MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

[Guest MI5-Victim@mi5.gov.uk]

Why do you think MI5 are responsible?

 

The question of who is ultimately responsible for this eight-year

harassment is one which is very difficult to answer, as the persecutors

have never clearly made their identities known to the persecutee. However,

I believe I am correct in attributing the continuing victimisation to

elements of the British Security Service MI5, and in this article, I will

try to explain the reasons for this belief.

 

The British internet magazine ".net" featured my website on page 17 of

their March 1998 issue (number 42). Their review kindly describes it as an

"excellent site" and gives some details of what the net surfer will find

there. Should you wish to reply to this article you can do so;

 

"When did you first suspect MI5 were responsible?"

 

Over Easter 1995 I went to see a local solicitor in London with a view to

talking to the police about the harassment. Soon afterwards I did go to my

local police station in Clapham and spoke to an officer there. The

solicitor made a comment which suggested to me that the persecution I had

been experiencing may have been organised by an intelligence service.

 

Up to this point, I did not have any clear idea as to who was behind the

harassment. Only their agents were visible, in the media, on television

news programmes, and on the radio; in the workplace, where things said at

my home were repeated verbatim; and in some cases abuse in public and

during travel, for example on the trip to Poland in June 1992 which I have

already described.

 

Both from the fact that widely disparate individuals and organisations

were employed as agents in the campaign against me, and from the fact that

an entity would be required to marshal their resources in the areas of

spying on my home and giving gathered information to their agents, it was

clear to me that a single entity was responsible for carrying out the

campaign. Yet from June 1990 until Easter 1995 I did not have a clear idea

of who might be responsible. I guessed that perhaps some private

individual or group of persons who saw themselves as my enemies had

perhaps paid private detectives to organise the harassment. Alternatively,

since the campaign had started in the media, I made a far-fetched

supposition that perhaps it was an ad-hoc group of media people who had

set themselves up in opposition to me. After Easter 1995 I saw that these

guesses were wrong, and I made an I believe much more accurate estimate as

to who my enemies really are.

 

"Why couldn't a private group be behind the persecution?"

 

There are several reasons why a private individual or group would not be

behind this campaign.

 

Quantity of resources / Money. Here is what one Usenet (internet

newsgroup) participant had to say (several years ago) on the topic of how

much money it would cost just to keep the surveillance going.

 

PM: >But why? And why you? Do you realize how much it would cost to keep

PM: >one person under continuous surveillance for five years? Think about

PM: >all the man/hours. Say they _just_ allocated a two man team and a

PM: >supervisor. OK., Supervisor's salary, say, #30,000 a year. Two men,

PM: >#20,000 a year each. But they'd need to work in shifts -- so it would

PM: >be six men at #20,000 (which with on-costs would work out at more

like

PM: >#30,000 to the employer.)

PM: >

PM: >So, we're talking #30,000 x 6. #180,000. plus say, #40,000 for the

PM: >supervisor. #220,000. Then you've got the hardware involved. And

PM: >any transcription that needs doing. You don't think the 'Big Boss'

PM: >would listen to hours and hours of tapes, do you.

PM: >

PM: >So, all in all, you couldn't actually do the job for much less than

PM: >a quarter million a year. Over five years. What are you doing that

makes

PM: >it worth the while of the state to spend over one and a quarter

million

PM: >on you?

 

A private individual or group would not spend over a million pounds to

verbally torture a victim without some financial motive or gain. Private

industry is driven by the profit motive, and there is no financial profit

to be had from carrying out a campaign in this way. If a private

enterprise were behind it then they would have taken direct physical

action a long time ago.

 

State enterprises, on the other hand, can afford to be wasteful, since

they are funded by the taxpayer. They do not have to show a money

profit. The employees or contractors employed by a state organisation such

as MI5 are driven by their own personal profit motives, to make the most

money out of their employers for the longest period of time. MI5 is funded

to the tune of #150M p.a.; even a few hundred thousand a year would to

them be affordable if their managers could convince themselves of the

necessity of what they were doing.

 

Quality of resources / Technical resources - electronic and other

surveillance. In summer 1994 a reputable and competent private detective

agency was employed to conduct a counter-surveillance sweep of my home in

London. They charged us over #400 for this, conducted a thorough search

for radio transmitting devices, hard-wired "probe" microphones and also

tested the telephone line. They found nothing. This was not altogether

surprising, since it had been made very clear to me that there were bugs

in my home; the "buggers" would not have made this clear unless they had

felt their bugs were of sufficient sophistication as to be safe from

detection.

