2007 Posted September 11, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:08:05 -0700, bud-- <budnews@isp.com> wrote: >On Sep 10, 12:25 pm, w_tom <w_t...@usa.net> wrote: >> On Sep 10, 11:39 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote: >> >> The phone line already has a 'whole house' protector installed for >> free. Are you sure? Then all these phone line surge suppressors are just a waste of money? >Earthing defines the protection. But my house is no better than most, and afaik everyone is urged to run the phone line, to a modem at least, through a surge suppressor (not just the AC). I think I lost a modem once before I started doing this for the modem. But now both the UPS and the AC power distribution box that sits underneath the monitor have a telephone line surge suppressors built in and I'm using one of them. >> A protector adjacent to the >> DSL modem may simply earth surges through the electronics (has no >> dedicated earthing wire) and could adversely impact DSL signals. If That would be bad. But what do cautious people do? It would be worth some speed loss, depending on how much, to protect the dsl modem, especailly after that year's guarantee has run out. But even if guaranteed, who wants to wait until they send me another one? I'll have to keep my dial-up modem nearby for when the dsl modem is fried. >> you are worried about surges, then you need the tens of times cheaper >> solution that even the telco uses in their own facilities - a 'whole >> house' protector at the AC electric box. AC electric box? For the AC? I've read about that on alt.home.repair and they are not so cheap. But my DSL modem is going to plug into the UPS which has AC surge suppression. >w_ can't figure out how plug-in suppressors work. > >For accurate information on surges and surge suppression read a guide >from the IEEE at: >http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf >Or a simpler guide from the NIST at: >http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf > >mm is correct that both power and signal wires for protected equipment >need to run through the plug-in suppressor. And all interconnected >equipment needs to be connected to the same suppressor. So that's another flaw in the instructions that come in the Verizon DSL manual and CD, because nothing is mentioned about surge suppressoin. And the customer service woman sounded like she had never heard of it. The modem is extermal to the PC. Does that keep the surge from going past the modem, or past the NIC card, into the computer mobo? If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Guest mm Posted September 11, 2007 Posted September 11, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:57:08 +1000, "Jeff Richards" <JRichards@msn.com.au> wrote: >The older it is the more likely that Windows 98 will recognise it. > >What's the manufacturer and model? If there really isn't anything >available for that particular card, then the chance is it's an exact copy of >some other card. Good to know for next time. I couldn't find mine, so I ended up buying one from ebay. Sometimes they deliver so quickly that it's easier than gooing to the store. But now I see I bought from some low volume seller, who hasn't even emailed me to say she's shipping. With shipping it's less than 8 dollars, so she's probably not going to rush. OTOH, she's sold 400 things and has a 100% rating, so maybe it will come tomorrow. I should have noted this before I bid; "Will usually ship within 4 business days of receiving cleared payment." Ooops. I may get impatient and buy one locally, and then when I find the one I already have, that will be 3! :) >What speed is your internet connection? Unless you are planning on some >other networking, you don't need anything faster than what your connection >to the 'net needs. 700 Kpbs, iirc. So the slower is ok. Of course now that I may have 2 or 3 nic cards, maybe I should set up another computer and netork it., But it will still be fasst enough. :) If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Guest w_tom Posted September 12, 2007 Posted September 12, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Sep 11, 5:36 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote: > On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:08:05 -0700, bud-- <budn...@isp.com> wrote: > >On Sep 10, 12:25 pm, w_tom <w_t...@usa.net> wrote: > >> On Sep 10, 11:39 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote: >>> The phone line already has a 'whole house' protector installed for >>> free. > > Are you sure? Then all these phone line surge suppressors are just a > waste of money? > >>Earthing defines the protection. > > But my house is no better than most, and afaik everyone is urged to > run the phone line, to a modem at least, through a surge suppressor > (not just the AC). > > I think I lost a modem once before I started doing this for the modem. > But now both the UPS and the AC power distribution box that sits > underneath the monitor have a telephone line surge suppressors built > in and I'm using one of them. You have posted a popular urban myth. Who urges running a wire through a protector? Myth purveyors or science? Science well proven in the 1930s will be discussed. Appreciate how a modem is more often damaged. Surge enters on wires highest on utility poles. That is AC electric. A surge must first form an electrical current through everything in that path to earth ground. Electricity does not flow like an ocean wave. Current flows through everything