Guest Blackberry Posted September 22, 2007 Posted September 22, 2007 Hi All I work in a number of schools and I'm constantly having to turn off every available power saving option in their desktops and laptops to try and remove 'PC's crashed' false alarms raised by teachers. At the mo, I use the following settings on WinXP Pro SP2 machines (desktop and laptop): Screensaver: 15 mins Turn Off Monitor: 20 mins Turn Off Hard Disks: never System Standby: never System Hibernates: never Are the above settings a bad thing? Are they costing the school money, in light of the fact that they might have 80 machines buzzing away 6 - 7 hours a day? What are the preferred settings? If the Monitor is turned off what is the standard way to get it back on? Ditto re the Hard Disks, Standby and Hibernate? Is it possible that a PC can crash frequently if left in one of the above states, ie in standby mode, for a long time? This whole area is lost on me and I want to follow a set pattern from now on. Any pointers would be appreciated. Thanks
Guest R. McCarty Posted September 22, 2007 Posted September 22, 2007 Re: What is real truth behind power saving options I don't really follow the relationship between Power Savings and the "Crashed PC" statement. You'd probably want to use Standby which is a minimal power state but allows a quick resume to a working state. Or at a minimum allow the drives to spin down at the same idle time you've set for turning off the monitor. Power savings can have problems because of drivers and the default settings XP applies to NICs and USB Root Hubs. Allowing 80 PCs to run 24-7 with only a monitor off is still a fairly large current/power draw, so I'd try and use "Standby" mode. "Blackberry" <info@NoSpamIt.com> wrote in message news:uM5n2jQ$HHA.3916@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > Hi All > > I work in a number of schools and I'm constantly having to turn off every > available power saving option in their desktops and laptops to try and > remove 'PC's crashed' false alarms raised by teachers. > > At the mo, I use the following settings on WinXP Pro SP2 machines (desktop > and laptop): > > Screensaver: 15 mins > Turn Off Monitor: 20 mins > Turn Off Hard Disks: never > System Standby: never > System Hibernates: never > > Are the above settings a bad thing? > > Are they costing the school money, in light of the fact that they might > have > 80 machines buzzing away 6 - 7 hours a day? > > What are the preferred settings? > > If the Monitor is turned off what is the standard way to get it back on? > > Ditto re the Hard Disks, Standby and Hibernate? > > Is it possible that a PC can crash frequently if left in one of the above > states, ie in standby mode, for a long time? > > This whole area is lost on me and I want to follow a set pattern from now > on. Any pointers would be appreciated. > > Thanks > >
Guest Lil' Dave Posted September 22, 2007 Posted September 22, 2007 Re: What is real truth behind power saving options "Blackberry" <info@NoSpamIt.com> wrote in message news:uM5n2jQ$HHA.3916@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > Hi All > > I work in a number of schools and I'm constantly having to turn off every > available power saving option in their desktops and laptops to try and > remove 'PC's crashed' false alarms raised by teachers. > > At the mo, I use the following settings on WinXP Pro SP2 machines (desktop > and laptop): > > Screensaver: 15 mins > Turn Off Monitor: 20 mins > Turn Off Hard Disks: never > System Standby: never > System Hibernates: never > > Are the above settings a bad thing? > > Are they costing the school money, in light of the fact that they might > have > 80 machines buzzing away 6 - 7 hours a day? > > What are the preferred settings? > > If the Monitor is turned off what is the standard way to get it back on? > > Ditto re the Hard Disks, Standby and Hibernate? > > Is it possible that a PC can crash frequently if left in one of the above > states, ie in standby mode, for a long time? > > This whole area is lost on me and I want to follow a set pattern from now > on. Any pointers would be appreciated. > > Thanks > > Well, I'm only guessing since you're inspecific about the problems posed by the teachers AND you're using power savings changes to address those problems. Further, I'm guessing said PCs won't come out of standby/hibernate mode. That is appear not operating correctly. IE - crashed. Stick with the plan, and have the teachers physically turn off the PCs when not required for network pushes as such. Dave