 

But there is another lesson to be gained from the failure of the private

detectives to find anything. The agency employed was one of the most

reputable in London. They were employed on the principle of "setting a

thief to catch a thief", for if the harassment were being carried out by

private detectives, as I then believed, then surely another set of private

detectives would be able to find the bugs that they had planted. That

these "private eyes" were unable to find anything, and that the harassers

were confident that they would not be able to find any bugs, points to the

harassers being an order of sophistication above a private agency, and

leads me again to believe that a state intelligence service is responsible

for the surveillance and harassment.

 

Quality of resources / Technical resources - Interception of Postal

service. In summer 1994 when I emigrated to Canada to try to escape the

harassment, I wrote letters home to my family and friends in London. Quite

soon after my arrival in Canada, the harassers were able to find precisely

where I was staying. The only way I can see of "their" being able to find

out my new address was by interception of my letters to the UK.

 

Later in 1994, I conducted an experiment to see if my letters home were

indeed being read. In a letter home I wrote of being depressed and talked

in vague terms of suicide. I deliberately chose this topic, since I

believed it was the outcome my harassers were trying to achieve, and that

if they read the letter, they would "echo" its contents. Sure enough, soon

afterwards there were two incidents of people shouting "suicide" at me in

public places in Canada.

 

It is inconceivable for a private agency to have the ability to intercept

postal mail. The state security service on the other hand is well known to

engage in these activities.

 

Quality of resources / Access to Media. One of the strangest aspects of

this case is the access "they" have to the broadcast and print media. I

still do not understand what could persuade newscasters such as Martyn

Lewis and Michael Buerk, who consider themselves "gentlemen", to behave in

an almost voyeuristic way by "peeking" into the living room of one of

their viewers. A year ago I wrote to the BBC asking if these newscasters

would confirm or deny the accusations made against them. The BBC replied

that their newscasters had denied the accusations, but refused to do so in

writing.

 

It is well known that MI5 have the ability to plant stories in certain

newspapers, but convincing television newscasters to "watch" a viewer

while they read the news would surely be very difficult for them to

accomplish, unless they presented themselves to these journalists as

being, for example, a group in the media who were seeing to it that I got

my "deserved" treatment. MI5 has a history of manipulating the media, so

it might not be too difficult for them to accomplish such a trick, whereas

a private group would not have this ability.

 

"Have they ever denied that they are the Security Service?"

 

No. Never. This is in fact the main reason why I believe "they" are MI5

and not a privately funded group. If my guess had been wrong then I am

sure that "they" would have crowed over my mistake, but they have never

admitted nor denied that they are employees of MI5.

 

In early January 1996 I flew on a British Airways jet from London to

Montreal; also present on the plane, about three or four rows behind me,

were two young men, one of them fat and voluble, the other silent. It was

quite clear that these two had been planted on the aircraft to "wind me

up". The fat youth described the town in Poland where I had spent

Christmas, and made some unpleasant personal slurs against me. Most

interestingly, he said the words, "he doesnt know who we are".

 

Now I find this particular form of words very interesting, because while

it is not a clear admission, it is only a half-hearted attempt at denial

of my guess that "they" = "MI5". Had my guess been wrong, the fat youth

would surely have said so more clearly.

 

"If MI5 were behind it, why would they wish to mask their involvement?"

 

I have heard a number of times a belief from people in the media that it

is they, the media people, who are behind the abuse. In spring 1994 Chris

Tarrant the Capital Radio D.J. said sarcastically on his breakfast show,

"You know this bloke? he says were trying to kill him. We should be done

for attempted manslaughter". We, we, we. Tarrant thought it was a media

conspiracy.

 

Returning to the question of "interactive watching" by television

newscasters, it would again be much easier for them to take part in that

sort of activity if they convinced themselves that the surveillance and

abuse were organised by "their own", by media people. It must be second

nature to MI5 to mask their involvement in the matters they deal with; in

this case, they pretend the campaign is organised by a group in the media,

and any journalists who suspect otherwise keep their silence.

 

Conclusion

 

Over the last three years I have stated with some force my belief that MI5

are responsible for my misfortunes. I have done so on Internet newsgroups,

in letters and faxes to people in politics and the media in the UK, and in

1997 I made a formal complaint to MI5 regarding their activities; the

Security Service Tribunal replied in June 1997 that "no determination in

your favour has been made on your complaint". (I believe the statement by

the Security Service Tribunal can be disregarded, as they have never, ever

made a ruling in favour of a complainant.) In three years of naming MI5 as

my oppressor "they" have never denied the charge. To me, their silence on

this point indicates that my guess was accurate. I believe my persecutors

stand identified. The question of why they should carry out this campaign

is one I will try to answer in a future article.