simultaneously. The path: incoming on AC electric. Into computer motherboard (made easier when a protector is adjacent to that computer). Out computer via modem. To earth ground on phone line. Why earth via the phone line? That phone line has an earthed 'whole house' protector. Protector connects phone line to earth ground during a surge. Surge has found a path to earth. Later something in that electrical path is destroyed. Weakest point in that path is often on telephone line side of a modem. To have damage, the surge (electricity) must first have both an incoming and outgoing path through electronics. An incoming path and no outgoing path means no current and no surge damage. Many assume surges enter like waves on a beach. Many assume a surge must have entered on phone line because modem damage was on phone line side. IOW they ignore what was even taught in primary school science. If a current exists, the current is flowing simultaneously - both on the incoming side and outgoing side of that modem. Which side suffers damage? Which side has a weakest component in that connection? Will a protector stop what three miles of sky could not? That is what they claim when a wire connects *through* a protector. Reality. Nothing but a direct connection is between that incoming and outgoing wire. Test it with a meter. It is a direct connection from the incoming and outgoing wire jacks. Where is the protection? That protector does not sit between your DSL modem and phone line absorbing or stopping surges. That protector component connects like it was another telephone on the phone line. That protector is effective if the other side connects short to earth ground. Worse, they can charge excessively because so many *believe* myths rather than learn the science. Take a $3 power strip. Add some $0.10 parts. Sell it for $25 or $100. With profit margins that excessive, then more important is to have Bud promoting those myths. They cannot afford to have you learn about earthing. Bud will not discuss the manufacturer's spec sheets. Why? No claim of effective protection from each type of surge. Why do they forget to provide protection numbers? A plug-in protector is being promoted on myths and half truths - with massive profits. Massive profits and no numerical protection specs. That is effective protection? Where does that telephone line protector discuss earth ground? It does not. Where does that telephone line plug-in protector have a dedicated earthing wire? Another indicator of ineffective protection. No earthing wire? No discussion of earthing? Both identify ineffective protectors. Why does your telco not use plug-in protectors inside facilities that can never suffer damage? Plug-in protectors have a history of contributing to electronics damage. Telco needs protection that works AND that costs tens of times (maybe 100 times) less money. Telco uses the same type protector that is also installed inside your NID - for free. But that same protector will be even better inside the telco switching computer building - the CO. Why? Telco installs a massively superior earth ground in that building. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. To make that protector even better, telco increases distance between protector and electronics. Separation may be as much as 50 meters. Separation between protector and electronics means even better protection. Where is a plug-in protector? Only one or two meters away? Just another reason why plug-in protectors are ineffective. That earth ground must meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements. Does your earthing even meet 1990 code? Responsible manufacturers such as Siemens, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Leviton, Square D and GE make a 'whole house' protector for AC electric that has a dedicated earthing wire. Protector that costs about $1 per protected appliance. How much for a plug-in protector that does not even claim (in numeric specs) to protect from the typically destructive type of surge? Oh. It protects from one type of surge. Therefore it protects from all types of surges? No earth ground wire on that plug-in protector (or UPS) does what? Where does it divert the surge energy? Where is the surge dissipated? Where is the 'less than 10 foot' earthing connection? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Myth purveyors will avoid all discussion about earthing to promote ineffective plug-in protectors. View manufacturer specs for your UPS. Where does it list protection for each type of surge? Why no claim? Notice the missing earthing wire.
Guest w_tom Posted September 12, 2007 Posted September 12, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Sep 11, 5:36 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote: > The modem is extermal to the PC. Does that keep the surge from going > past the modem, or past the NIC card, into the computer mobo? Do you really believe a protector will stop or absorb what three miles of sky could not stop? Effective protectors don't stop or absorb anything. Effective protectors shunt / divert / connect / clamp / bond that surge to earth. An earthed surge has no reason to find earth ground, destructively, via household appliances. Only myths claim to block or absorb surges. Effective protection even in the 1930s shunted / diverted surges to earth ground ... which is why the protector is only as effective as its earthing connection. Only myth purveyors claim to stop surges; completely ignore earthing. Profits are too high to be honest.