Guest Jeff Barnett Posted September 22, 2007 Posted September 22, 2007 Re: What is real truth behind power saving options Blackberry wrote: > Hi All > > I work in a number of schools and I'm constantly having to turn off every > available power saving option in their desktops and laptops to try and > remove 'PC's crashed' false alarms raised by teachers. > > At the mo, I use the following settings on WinXP Pro SP2 machines (desktop > and laptop): > > Screensaver: 15 mins > Turn Off Monitor: 20 mins > Turn Off Hard Disks: never > System Standby: never > System Hibernates: never > > Are the above settings a bad thing? > > Are they costing the school money, in light of the fact that they might have > 80 machines buzzing away 6 - 7 hours a day? > > What are the preferred settings? > > If the Monitor is turned off what is the standard way to get it back on? > > Ditto re the Hard Disks, Standby and Hibernate? > > Is it possible that a PC can crash frequently if left in one of the above > states, ie in standby mode, for a long time? > > This whole area is lost on me and I want to follow a set pattern from now > on. Any pointers would be appreciated. > > Thanks > I'm glad the school can afford the cost of power. Let's see how much you might save by educating the users. Let's assume the computer could be in S3 (or hibernate) sleep 18 hours per day, 365 days per year, and the watt difference is 100 Watt between sleeping and your settings. We get 18 * 365 * 100 = 584 kilo watt hours per machine per year! You have 80 machines so the total saving is almost 50 mega watt hours per year. Look at the electricity bill for rates per kilowatt hours to translate this into thousands of dollars per year. -- Jeff Barnett
Guest Robert Moir Posted September 23, 2007 Posted September 23, 2007 Re: What is real truth behind power saving options "Blackberry" <info@NoSpamIt.com> wrote in message news:uM5n2jQ$HHA.3916@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > Hi All > > I work in a number of schools and I'm constantly having to turn off every > available power saving option in their desktops and laptops to try and > remove 'PC's crashed' false alarms raised by teachers. Define "false alarm". Are you saying the teachers are not adequately trainined to deal with computers that are in power saving mode (sounds stupid to people who don't work in education, but those of us who do know that teachers probably need a training course before they can dress themselves and pour a cup of coffee into their mouths instead of their ears). Some computers, especially cheap ones or ones built on a DIY basis, have problems with sleep / hibernate support where the computer won't sleep properly or where some devices might have trouble waking up afterwards... this is a real problem. > Screensaver: 15 mins > Turn Off Monitor: 20 mins > Turn Off Hard Disks: never > System Standby: never > System Hibernates: never > > Are the above settings a bad thing? > > Are they costing the school money, in light of the fact that they might > have > 80 machines buzzing away 6 - 7 hours a day? Obviously a machine that is powered up all the time will use more energy and hence cost more to run than one which is powered off or which is in a power-saving mode that cuts the power useage by 90% or more when the machine is not in use. Jeff gave you a good way of roughly working the figures out. Only you know if the savings in power offset the cost of each support call you get about computers in power-saving mode. > What are the preferred settings? Only you can determine that. I quite like hibernate because this effectively means a computer is turned off when not in use, but has a very fast 'resume' sequence when turned on. Standby puts the computer into a "sleep" mode from which it can be awakened by pressing a key on the keyboard and/or hitting the power button. > If the Monitor is turned off what is the standard way to get it back on? This essentially sends a signal to the monitor to put it into it's own "sleep" mode. It should be awakened by the computer when the computer is started/resumed or (if the monitor is sleeping but the computer is still on) when the computer detects keyboard or mouse activity. > Ditto re the Hard Disks, Standby and Hibernate? Hard disk, same as the monitor above really. I've already explained standby vs. hibernate. > Is it possible that a PC can crash frequently if left in one of the above > states, ie in standby mode, for a long time? Assuming that everything works correctly, the mere fact that you put something into standby then wake it should _never_ cause a crash in and of itself. However, not everything works correctly in the Windows / IBM PC world. Some programs behave badly if left running while standby mode is deployed. Some software also prevents sleep mode from being activated in Windows XP because it feels that it is so important that you can't _possibly_ want to activate sleep mode while the software is running. Ditto some hardware drivers, which can have the charming effect of rendering the hardware concerned inoperative until the next reboot. read http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2007/04/16/2148139.aspx , http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2007/02/22/1742088.aspx and http://jvert.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!5B074284162A63E3!373.entry for lots of information from inside Microsoft about using power saving modes. This is why I prefer Hibernate myself, which I find to be much better behaved. But it isn't always perfect either... Sooner or later though you have to say "Well I'm going to move to throw out hardware and software that just won't work with this" because that stuff really is costing you real money. I work in an establishment with a lot more than 80 workstations and we've seen quite noticable changes in our energy bills from taking the time to get this right.