 

2369

 

 

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[Guest Heirloom]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

 

<> wrote in message news:m07111611333900@4ax.com...

 

Incoherent ramblings of a delusional, persecutory, paranoid, conspiracy

theorist with a desperate need for a public venue, yet, providing no reasons

or evidence to support any of their grandiose, self-elevating, bizarre and

obviously dysfunctional thoughts.

Heirloom, old and hearing it is worse than stepping

in it.

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

Heirloom <nobodyhome@noplacelike.hom> wrote:

> <> wrote in message news:m07111611333900@4ax.com...

>

> Incoherent ramblings of a delusional, persecutory, paranoid,

> conspiracy theorist with a desperate need for a public venue, yet,

> providing no reasons or evidence to support any of their grandiose,

> self-elevating, bizarre and obviously dysfunctional thoughts.

> Heirloom, old and hearing it is worse than

> stepping in it.

 

[Applause] It appears that the NHS now allows psychiatric inmates to have

access to computers, either that or care in the community has sunk to new

depths.

--

Mike M

[Guest N. Miller]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 09:06:13 -0600, Heirloom wrote:

> <> wrote in message news:m07111611333900@4ax.com...

>

> Incoherent ramblings of a delusional, persecutory, paranoid, conspiracy

> theorist with a desperate need for a public venue, yet, providing no reasons

> or evidence to support any of their grandiose, self-elevating, bizarre and

> obviously dysfunctional thoughts.

> Heirloom, old and hearing it is worse than stepping

> in it.

 

Just filter the poster, and be done with it.

 

--

Norman

~Shine, bright morning light,

~now in the air the spring is coming.

~Sweet, blowing wind,

~singing down the hills and valleys.

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

"Blessed is the man that doeth this, that keepeth the Sabbath, and keepeth

his hand from doing any evil.

 

"Neither let the strangers that have joined themselves to me, say, God will

separate me from His people. For thus saith the Lord: Whoever will keep my

Sabbath, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

even unto them will I give in mine house a place and a name better than that

of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall

not be cut off."

 

Is. 59:9: "Therefore for our iniquities is justice far from us: we wait for

light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness. We

grope for the wall like the blind; we stumble at noonday as in the night: we

are in desolate places as dead men.

 

"We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves; we look for judgment,

but there is none; for salvation, but it is far from us."

 

Is. 66:18: "But I know their works and their thoughts; it shall come that I

will gather all nations and tongues, and they shall see my glory.

 

"And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them

unto the nations, to Africa, to Lydia, to Italy, to Greece, and to the

people that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory. And they

shall bring your brethren.

 

Jer. 7. Reprobation of the Temple: "Go ye unto Shiloth, where I set my name

at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people. And

now, because ye have done all these works, saith the Lord, I will do unto

this house, wherein my name is called upon, wherein ye trust, and unto the

place which I gave to your priests, as I have done to Shiloth." (For I have

rejected it, and made myself a temple

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

time; and having been

particularly acquainted with the experiences of many who were converted

under his ministry before. And I know no one of them, who in the least

doubts of its being the same Spirit and the same work. Persons have now

no otherwise been subject to impressions on their imaginations than

formerly: the work is of the same nature, and has not been attended with

any extraordinary circumstances, excepting such as are analogous to the

extraordinary degree of it before described. And God's people who were

formerly converted have now partaken of the same shower of divine

blessing-in the renewing, strengthening, edifying, influences of the

Spirit of God-that others have in His converting influences; and the

work here has also been plainly the same with that of other places which

have been mentioned, as partaking of the same blessing. I have

particularly conversed with persons about their experiences, who belong

to all parts of the country, and in various parts of Connecticut, where

a religious concern has lately appeared; and have been informed of the

experiences of many others by their own pastors.

 

It is easily perceived by the foregoing account, that it is very much

the practice of the people here, to converse freely one with another

about their spiritual experiences; which many have been disgusted at.