Guest mm Posted September 12, 2007 Posted September 12, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:24:41 -0700, w_tom <w_tom1@usa.net> wrote: >On Sep 11, 5:36 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote: >> The modem is extermal to the PC. Does that keep the surge from going >> past the modem, or past the NIC card, into the computer mobo? > > Do you really believe a protector will stop or absorb what three >miles of sky could not stop? Well of course none of the surge suppressors can stop the actual lightning bolt, which can take a convoluted path, even on occasion going through people who are in a house. Surge suppressors are meant to suppress voltage spikes that are induced in conductors that are near the lightning. These spikes occur in a wide range of voltages, and suppressors can stop or bypass many of them. One way to protect equipment connected to a phone line would be with one of the semiconductors (I forget the name) that have high resistance with normal voltages (whatever is normal for device as normally used), and much lower resistance when voltage gets much higher. This could be used to short the tip and ring of a phone line, sending any spike back to the phone company, where they have either better surge grounding, higher quality components, or where they will replace any parts that get ruined. The details of how many lightning strikes create surges and spikes in the ranges that can be stopped by suppressors of various cost and quality is far beyond my ability to learn, or to remember, if I had learned them. And whether I should use a surpressor on this DSL line, I don't know for certain. But I don't believe that spikes are a myth, or that they can't be surprressed. > Effective protectors don't stop or >absorb anything. Effective protectors shunt / divert / connect / >clamp / bond that surge to earth. An earthed surge has no reason to >find earth ground, destructively, via household appliances. > > Only myths claim to block or absorb surges. Effective protection >even in the 1930s shunted / diverted surges to earth ground ... which >is why the protector is only as effective as its earthing connection. > > Only myth purveyors claim to stop surges; completely ignore >earthing. Profits are too high to be honest. If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
Guest w_tom Posted September 12, 2007 Posted September 12, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? A destructive surge seeks earth ground. If your semiconductor protector shorts tip to ring, then no current flows through that protector. Numbers will be provided to demonstrate that reality. Worse, that fact would have been completely obvious with grasp of some basic electrical concepts. Real world protectors don't connect tip to ring. But protectors promoted by junk science to the naive make that tip/ring connection. The word scam applies... Voltage (before a surge) between earth and ring is maybe 50 volts. Voltage between tip and ring is maybe 50 volts. Let's say a surge arrives. Voltage between tip and ring remains at 50 volts. But voltage between earth and ring is now 2050 volts. Voltage tip to earth is now 2000 volts. What has your tip to ring protector done? Nothing. Your protector saw no spike voltage while a 2000 volt surge continued destructively into a DSL modem. Your protector conducted no current; provided no protection. A typically destructive 2000 volts spike was completely ignored by your tip to ring protector. That tip to ring protector is classic of protectors promoted by urban myths in retail stores. Do surges get conducted back to the CO: "sending any spike back to the phone company, where they have either better surge grounding, higher quality components"? Do you just make this stuff up? That is absurd; but typical of science promoted by retail store salesman. Please learn basic electrical concepts. Please learn about wire impedance. Please learn why previous posts defined a 'less than 10 foot' earthing wire. If an earthing wire must be so short, then how will "sending any spike back to the phone company, where they have either better surge grounding" accomplish anything? The spike will not travel 10,000 feet back to the CO. Did you grasp why an earthing wire must be 'less than 10 feet', why no sharp bends, why not inside metallic conduit, etc? These reasons should be obvious with electrical knowledge. How can you know what a protector does when you don't even comprehend basic electrical concepts. Please learn how telephone surge protectors are constructed. Effective telco protector makes a connection to earth; not tip to ring. Effective protectors were even standard even in the 1950s: http://www.inwap.com/inwap/chez/Phoneline.jpg Even that 1950s protector is not wired as mm described - tip