Guest FrankChin Posted September 23, 2007 Posted September 23, 2007 RE: What is real truth behind power saving options I don't have 80 machines running at school, but 4 PC's in a network at home, for mom, dad, and 2 kids. At one time, I had no power mangement set in any of the PC's. But I knew from way back when I had a dedicated Novell werver kept on 24/7. it was $25.00 electric for the month at the high NYC Con Ed rates. It's more like $30.00/month now, I checked the ectric rates and power consumption, and it costs me $1.00 per day to have a PC on for 24/7. One month, the wife was screaming at the $150/month electric bill. and I knew at once it was the PC's whcih we turn on, do some work on it, and them walk away from, fall aslseep, and don''t turn them off. Diito for the kids. It was winter time, and I knew since we don't ahve elecric heat, there's no way we run $150/month lighting up the house. I have all the PC's set that they hibernate after one hour, but they don't always do. I don't some research, and it's due to various programs and services running in the background. iI downloaded some third party software that hibernates ALL the PC's between 9:30 and 10:20 each night, regardless of what's running. That in itself saved us $50 to $60/month in power on all the PC's. "Blackberry" wrote: > Hi All > > I work in a number of schools and I'm constantly having to turn off every > available power saving option in their desktops and laptops to try and > remove 'PC's crashed' false alarms raised by teachers. > > At the mo, I use the following settings on WinXP Pro SP2 machines (desktop > and laptop): > > Screensaver: 15 mins > Turn Off Monitor: 20 mins > Turn Off Hard Disks: never > System Standby: never > System Hibernates: never > > Are the above settings a bad thing? > > Are they costing the school money, in light of the fact that they might have > 80 machines buzzing away 6 - 7 hours a day? > > What are the preferred settings? > > If the Monitor is turned off what is the standard way to get it back on? > > Ditto re the Hard Disks, Standby and Hibernate? > > Is it possible that a PC can crash frequently if left in one of the above > states, ie in standby mode, for a long time? > > This whole area is lost on me and I want to follow a set pattern from now > on. Any pointers would be appreciated. > > Thanks > > >
Guest Bob I Posted September 24, 2007 Posted September 24, 2007 Re: What is real truth behind power saving options And since in winter the heat has to come from someplace. You merely replaced the heat generated by the PC running, by purchasing more energy for your furnace. On the other hand, if you are cooling, using air conditioning, like in the summer, then you will be saving money turning them off. FrankChin wrote: > I don't have 80 machines running at school, but 4 PC's in a network at home, > for mom, dad, and 2 kids. > > At one time, I had no power mangement set in any of the PC's. But I knew > from way back when I had a dedicated Novell werver kept on 24/7. it was > $25.00 electric for the month at the high NYC Con Ed rates. It's more like > $30.00/month now, > > I checked the ectric rates and power consumption, and it costs me $1.00 per > day to have a PC on for 24/7. > > One month, the wife was screaming at the $150/month electric bill. and I > knew at once it was the PC's whcih we turn on, do some work on it, and them > walk away from, fall aslseep, and don''t turn them off. Diito for the kids. > > It was winter time, and I knew since we don't ahve elecric heat, there's no > way we run $150/month lighting up the house. > > I have all the PC's set that they hibernate after one hour, but they don't > always do. I don't some research, and it's due to various programs and > services running in the background. iI downloaded some third party software > that hibernates ALL the PC's between 9:30 and 10:20 each night, regardless of > what's running. That in itself saved us $50 to $60/month in power on all the > PC's. > > > > > "Blackberry" wrote: > > >>Hi All >> >>I work in a number of schools and I'm constantly having to turn off every >>available power saving option in their desktops and laptops to try and >>remove 'PC's crashed' false alarms raised by teachers. >> >>At the mo, I use the following settings on WinXP Pro SP2 machines (desktop >>and laptop): >> >>Screensaver: 15 mins >>Turn Off Monitor: 20 mins >>Turn Off Hard Disks: never >>System Standby: never >>System Hibernates: never >> >>Are the above settings a bad thing? >> >>Are they costing the school money, in light of the fact that they might have >>80 machines buzzing away 6 - 7 hours a day? >> >>What are the preferred settings? >> >>If the Monitor is turned off what is the standard way to get it back on? >> >>Ditto re the Hard Disks, Standby and Hibernate? >> >>Is it possible that a PC can crash frequently if left in one of the above >>states, ie in standby mode, for a long time? >> >>This whole area is lost on me and I want to follow a set pattern from now >>on. Any pointers would be appreciated. >> >>Thanks >> >> >>