But however our people may have, in some respects, gone to extremes in

it, it is, doubtless, a practice that the circumstances of this town,

and neighboring towns, have naturally led them into. Whatsoever people

have their minds engaged to such a degree in the same affair, that it is

ever uppermost in their thoughts, they will naturally make it the

subject of conversation when they get together, in which they will grow

more and more free. Restraints will soon vanish, and they will not

conceal from one another what they meet with. And it has been a

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

happens, and there is a disproportion between the state of their faith and

the instrument of the miracle, it ought--then to induce them to change. But

with you it is otherwise. There would be as much reason in saying that, if

the Eucharist raised a dead man, it would be necessary for one to turn a

Calvinist rather than remain a Catholic. But when it crowns the expectation,

and those, who hoped that God would bless the remedies, see themselves

healed without remedies.

 

The ungodly.--No sign has ever happened on the part of the devil without a

stronger sign on the part of God, or even without it having been foretold

that such would happen.

 

852. Unjust persecutors of those whom God visibly protects. If they reproach

you with your excesses, "they speak as the heretics." If they say that the

grace of Jesus Christ distinguishes us, "they are heretics." If they do

miracles, "it is the mark of their heresy."

 

Ezekiel. They say: These are the people of God who speak thus.

 

It is said, "Believe in the Church"; but it is not said, "Believe in

miracles"; because the last is natural, and not the first. The one had need

of a precept, not the other. Hezekiah.

 

The synagogue was only a type, and thus it did not perish; and it was only a

type, and so it is decayed. It was a type which contained the truth, and

thus it has lasted until it no longer contained the truth.

 

My reverend father, all this happened in types. Other religions perish; this

one perishes not.

 

Miracle

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

hosts. Would he who had possessed the friendship of the King of

England, the King of Poland, and the Queen of Sweden, have believed he would

lack a refuge and shelter in the world?

 

178. Macrobius: on the innocents slain by Herod.

 

179. When Augustus learnt that Herod's own son was amongst the infants under

two years of age, whom he had caused to be slain, he said that it was better

to be Herod's pig than his son. Macrobius, Saturnalia, ii. 4.

 

180. The great and the humble have the same misfortunes, the same griefs,

the same passions; but the one is at the top of the wheel, and the other

near the centre, and so less disturbed by the same revolutions.

 

181. We are so unfortunate that we can only take pleasure in a thing on

condition of being annoyed if it turn out ill, as a thousand things can do,

and do every hour. He who should find the secret of rejoicing in the good,

without troubling himself with its contrary evil, would have hit the mark.

It is perpetual motion.

 

182. Those who have always good hope in the midst of misfortunes, and who

are delighted with good luck, are suspected of being very pleased with the

ill success of the affair, if they are not equally distressed by bad luck;

and they are overjoyed to find these pretexts of hope, in order to show that

they are concerned and to conceal by the joy which they feign to feel that

which they have at seeing the failure of the matter.

 

183. We run carelessly to the precipice, after we have put something before

us to prevent us seeing it.

 

SECTION III: OF THE NECESSITY OF THE WAGER

 

184. A letter to incite to the search after God.

 

And then to make people seek Him among the philosophers, sceptics, and

dogmatists, who disquiet him who inquires of them.

 

185. The conduct of God, who disposes all things kindly, is to pu

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

For some districts are full of

masons, others of soldiers, etc. Certainly nature is not so uniform. It is

custom then which does this, for it constrains nature. But sometimes nature

gains the ascendancy and preserves man's instinct, in spite of all custom,

good or bad.

 

98. Bias leading to error.--It is a deplorable thing to see all men

deliberating on means alone, and not on the end. Each thinks how he will

acquit himself in his condition; but as for the choice of condition, or of

country, chance gives them to us.

 

It is a pitiable thing to see so many Turks, heretics, and infidels follow

the way of their fathers for the sole reason that each has been imbued with

the prejudice that it is the best. And that fixes for each man his condition

of locksmith, soldier, etc.

 

Hence savages care nothing for Providence.

 

99. There is an universal and essential difference between the actions of

the will and all other actions.

 

The will is one of the chief factors in belief, not that it creates belief,

but because things are true or false according to the aspect in which we

look a

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

own unworthiness

before God. There is felt, inwardly, sometimes a disposition to praise

God; and after a little while the light comes in more clearly and

powerfully. But yet, I think, more frequently, great terrors have been

followed with more sudden and great light and comfort; when the sinner

seems to be as it were subdued and brought to a calm, from a kind of

tumult of mind, then God lets in an extraordinary sense of His great

mercy through a Redeemer.

 

Converting influences very commonly bring an extraordinary conviction of

the reality and certainty of the great things of religion; though in

some this is much greater some time after conversion, than at first.