to ring. 60 years later and mm still does not know why that telco 'installed for free' protector is so effective - and not wired tip to ring. Please learn why earthing is so critical before claiming a surge will be conducted back to the CO - one of the most absurd ideas posted. Your tip to ring protector completely ignored a 1200 volts surge. Effective protectors, instead, connect each wire to earth ground as even shown in that 1950 protector picture. Why do we install surge protectors? So that direct lightning strikes do not cause damage. Protectors installed to earth direct lightning strikes make trivial induced surges irrelevant. . But when promoting ineffective plug-in protectors, better is to deny direct lightning protection exists. A protector that is destroyed by a surge is not just undersized and grossly overpriced (extremely profitable). Undersized protectors will also have the naive recommending those scam protectors. Then when damage occurs, the naive will proclaim nothing can protect from direct strikes. Using your logic, then your telco (that suffers maybe 100 surges during each thunderstorm) must also halt telephone service for four days annually to replace their surge damaged switching computer. Why does your telco never shutdown for thunderstorms? Because surge protection is installed for direct lightning strikes; not for induced surges from nearby strikes. Look at how obvious that induce surge protection is. If protectors were only for induced surges, then your entire town suffers many days every year without phone service. Please stop letting those scam artists push so many urban myths. What completely earths an induced surge on a 100+ foot long antenna? One NE-2 glow light. An induced surge is so *massive* that an NE-2 glow lamp conducting milliamps earths an induced surge from nearby lightning. Once we apply numbers (milliamps), then that massive induced surge becomes something trivial or completely irrelevant. Demonstrated is why junk science promotes protectors without numbers. We install protectors to earth direct lightning strikes. Protector must remain functional after that strike. Nothing new here. It was standard technology even in the 1930s. Effective protectors earth a direct strike AND remain functional. The effective protector earths surges so that a human never even knows the surge exists. What happens when an effective protector earths surges? The naive does not see damage; therefore does not recommend the protector. So many know only from what they see rather than learn how electricity works. The naive therefore would never know which protector is effective. The naive recommend grossly undersized and overpriced protectors only because the ineffective protector fails - smokes. They rationalize that it must work because it was destroyed. Classic junk science reasoning. "Surge suppressors are meant to" connect surges to earth ground so that direct lightning strikes cause no damage. Earthing is how Ben Franklin eliminated lightning damage to church steeples in 1752. Earthing is why commercial broadcasting stations suffer direct lightning strikes routinely without damage. There is no way to be nice about contemptuous junk science myths that ignore earthing. Instead we learn from those who learned the science and then did the work for generations: http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html > Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning > 30 years, that you can design a system that will handle *direct > lightning strikes* on a routine basis. It takes some planning and > careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it overly expensive. At > WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning strikes nearly > every time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime from such > strikes is almost non-existant. The last time we went down from > a strike, it was due to a strike on the power company's lines > knocking *them* out, ... > Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously to > educate amateurs that you *can* avoid damage from direct strikes. > The belief that there's no protection from direct strike damage is > *myth*. ... > The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly simple, > and surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you *must* have a > single point ground system that eliminates all ground loops. And > you must present a low *impedance* path for the energy to go. > That's most generally a low *inductance* path rather than just a > low ohm DC path. What is that telephone line? A long wire antenna connected to a DSL modem. Same techniques that eliminate damage in commercial broadcasting stations also mean no damage to a DSL modem. What do the educated do? Do they learn of "surges and