Guest 98 Guy Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits > | something to run at a directory hierarcy that removes all > | long filenames for the files that not have more than 8+3 chars > | (where only difference between the dos filename and the > | long FileName is small and BIG letters) What is the issue with file names with lower-case vs upper-case letters?
Guest teebo Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits >> | something to run at a directory hierarcy that removes all >> | long filenames for the files that not have more than 8+3 chars >> | (where only difference between the dos filename and the >> | long FileName is small and BIG letters) > > What is the issue with file names with lower-case vs upper-case > letters? normal FAT-filenames (8+3 "dosfilenames") is allways saved in uppercase only. (even though windows filemanager shows them as lowercase with the first letter Uppercase) So if you write any letter in the filename as lowercase when you make the file, windows have to create a long-file-name too for it so it can save the correct case somewhere. Most people don't care about the casing of the filename though (especially since windows shows all-uppercase filnames as lowercase anyway...) so if you have lot of files that is not longer than 8+3 then you can save space in your directories if you could run something that killed the long-file-name for just those files. (I guess I could do that with some normal multirename-tool and set it to rename all files with 8+3 chars or shorter, that don't have any unicode or other special chars not allowed in dos, in a certain directory with subdirectories, to be all UPPERCASE. But that will probably be a whole bunch of clicks to make it do that, and I'm not sure it will actually remove the long-file-name, maybe only make it upperase too?) What you will loose is that filnames like "AbiSuite" will be shown as "Abisuite" but I can live with that... :-) (but the orginal poster had longer filenames so he have no use for this anyway)
Guest Franc Zabkar Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 03:22:10 GMT, teebo <no@mail.no> put finger to keyboard and composed: >>> | something to run at a directory hierarcy that removes all >>> | long filenames for the files that not have more than 8+3 chars >>> | (where only difference between the dos filename and the >>> | long FileName is small and BIG letters) >> >> What is the issue with file names with lower-case vs upper-case >> letters? > >normal FAT-filenames (8+3 "dosfilenames") is allways saved in >uppercase only. (even though windows filemanager shows them as >lowercase with the first letter Uppercase) To force Explorer to "allow all uppercase names", go to View -> Folder Options -> View and check the appropriate box. >So if you write any letter in the filename as lowercase when you >make the file, windows have to create a long-file-name too for it so >it can save the correct case somewhere. > >Most people don't care about the casing of the filename though >(especially since windows shows all-uppercase filnames as lowercase >anyway...) so if you have lot of files that is not longer than >8+3 then you can save space in your directories if you could >run something that killed the long-file-name for just those files. >(I guess I could do that with some normal multirename-tool and set it >to rename all files with 8+3 chars or shorter, that don't have any >unicode or other special chars not allowed in dos, in a certain >directory with subdirectories, to be all UPPERCASE. But that will probably >be a whole bunch of clicks to make it do that, and I'm not sure it will >actually remove the long-file-name, maybe only make it upperase too?) Yes, that's what happens. You need to make a copy instead. C:\WIN98SE>echo blah > a:\MiXdCaSe.TxT C:\WIN98SE>ren a:\MiXdCaSe.TxT MIXDCASE.TXT C:\WIN98SE>copy a:\MIXDCASE.TXT a:\UPPRCASE.TXT C:\WIN98SE>debug -L 100 0 13 1 -D 100 100 41 4D 00 49 00 58 00 44-00 43 00 0F 00 0D 41 00 AM.I.X.D.C....A. 110 53 00 45 00 2E 00 54 00-58 00 00 00 54 00 00 00 S.E...T.X...T... 120 4D 49 58 44 43 41 53 45-54 58 54 20 00 3D C8 7D MIXDCASETXT .=.} 130 5D 37 5D 37 00 00 98 7E-5D 37 02 00 07 00 00 00 ]7]7...~]7...... 140 55 50 50 52 43 41 53 45-54 58 54 20 00 21 9D 7E UPPRCASETXT .!.~ 150 5D 37 5D 37 00 00 98 7E-5D 37 03 00 07 00 00 00 ]7]7...