Guest Unknown Posted September 24, 2007 Posted September 24, 2007 Re: What is real truth behind power saving options Furnace energy is by far cheaper than electrically produce heat. BTUs produced by todays computers is insignificant as far as air-conditioning is concerned. "Bob I" <birelan@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:OoRcP6q$HHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > And since in winter the heat has to come from someplace. You merely > replaced the heat generated by the PC running, by purchasing more energy > for your furnace. On the other hand, if you are cooling, using air > conditioning, like in the summer, then you will be saving money turning > them off. > > FrankChin wrote: > >> I don't have 80 machines running at school, but 4 PC's in a network at >> home, for mom, dad, and 2 kids. >> >> At one time, I had no power mangement set in any of the PC's. But I knew >> from way back when I had a dedicated Novell werver kept on 24/7. it was >> $25.00 electric for the month at the high NYC Con Ed rates. It's more >> like $30.00/month now, >> >> I checked the ectric rates and power consumption, and it costs me $1.00 >> per day to have a PC on for 24/7. >> >> One month, the wife was screaming at the $150/month electric bill. and I >> knew at once it was the PC's whcih we turn on, do some work on it, and >> them walk away from, fall aslseep, and don''t turn them off. Diito for >> the kids. >> >> It was winter time, and I knew since we don't ahve elecric heat, there's >> no way we run $150/month lighting up the house. >> >> I have all the PC's set that they hibernate after one hour, but they >> don't always do. I don't some research, and it's due to various programs >> and services running in the background. iI downloaded some third party >> software that hibernates ALL the PC's between 9:30 and 10:20 each night, >> regardless of what's running. That in itself saved us $50 to $60/month in >> power on all the PC's. >> >> >> >> >> "Blackberry" wrote: >> >> >>>Hi All >>> >>>I work in a number of schools and I'm constantly having to turn off every >>>available power saving option in their desktops and laptops to try and >>>remove 'PC's crashed' false alarms raised by teachers. >>> >>>At the mo, I use the following settings on WinXP Pro SP2 machines >>>(desktop and laptop): >>> >>>Screensaver: 15 mins >>>Turn Off Monitor: 20 mins >>>Turn Off Hard Disks: never >>>System Standby: never >>>System Hibernates: never >>> >>>Are the above settings a bad thing? >>> >>>Are they costing the school money, in light of the fact that they might >>>have 80 machines buzzing away 6 - 7 hours a day? >>> >>>What are the preferred settings? >>> >>>If the Monitor is turned off what is the standard way to get it back on? >>> >>>Ditto re the Hard Disks, Standby and Hibernate? >>> >>>Is it possible that a PC can crash frequently if left in one of the above >>>states, ie in standby mode, for a long time? >>> >>>This whole area is lost on me and I want to follow a set pattern from now >>>on. Any pointers would be appreciated. >>> >>>Thanks >>> >>> >>> >
Guest Bob I Posted September 24, 2007 Posted September 24, 2007 Re: What is real truth behind power saving options 1. Some folks have electric heat, the point is that you must realize that you ARE only shifting from using one to another. 