spikes in the ranges that can be stopped by suppressors of various cost and quality [that] is far beyond my ability to learn, or to remember". Funny. Why do you confuse scam products with simple 'whole house' protectors that have that dedicated earthing wire? There is no wide range of products. There is a $10 protector sold in the grocery store. An equivalent protector with fancy paint sells for $150 in Circuit City. Many fashions clothing the same protector. If you are confused, then you have spent too much time listening to urban myths promoted by retail store salesman or are entranced by the latest fashion in surge protectors. Basic 'whole house' protectors - more than sufficient - are from GE, Cutler-Hammer, Siemens, Leviton, Square D, Intermatic and other well known responsible manufacturers. The effective protector has an earthing wire for that 'less than 10 foot' earthing connection - and no fashion sense. You don't need a protector on your DSL line. Instead, confirm the telco installed protector is properly earthed. You provided the earthing. If your earthing is not sufficient, then a superior 'telco supplied' protector will not be effective. But again, why do you keep ignoring this fundamental fact. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Why do we repeatedly reference facts such as 'less than 10 feet'? Because earthing defines protection. Why did you even fall for the junk science promoting a 'tip to ring' protector? Again, because you keep ignoring what provides protection: earth ground. Earth ground. Earth ground. Stop ignoring the expression. Earth ground, Earth ground. There is no 'magic box' solution. The magic box is not protection. Earth ground. Earth ground. Earth ground is the protection. Please learn the simple concept. Stop assuming 'magic boxes' provide protection. Stop describing protectors that stop surges. What wire typically carries 'DSL modem' destructive surges into the building? AC electric. Which wires typically do not have that necessary earthing? AC electric. Which utility needs you to earth a 'whole house' protector (protection just like your telco does in their COs)? AC electric. Provided again is where your solutions lie. Proper earthing of the telco installed protector. Proper earthing of an AC electric 'whole house' protector. No magic box solutions exist for the DSL modem wire. Any protector without that earthing wire violates what an effective protector must accomplish. So what is that? Maybe 26 different reasons how an effective protector works, why it works, why earthing defined protection, why surges are not "stopped by suppressors of various cost and quality" , and why a DSL protector is wasted money. How many reasons do you need? Which one of us was doing this stuff generations ago? Last paragraph again defines what is required to protect a DSL modem. On Sep 11, 11:40 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote: >> Do you really believe a protector will stop or absorb what three >> miles of sky could not stop? > > Well of course none of the surge suppressors can stop the actual > lightning bolt, which can take a convoluted path, even on occasion > going through people who are in a house. > > Surge suppressors are meant to suppress voltage spikes that are > induced in conductors that are near the lightning. These spikes > occur in a wide range of voltages, and suppressors can stop or bypass > many of them. > > One way to protect equipment connected to a phone line would be with > one of the semiconductors (I forget the name) that have high > resistance with normal voltages (whatever is normal for device as > normally used), and much lower resistance when voltage gets much > higher. This could be used to short the tip and ring of a phone line, > sending any spike back to the phone company, where they have either > better surge grounding, higher quality components, or where they will > replace any parts that get ruined. > > The details of how many lightning strikes create surges and spikes in > the ranges that can be stopped by suppressors of various cost and > quality is far beyond my ability to learn, or to remember, if I had > learned them. And whether I should use a surpressor on this DSL line, > I don't know for certain. > > But I don't believe that spikes are a myth, or that they can't be > surprressed.
Guest w_tom Posted September 12, 2007 Posted September 12, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Sep 11, 11:40 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote: > But I don't believe that spikes are a myth, or that they can't be > surprressed. Meanwhile, I don't see where you grasped why USB on Windows SE cannot be used with DSL. Did you understand the numbers that permit using a camera but not usnig a DSL modem on your USB?