They have that sight and taste of the divine excellency there is in the

gospel, which is more effectual to convince them than reading many

volumes of arguments without it. It seems to me, that in many instances,

when the glory of Christian truths has been set before persons, and they

have at the same time as it were seen, and tasted, and felt the divinity

of them, they have been as far from doubting their truth as they are

from doubting whether there be a sun, when their eyes are open in the

midst of a clear hemisphere, and the strong blaze of His light overcomes

all objections. And yet, many of them, if we should ask them why they

believed those things to be true, would not be able well to express or

communicate a sufficient reason to satisfy the inquirer; and perhaps

would make no other answer but that they see Him to be true. But a

person might soon be satisfied, by a particular conversation with them,

that what they mean by such an answer is, that they have intuitive

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

God. Some have declared themselves to be in

the hands of God, that He may dispose of them just as He pleases; some,

that God may glorify Himself in their damnation, and they wonder that

God has suffered them to live so long, and has not cast them into hell

long ago.

 

Some are brought to this conviction by a great sense of their

sinfulness, in general, that they are such vile wicked creatures in

heart and life: others have the sins of their lives in an extraordinary

manner set before them, multitudes of them coming just then fresh to

their memory, and being set before them with their aggravations. Some

have their minds especially fixed on some particular wicked practice

they have indulged. Some are especially convinced by a sight of the

corruption and wickedness of their hearts. Some, from a view they have

of the horridness of some particular exercises of corruption, which they

have had in the time of their awakening, whereby the enmity of the heart

against God has been manifested. Some are convinced especially by a

sense of the sin of unbelief, the opposition of their hearts to the way

of salvation by Christ, and their obstinacy in rejecting Him and His

grace.

 

There is a great deal of difference as to distinctness here; some, who

have not so clear a sight of God's justice in their condemnation, yet

mention things that plainly imply it. They find a disposition to

acknowledge God to be just and righteous in His threatenings, and that

they are undeserving: and many times, though they had not so particular

a sight of it at the beginning, they have very clear discoveries of it

soon afterwards, with great humblings in the dust before God.

 

Commonly persons' minds immediately before this discovery of God's

justice are exceedingly restless, in a kind of struggle and tumult, an

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

more appear, if her experiences were fully related,

as she was wont to express and manifest them, while living. I once read

this account to some of her pious neighbors, who were acquainted with

her, who said, to this purpose, that the picture fell much short of the

life; and particularly that it much failed of duly representing her

humility, and that admirable lowliness of heart, that all times appeared

in her. But there are, blessed be God! many living instances, of much

the like nature, and in some things no less extraordinary.

 

But I now proceed to the other instance, that of the little child before

mentioned. Her name is Phebe Bartlet, [she was living in March, 1789,

and maintained the character of a true convert.] daughter of William

Bartlet. I shall give the account as I took it from the mouth of her

parents, whose veracity none who know them doubt of.

 

She was born in March, 1731. About the latter end of April, or beginning

of May, 1735, she was greatly affected by the talk of her brother, who

had been hopefully converted a little before, at about eleven years of

age, and then seriously talked to her about the great things of

religion. Her parents did not know of it at that time, and were not

wont, in the counsels they gave to their children, particularly to

direct themselves to her, being so you

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

because they do not see that all things concur to the

establishment of this point, that God does not manifest Himself to men with

all the evidence which He could show.

 

But let them conclude what they will against deism, they will conclude

nothing against the Christian religion, which properly consists in the

mystery of the Redeemer, who, uniting in Himself the two natures, human and

divine, has redeemed men from the corruption of sin in order to reconcile

them in His divine person to God.

 

The Christian religion, then, teaches men these two truths; that there is a

God whom men can know, and that there is a corruption in their nature which

renders them unworthy of Him. It is equally important to men to know both

these points; and it is equally dangerous for man to know God without

knowing his own wretchedness, and to know his own wretchedness without

knowing the Redeemer who can free him from it. The knowledge of only one of

these points gives rise either to the pride of philosophers, who have known

God, and not their own wretchedness, or to the despair of atheists, who know

their own wretchedness, but not the Redeemer.

 

And, as it is alike necessary to man to know these two points, so is it

alike merciful of God to have made us know them. The Christian religion does

this; it is in this that it consists.

 

Let us herein examine the order of the world and see if all things do not

tend to establish these two chief points of this r

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

broken to

pieces together, and the wind carried them away; but this stone that smote

the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. This is the

dream, and now I will give thee the interpretation thereof.

 

"Thou who art the greatest of kings, and to whom God hath given a power so

vast that thou art renowned among all peoples, art the head of gold which

thou hast seen. But after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee,

and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the

earth.