2. BTU's are BTU's and ALL the watts a computer uses ARE converted to BTU's. If the computer is using watts it is generating heat, no way around it. Unknown wrote: > Furnace energy is by far cheaper than electrically produce heat. BTUs > produced by todays computers is insignificant as far as air-conditioning is > concerned. > "Bob I" <birelan@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:OoRcP6q$HHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > >>And since in winter the heat has to come from someplace. You merely >>replaced the heat generated by the PC running, by purchasing more energy >>for your furnace. On the other hand, if you are cooling, using air >>conditioning, like in the summer, then you will be saving money turning >>them off. >> >>FrankChin wrote: >> >> >>>I don't have 80 machines running at school, but 4 PC's in a network at >>>home, for mom, dad, and 2 kids. >>> >>>At one time, I had no power mangement set in any of the PC's. But I knew >>>from way back when I had a dedicated Novell werver kept on 24/7. it was >>>$25.00 electric for the month at the high NYC Con Ed rates. It's more >>>like $30.00/month now, >>> >>>I checked the ectric rates and power consumption, and it costs me $1.00 >>>per day to have a PC on for 24/7. >>> >>>One month, the wife was screaming at the $150/month electric bill. and I >>>knew at once it was the PC's whcih we turn on, do some work on it, and >>>them walk away from, fall aslseep, and don''t turn them off. Diito for >>>the kids. >>> >>>It was winter time, and I knew since we don't ahve elecric heat, there's >>>no way we run $150/month lighting up the house. >>> >>>I have all the PC's set that they hibernate after one hour, but they >>>don't always do. I don't some research, and it's due to various programs >>>and services running in the background. iI downloaded some third party >>>software that hibernates ALL the PC's between 9:30 and 10:20 each night, >>>regardless of what's running. That in itself saved us $50 to $60/month in >>>power on all the PC's. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>"Blackberry" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Hi All >>>> >>>>I work in a number of schools and I'm constantly having to turn off every >>>>available power saving option in their desktops and laptops to try and >>>>remove 'PC's crashed' false alarms raised by teachers. >>>> >>>>At the mo, I use the following settings on WinXP Pro SP2 machines >>>>(desktop and laptop): >>>> >>>>Screensaver: 15 mins >>>>Turn Off Monitor: 20 mins >>>>Turn Off Hard Disks: never >>>>System Standby: never >>>>System Hibernates: never >>>> >>>>Are the above settings a bad thing? >>>> >>>>Are they costing the school money, in light of the fact that they might >>>>have 80 machines buzzing away 6 - 7 hours a day? >>>> >>>>What are the preferred settings? >>>> >>>>If the Monitor is turned off what is the standard way to get it back on? >>>> >>>>Ditto re the Hard Disks, Standby and Hibernate? >>>> >>>>Is it possible that a PC can crash frequently if left in one of the above >>>>states, ie in standby mode, for a long time? >>>> >>>>This whole area is lost on me and I want to follow a set pattern from now >>>>on. Any pointers would be appreciated. >>>> >>>>Thanks >>>> >>>> >>>> >> > >
Guest Unknown Posted September 24, 2007 Posted September 24, 2007 Re: What is real truth behind power saving options It is so insignificant. Why not tell someone 'do not open the door to go outside because the air-conditioner is on'? Turn off a 100 watt light bulb and you'll save more air-conditioning costs than turning off the computer. Why not tell someone to turn off the furnace because the computer is on? Insignificant. "Bob I" <birelan@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:e9%23mFPs$HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > 1. Some folks have electric heat, the point is that you must realize that > you ARE only shifting from using one to another. > 2. BTU's are BTU's and ALL the watts a computer uses ARE converted to > BTU's. If the computer is using watts it is generating heat, no way around > it. > > Unknown wrote: > >> Furnace energy is by far cheaper than electrically produce heat. BTUs >> produced by todays computers is insignificant as far as air-conditioning >> is concerned. >> "Bob I" <birelan@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:OoRcP6q$HHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... >> >>>And since in winter the heat has to come from someplace. You merely >>>replaced the heat generated by the PC running, by purchasing more energy >>>for your furnace. On the other hand, if you are cooling, using air >>>conditioning, like in the summer, then you will be saving money turning >>>them off. >>> >>>FrankChin wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I don't have 80 machines running at school, but 4 PC's in a network at >>>>home, for mom, dad, and 2 kids. >>>> >>>>At one time, I had no power mangement set in any of the PC's. But I knew >>>>from