~]7...... >What you will loose is that filnames like "AbiSuite" will be >shown as "Abisuite" but I can live with that... :-) > >(but the orginal poster had longer filenames so he have >no use for this anyway) - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Guest John John Posted October 30, 2007 Posted October 30, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits PCR wrote: > 98 Guy wrote: > |> | something to run at a directory hierarcy that removes all > |> | long filenames for the files that not have more than 8+3 chars > |> | (where only difference between the dos filename and the > |> | long FileName is small and BIG letters) > | > | What is the issue with file names with lower-case vs upper-case > | letters? > > As teebo may have said, I think someone may have wanted to get a maximum > number of files into one directory. To do that, one must eliminate LFNs > (Long File Names). In Win98, a LFN is created for a file that has > mixed-case letters-- even if there is no other reason to do so (I do > believe). http://support.microsoft.com/kb/161982 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/130598 John
Guest PCR Posted October 30, 2007 Posted October 30, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits 98 Guy wrote: |> | something to run at a directory hierarcy that removes all |> | long filenames for the files that not have more than 8+3 chars |> | (where only difference between the dos filename and the |> | long FileName is small and BIG letters) | | What is the issue with file names with lower-case vs upper-case | letters? As teebo may have said, I think someone may have wanted to get a maximum number of files into one directory. To do that, one must eliminate LFNs (Long File Names). In Win98, a LFN is created for a file that has mixed-case letters-- even if there is no other reason to do so (I do believe). -- Thanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, Should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net
Guest PCR Posted October 30, 2007 Posted October 30, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits John John wrote: | PCR wrote: | |> 98 Guy wrote: |> |> | something to run at a directory hierarcy that removes all |> |> | long filenames for the files that not have more than 8+3 chars |> |> | (where only difference between the dos filename and the |> |> | long FileName is small and BIG letters) |> | |> | What is the issue with file names with lower-case vs upper-case |> | letters? |> |> As teebo may have said, I think someone may have wanted to get a |> maximum number of files into one directory. To do that, one must |> eliminate LFNs (Long File Names). In Win98, a LFN is created for a |> file that has mixed-case letters-- even if there is no other reason |> to do so (I do believe). | | | http://support.microsoft.com/kb/161982 | http://support.microsoft.com/kb/130598 Those articles are a good find, especially the first which says... .....Quote 161982............ Windows 95/98/Me and Windows NT/2000/XP behave differently because of the way the two platforms store mixed-case short (8.3) filenames. Windows NT/2000/XP stores each mixed-case short filename in a single directory entry with its case preserved. Windows 95/98/Me, however, creates two directory entries for mixed-case short filenames: one entry is for the 8.3 name in all upper-case (as MS-DOS stores filenames); the second is for a long filename entry that stores the filename in mixed-case. Although Windows 95/98/Me stores mixed-case short filenames with two directory entries, it stores all upper-case short filenames in a single directory entry just as MS-DOS does. .....EOQ.......................... I THINK it very nicely confirms what I THINK I've been saying all along about SFNs in Win98! Although at first I thought Zabcar had proved XP would also build a LFN when only mixed-case letters were the reason for it... news:nudrh3pikoih509oou62as0i30ka8kgase@4ax.com ....Quote............... OK, I now have an XP box for testing. I used Notepad to save a text file as ... ....snip... Mix_CaSe.TxT ....snip... XP Explorer displays the files exactly as saved, as does a Dir from a CMD window. However, on a W98 box the filenames are displayed as ... ....snip... Mix_CaSe.TxT ....snip... Debug shows the following directory structure: ....snip... 240 E5 4D 00 69 00 78 00 5F-00 43 00 0F 00 F5 61 00 .M.i.x._.C....a. 250 53 00 65 00 2E 00 54 00-78 00 00 00 54 00 00 00 S.e...T.x...T... 260 E5 49 58 5F 43 41 53 45-54 58 54 20 00 75 CE 16 .IX_CASETXT .u.. 270 21 28 21 28 00 00 CF 16-21 28 00 00 00 00 00 00 !(!(....!(...... 280 41 4D 00 69 00 78 00 5F-00 43 00 0F 00 F5 61 00 AM.i.x._.C....a. 290 53 00 65 00 2E 00 54 00-78 00 00 00 54 00 00 00 S.e...T.x...T... 2A0 4D 49 58 5F 43 41 53 45-54 58 54 20 00 75 CE 16 MIX_CASETXT .u.. 2B0 21 28 21 28 00 00 D0 16-21 28 05 00 04 00 00 00 !(!(....!(...... ....snip... ....EOQ.................. ....I think I see now that "Mix_CaSe.TxT" isn't JUST mixed-case-- it also contains an underline (_) -- which is a special character -- & that's what caused the LFN to generate, going by the 2nd article you posted: "To create a file name that will be displayed in all uppercase letters, include an extended character (such as a comma or space) in the filename." Thanks! | John -- Thanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, Should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net