Guest dadiOH Posted September 12, 2007 Posted September 12, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? w_tom wrote: > A protector that is destroyed > by a surge is not just undersized and grossly overpriced (extremely > profitable). As long as the overpriced price isn't more than the $30-40 range I still like them. Why? Insurance...they pay off/replace if connected stuff is damaged. Belkin has paid me more than $1000 over the last few years. Yeah, I know...better to have *real* protection rather than pseudo-protection + insurance. Thing is, electricity fries my brain even more than it used to fry my DUN modems :) -- dadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Guest bud-- Posted September 12, 2007 Posted September 12, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Sep 11, 8:20 pm, w_tom <w_t...@usa.net> wrote: > On Sep 11, 5:36 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote: > > > But my house is no better than most, and afaik everyone is urged to > > run the phone line, to a modem at least, through a surge suppressor > > (not just the AC). > > > I think I lost a modem once before I started doing this for the modem. > > But now both the UPS and the AC power distribution box that sits > > underneath the monitor have a telephone line surge suppressors built > > in and I'm using one of them. > > You have posted a popular urban myth. Who urges running a wire > through a protector? Myth purveyors or science? Who are the myth purveyors? The IEEE. The NIST. Everyone but w_. .. > > The path: incoming on AC electric. Into computer motherboard (made > easier when a protector is adjacent to that computer). Out computer > via modem. To earth ground on phone line. A surge can enter on either power or signal wires. The IEEE guide has an illustration of a surge entering on the cable service. The illustration shows how plug-in suppressors work - clamping the voltage on all wires to the common ground at the suppressor. (An electric service panel suppressor would have provided *no* protection in this case.) (IEEE guide starting pdf page 40.) All interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires need to go through the suppressor. External connections, like phone, also need to go through the suppressor (as mm said). Connecting all wiring through the suppressor prevents damaging voltages between power and signal wires. Multiport suppressors are described in both guides. > Bud will not discuss the > manufacturer's spec sheets. Why? No claim of effective protection > from each type of surge. "Each type of surge" is bullcrap from w__. Plug-in suppressors have MOVs (protection elements) connected from H-G, N-G, H-N. That is all possible combinations and all surge types. w_'s preferred service panel suppressor manufacturer SquareD does not provide specs for "each type of surge. With no valid technical arguments, w_ invents issues. > No earthing wire? No discussion of earthing? Both > identify ineffective protectors. w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection must use earthing. Thus in his view plug-in suppressors (which are not well earthed) can not possibly work. The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing (or stopping or absorbing). The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere. (Read the guide starting pdf page 40). > ... 'whole house' protector > for AC electric .... Protector that > costs about $1 per protected appliance. If you count light bulbs as appliances. > > A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. The required statement of religious belief in earthing. Everyone agrees earthing is a good idea. But the only question is whether plug-in suppressors work. Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective. Read the sources. There are 98,615,938 other web sites, including 13,843,032 by lunatics, and w_ can't find another lunatic that says plug-in suppressors are NOT effective. All you have is w_'s opinions based on his religious belief in earthing. Never explained by w_: - Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug- in suppressors? - Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest solution"? -- bud--
Guest w_tom Posted September 12, 2007 Posted September 12, 2007 Re: How to install DSL, how to install ethernet card? On Sep 12, 6:56 am, "dadiOH" <dad...@guesswhere.com> wrote: > As long as the overpriced price isn't more than the $30-40 range I > still like them. Why? Insurance...they pay off/replace if connected > stuff is damaged. Belkin has paid me more than $1000 over the last > few years. Overpriced is $25 for a power strip protector. But some will sell that same type of protector for $100. Many consumers assume expensive must be better. But the equivalent circuit is also sold for $10 in the grocery store. Read fine print associated with most warranties. For example, one states that if protectors from any other manufacturer are used, then that claim is rejected. A protector warranty contains numerous fine print exemptions. They do not intend to pay for damage. Steve Uhrig on 17 Jun 2003 in the newsgroup comp.home.automation entitled "UPS for computer and TV" > I lost the modem board in an early generation commercial high volume > fax which was 'protected' by an APC UPS. > I read the terms of their warranty, which I had saved together with the > purchase receipt, and contacted them to submit a warranty claim. I was > nice and polite and had everything documented including photos of their > product installed next to the fax. > They laughed in my face. Almost could not have been more insulting. > I wrote to the executive management of the company, copied customer > service, sent both return receipt to prove they received them, and never > got the courtesy of a reply. Ironically, a larger warranty means a less effective protector. Polyphaser, an industry benchmark, has no warranty Protectors without earthing will claim the highest warranty and leave a long list of Steve Uhrig experiences. Purchase insurance from a broker who is required by law to honor those claims. Better is to spend about $1 per appliance for protection that actually will earth surges. $1 per appliance verses $35? The less expensive solution is also the solution routinely used where damage is not acceptable. The $35 solution is not used because it can even contribute to damage of adjacent electronics.
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