way back when I had a dedicated Novell werver kept on 24/7. it was >>>>$25.00 electric for the month at the high NYC Con Ed rates. It's more >>>>like $30.00/month now, >>>> >>>>I checked the ectric rates and power consumption, and it costs me $1.00 >>>>per day to have a PC on for 24/7. >>>> >>>>One month, the wife was screaming at the $150/month electric bill. and I >>>>knew at once it was the PC's whcih we turn on, do some work on it, and >>>>them walk away from, fall aslseep, and don''t turn them off. Diito for >>>>the kids. >>>> >>>>It was winter time, and I knew since we don't ahve elecric heat, there's >>>>no way we run $150/month lighting up the house. >>>> >>>>I have all the PC's set that they hibernate after one hour, but they >>>>don't always do. I don't some research, and it's due to various programs >>>>and services running in the background. iI downloaded some third party >>>>software that hibernates ALL the PC's between 9:30 and 10:20 each night, >>>>regardless of what's running. That in itself saved us $50 to $60/month >>>>in power on all the PC's. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>"Blackberry" wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Hi All >>>>> >>>>>I work in a number of schools and I'm constantly having to turn off >>>>>every available power saving option in their desktops and laptops to >>>>>try and remove 'PC's crashed' false alarms raised by teachers. >>>>> >>>>>At the mo, I use the following settings on WinXP Pro SP2 machines >>>>>(desktop and laptop): >>>>> >>>>>Screensaver: 15 mins >>>>>Turn Off Monitor: 20 mins >>>>>Turn Off Hard Disks: never >>>>>System Standby: never >>>>>System Hibernates: never >>>>> >>>>>Are the above settings a bad thing? >>>>> >>>>>Are they costing the school money, in light of the fact that they might >>>>>have 80 machines buzzing away 6 - 7 hours a day? >>>>> >>>>>What are the preferred settings? >>>>> >>>>>If the Monitor is turned off what is the standard way to get it back >>>>>on? >>>>> >>>>>Ditto re the Hard Disks, Standby and Hibernate? >>>>> >>>>>Is it possible that a PC can crash frequently if left in one of the >>>>>above states, ie in standby mode, for a long time? >>>>> >>>>>This whole area is lost on me and I want to follow a set pattern from >>>>>now on. Any pointers would be appreciated. >>>>> >>>>>Thanks >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> >> >
Guest Swifty Posted September 24, 2007 Posted September 24, 2007 Re: What is real truth behind power saving options Unknown wrote: > It is so insignificant. This attitude has a name. It is called "The disaster of the commons". The reasoning goes like this: 1. The difference I will make is negligible. 2. Therefore I won't make a difference. 3. Then 50 billion people make the same "no difference", and the difference that they don't make is equivalent to a few dozen power stations polluting the planet. -- Steve Swift http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html http://www.ringers.org.uk
Guest John John Posted September 24, 2007 Posted September 24, 2007 Re: What is real truth behind power saving options Swifty wrote: > Unknown wrote: > >> It is so insignificant. > > > This attitude has a name. It is called "The disaster of the commons". > The reasoning goes like this: > > 1. The difference I will make is negligible. > 2. Therefore I won't make a difference. > 3. Then 50 billion people make the same "no difference", and the > difference that they don't make is equivalent to a few dozen > power stations polluting the planet. I agree with you, every person can and does make a difference, but there is nowheres near 50 billion people on Earth! John
Guest Unknown Posted September 24, 2007 Posted September 24, 2007 Re: What is real truth behind power saving options Go back and read the posts. "Swifty" <Steve.J.Swift@gmail.com> wrote in message news:e8QysXt$HHA.4200@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > Unknown wrote: >> It is so insignificant. > > This attitude has a name. It is called "The disaster of the commons". The > reasoning goes like this: > > 1. The difference I will make is negligible. > 2. Therefore I won't make a difference. > 3. Then 50 billion people make the same "no difference", and the > difference that they don't make is equivalent to a few dozen > power stations polluting the planet. > > -- > Steve Swift > http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html > http://www.ringers.org.uk
Recommended Posts