Guest Franc Zabkar Posted October 30, 2007 Posted October 30, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:38:42 GMT, teebo <no@mail.no> put finger to keyboard and composed: >> I performed a series of serial file generations to see how many files >> could be created in a subdirectory while changing the length of the >> file name. >> >> 6.0 - 65,533 >> 6.3 - 32,767 > >strange that it starts to use LFN-names when you add extension to >the filenames? are you sure you didn't got lowercase in the >fileextensions somehow? It appears that LFNs are created (in Win9X) unless both the name and extension are in uppercase 8.3 format. C:\WIN98SE\TEMP>echo blah > dummy C:\WIN98SE\TEMP>copy dummy a:\lowrcase.txt C:\WIN98SE\TEMP>copy dummy a:\UPPRCASE.TXT C:\WIN98SE\TEMP>copy dummy a:\FILENAME.ext C:\WIN98SE\TEMP>debug -L 100 0 13 1 -D 100 100 41 6C 00 6F 00 77 00 72-00 63 00 0F 00 2F 61 00 Al.o.w.r.c.../a. 110 73 00 65 00 2E 00 74 00-78 00 00 00 74 00 00 00 s.e...t.x...t... 120 4C 4F 57 52 43 41 53 45-54 58 54 20 00 62 2D 3F LOWRCASETXT .b-? 130 5E 37 5E 37 00 00 C8 3E-5E 37 02 00 07 00 00 00 ^7^7...>^7...... 140 55 50 50 52 43 41 53 45-54 58 54 20 00 B8 30 3F UPPRCASETXT ..0? 150 5E 37 5E 37 00 00 C8 3E-5E 37 03 00 07 00 00 00 ^7^7...>^7...... 160 41 46 00 49 00 4C 00 45-00 4E 00 0F 00 F6 41 00 AF.I.L.E.N....A. 170 4D 00 45 00 2E 00 65 00-78 00 00 00 74 00 00 00 M.E...e.x...t... 180 46 49 4C 45 4E 41 4D 45-45 58 54 20 00 35 34 3F FILENAMEEXT .54? 190 5E 37 5E 37 00 00 C8 3E-5E 37 04 00 07 00 00 00 ^7^7...>^7...... - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Guest Franc Zabkar Posted October 30, 2007 Posted October 30, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:00:40 -0300, John John <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> put finger to keyboard and composed: >PCR wrote: > >> 98 Guy wrote: >> |> | something to run at a directory hierarcy that removes all >> |> | long filenames for the files that not have more than 8+3 chars >> |> | (where only difference between the dos filename and the >> |> | long FileName is small and BIG letters) >> | >> | What is the issue with file names with lower-case vs upper-case >> | letters? >> >> As teebo may have said, I think someone may have wanted to get a maximum >> number of files into one directory. To do that, one must eliminate LFNs >> (Long File Names). In Win98, a LFN is created for a file that has >> mixed-case letters-- even if there is no other reason to do so (I do >> believe). Win 95/98/Me Copies Fewer Files in Root Directories than Windows NT/2000/XP >http://support.microsoft.com/kb/161982 Microsoft's article states that ... "Windows 95/98/Me and Windows NT/2000/XP behave differently because of the way the two platforms store mixed-case short (8.3) filenames. Windows NT/2000/XP stores each mixed-case short filename in a single directory entry with its case preserved. Windows 95/98/Me, however, creates two directory entries for mixed-case short filenames: one entry is for the 8.3 name in all upper-case (as MS-DOS stores filenames); the second is for a long filename entry that stores the filename in mixed-case." The above statement is misleading. Files of the type ... FILENAME.ext filename.EXT filename.ext FILENAME.EXT .... are stored by XP as a single uppercase directory entry (ie no LFN). Two bits in a reserved byte within that same directory entry indicate whether the name and/or the extension are to be displayed as uppercase or lowercase. XP understands this byte, but Win9x/DOS ignores it, which means that the latter OSes cannot preserve the filename's original case. If "mixed case" is taken to mean files of the type FiLeNaMe.ExT, then both XP and Win9x generate LFNs. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Guest Franc Zabkar Posted October 30, 2007 Posted October 30, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:35:03 -0400, "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> put finger to keyboard and composed: >...I think I see now that "Mix_CaSe.TxT" isn't JUST mixed-case-- it also >contains an underline (_) -- which is a special character -- & that's >what caused the LFN to generate, going by the 2nd article you posted: >"To create a file name that will be displayed in all uppercase letters, >include an extended character (such as a comma or space) in the >filename." I don't think the underscore is a "special" or "extended" character. I believe an extended character is any character that is not allowed in a standard 8.3 DOS file name. Unfortunately I no longer have an XP box so I'll have to leave it to others to prove you wrong. :-) BTW, is FILE0000.EXT uppercase or mixed case? Is file0000.ext lowercase or mixed case? ;-) - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Guest Tim Slattery Posted October 30, 2007 Posted October 30, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits Franc Zabkar <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote: >BTW, is FILE0000.EXT uppercase or mixed case? Upper case. You wouldn't need a LFN entry for that one. >Is file0000.ext lowercase or mixed case? ;-) I'd say lower case, but it doesn't matter. The important thing is that you'd need two directory entries for that name: one for the DOS version (FILE0000.EXT), and one for the lower-case version. -- Tim Slattery MS MVP(Shell/User) Slattery_T@bls.gov http://members.cox.net/slatteryt
Guest 98 Guy Posted October 30, 2007 Posted October 30, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits Franc Zabkar wrote: > >> 6.0 - 65,533 > >> 6.3 - 32,767 In the first case (6.0) the 6 characters of the file name were numbers. In the second case (6.3) the file name was a set of 6 numbers.txt (.txt = lower case). So win-9x (and ME?) create 2 entries for a short name (8.3) if the name has any lower case letters - the first entry being an all upper-case version, only for DOS's benefit? Yes? Is this because DOS can't handle mixed-case 8.3 names, or because MS didn't want to deal with confused user support calls along the lines of "I can see the file right there, but when I try to copy it I keep getting file-not-found !" Given a command-line oriented OS like DOS, perhaps MS felt it was best to remove case-confusion and convert all file names to upper case all the time. I'd like to see what happens when you create some mixed-case 8.3 files on a FAT-32 drive under XP and then boot the drive under DOS and do a DIR.
Guest Franc Zabkar Posted October 31, 2007 Posted October 31, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:16:20 -0400, 98 Guy <98@Guy.com> put finger to keyboard and composed: >Franc Zabkar wrote: > >> >> 6.0 - 65,533 >> >> 6.3 - 32,767 > >In the first case (6.0) the 6 characters of the file name were >numbers. In the second case (6.3) the file name was a set of 6 >numbers.txt (.txt = lower case). > >So win-9x (and ME?) create 2 entries for a short name (8.3) if the >name has any lower case letters - the first entry being an all >upper-case version, only for DOS's benefit? Yes? It appears that way. >Is this because DOS can't handle mixed-case 8.3 names, or because MS >didn't want to deal with confused user support calls along the lines >of "I can see the file right there, but when I try to copy it I keep >getting file-not-found !" I don't have too many answers, I just have results. :-) >Given a command-line oriented OS like DOS, perhaps MS felt it was best >to remove case-confusion and convert all file names to upper case all >the time. That sounds plausible. >I'd like to see what happens when you create some mixed-case 8.3 files >on a FAT-32 drive under XP and then boot the drive under DOS and do a >DIR. Sorry, I no longer have an XP machine. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Guest Franc Zabkar Posted October 31, 2007 Posted October 31, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:07:26 +1100, Franc Zabkar <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> put finger to keyboard and composed: >On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:35:03 -0400, "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> put >finger to keyboard and composed: > >>...I think I see now that "Mix_CaSe.TxT" isn't JUST mixed-case-- it also >>contains an underline (_) -- which is a special character -- & that's >>what caused the LFN to generate, going by the 2nd article you posted: >>"To create a file name that will be displayed in all uppercase letters, >>include an extended character (such as a comma or space) in the >>filename." > >I don't think the underscore is a "special" or "extended" character. I >believe an extended character is any character that is not allowed in >a standard 8.3 DOS file name. Unfortunately I no longer have an XP box >so I'll have to leave it to others to prove you wrong. :-) It appears that in Win98 the underscore is not a special character, ie no LFN is created. C:\WIN98SE>echo blah > a:\________.___ (8.3) C:\WIN98SE>debug -L 100 0 13 1 -D 100 100 5F 5F 5F 5F 5F 5F 5F 5F-5F 5F 5F 20 00 2A C6 40 ___________ .*.@ 110 5F 37 5F 37 00 00 C7 40-5F 37 02 00 07 00 00 00 _7_7...@_7...... -Q - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Guest Franc Zabkar Posted October 31, 2007 Posted October 31, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:16:20 -0400, 98 Guy <98@Guy.com> put finger to keyboard and composed: >So win-9x (and ME?) create 2 entries for a short name (8.3) if the >name has any lower case letters - the first entry being an all >upper-case version, only for DOS's benefit? Yes? > >Is this because DOS can't handle mixed-case 8.3 names, ... You may want to have a look at this old post of mine. The MS-DOS names are all lowercase, even the volume name. "MS-DOS names for Kodak camera files": http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/7bca1af3946fd88c - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Guest PCR Posted October 31, 2007 Posted October 31, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits Franc Zabkar wrote: | On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:07:26 +1100, Franc Zabkar | <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> put finger to keyboard and composed: | |>On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:35:03 -0400, "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> put |>finger to keyboard and composed: |> |>>...I think I see now that "Mix_CaSe.TxT" isn't JUST mixed-case-- it |>>also contains an underline (_) -- which is a special character -- & |>>that's what caused the LFN to generate, going by the 2nd article you |>>posted: "To create a file name that will be displayed in all |>>uppercase letters, include an extended character (such as a comma or |>>space) in the filename." |> |>I don't think the underscore is a "special" or "extended" character. I |>believe an extended character is any character that is not allowed in |>a standard 8.3 DOS file name. Unfortunately I no longer have an XP box |>so I'll have to leave it to others to prove you wrong. :-) | | It appears that in Win98 the underscore is not a special character, ie | no LFN is created. | | C:\WIN98SE>echo blah > a:\________.___ (8.3) | C:\WIN98SE>debug | -L 100 0 13 1 | -D 100 | 100 5F 5F 5F 5F 5F 5F 5F 5F-5F 5F 5F 20 00 2A C6 40 ___________ .*.@ | 110 5F 37 5F 37 00 00 C7 40-5F 37 02 00 07 00 00 00 _7_7...@_7...... | -Q I'll buy that for Win98SE. But remember your very own XP directory dump after creating "Mix_CaSe.TxT" on a floppy...?... 240 E5 4D 00 69 00 78 00 5F-00 43 00 0F 00 F5 61 00 .M.i.x._.C....a. 250 53 00 65 00 2E 00 54 00-78 00 00 00 54 00 00 00 S.e...T.x...T... 260 E5 49 58 5F 43 41 53 45-54 58 54 20 00 75 CE 16 .IX_CASETXT .u.. 270 21 28 21 28 00 00 CF 16-21 28 00 00 00 00 00 00 !(!(....!(...... 280 41 4D 00 69 00 78 00 5F-00 43 00 0F 00 F5 61 00 AM.i.x._.C....a. 290 53 00 65 00 2E 00 54 00-78 00 00 00 54 00 00 00 S.e...T.x...T... 2A0 4D 49 58 5F 43 41 53 45-54 58 54 20 00 75 CE 16 MIX_CASETXT .u.. 2B0 21 28 21 28 00 00 D0 16-21 28 05 00 04 00 00 00 !(!(....!(...... Looks to me XP found a reason to generate a LFN, despite John John's excellent article... http://support.microsoft.com/kb/161982 PRB: Win 95/98/Me Copies Fewer Files in Root Directories than Windows NT/2000/XP ....saying: "Windows NT/2000/XP stores each mixed-case short filename in a single directory entry with its case preserved." Therefore...!... (a) The article is wrong (& John John must be punished), or (b) An XP-irradiated underline (_) does qualify as a "special" or "extended" character-- & YOU must be punished! | - Franc Zabkar | -- | Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. -- Thanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, Should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net
Guest PCR Posted October 31, 2007 Posted October 31, 2007 Re: File size/Number of file limits Franc Zabkar wrote: ....snip | BTW, is FILE0000.EXT uppercase or mixed case? Is file0000.ext | lowercase or mixed case? ;-) I find myself in full agreement with Slattery on that issue! | - Franc Zabkar | -- | Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. -- Thanks or Good Luck, There may be humor in this post, and, Naturally, you will not sue, Should things get worse after this, PCR pcrrcp@netzero.net
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