 

"But the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron, and even as iron breaketh

in pieces and subdueth all things, so shall this empire break in pieces and

bruise all.

 

"And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of clay and part of iron,

the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of

iron and of the weakness of clay.

 

"But as iron cannot be firmly mixed with clay, so they who are represented

by the iron and by the clay, shall not cleave one to another though united

by marriage.

 

"Now in the days of these kings shall God set up a kingdom, which shall

never be destroyed, nor ever be delivered up to other people. It shall break

in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever,

according as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without

hands, and that it fell from the mountain, and brake in pieces the iron, the

clay, the silver, and the gold. God hath made known to thee what shall come

to pass hereafter. This dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof

sure.

 

"Then Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face towards the earth," etc.

 

Daniel 8:8. "Daniel having seen the combat of the ram and of the he-goat,

who vanquished him and ruled over the earth, whereof the principal horn

being broken four others came up tow

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

the other,

that in the state of corruption and sin, he is fallen from this state and

made like unto the beasts.

 

These two propositions are equally sound and certain. Scripture manifestly

declares this to us, when it says in some places: Deliciae meae esse cum

filiis hominum.65 Effundam spiritum meum super omnem carnem.66 Dii estis,67

etc.; and in other places, Omnis caro faenum.68 Homo assimilatus est

jumentis insipientibus, et similis factus est illis.69 Dixi in corde meo de

filiis hominum.70

 

Whence it clearly seems that man by grace is made like unto God, and a

partaker in His divinity, and that without grace he is like unto the brute

beasts.

 

435. Without this divine knowledge what could men do but either become

elated by the inner feeling of their past greatness which still remains to

them, or become despondent at the sight of their present weakness? For, not

seeing the whole truth, they could not attain to perfect virtue. Some

considering nature as incorrupt, others as incurable, they could not escape

either pride or sloth, the two sources of all vice; since they cannot but

either abandon themselves to it through cowardice, or escape it by pride.

For if they knew the excellence of man, they were ignorant of his

corruption; so that they easily avoided sloth, but fell into pride. And if

they recognized the infirmity of nature, they were ignorant of its dignity;

so that they could easily avoid vanity, but it was to fall into despair.

Thence arise the different schools of the Stoics and Epicureans, th

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

law.

 

Theft, incest, infanticide, parricide, have all had a place among virtuous

actions. Can anything be more ridiculous than that a man should have the

right to kill me because he lives on the other side of the water, and

because his ruler has a quarrel with mine, though I have none with him?

 

Doubtless there are natural laws; but good reason once corrupted has

corrupted all. Nihil amplius nostrum est; quod nostrum dicimus, artis est.40

Ex senatus--consultis et plebiscitis crimina exercentur.[41] Ut olim vitiis,

sic nunc legibus laboramus.[42]

 

The result of this confusion is that one affirms the essence of justice to

be the authority of the legislator; another, the interest of the sovereign;

another, present custom, and this is the most sure. Nothing, according to

reason alone, is just itself; all changes with time. Custom creates the

whole of equity, for the simple reason that it is accepted. It is the

mystical foundation of its authority; whoever carries it back to first

principles destroys it. Nothing is so faulty as those laws which correct

faults. He who obeys them becaus

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Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

the prophecies (Is. 60; Ps. 71).

 

762. What could the Jews, His enemies, do? If they receive Him, they give

proof of Him by their reception; for then the guardians of the expectation

of the Messiah receive Him. If they reject Him, they give proof of Him by

their rejection.

 

763. The Jews, in testing if He were God, have shown that He was man.

 

764. The Church has had as much difficulty in showing that Jesus Christ was

man, against those who denied it, as in showing that He was God; and the

probabilities were equally great.

 

765. Source of contradictions.--A God humiliated, even to the death on the

cross; a Messiah triumphing over death by his own death. Two natures in

Jesus Christ, two advents, two states of man's nature.

 

766. Types.--Saviour, father, sacrificer, offering, food, king, wise,

law-giver, afflicted, poor, having to create a people whom He must lead and

nourish and bring into His land...

 

Jesus Christ. Offices.--He alone had to create a great people, elect, holy,

and chosen; to lead, nourish, and bring it into the place of rest and

holiness; to make it holy to God; to make it the temple of God; to reconcile

it to, and, save it from, the wrath of God; to free it from the slavery of

sin, which visibly reigns in man

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

they are the tricks.

 

Miracle does not always signify miracle. I Sam. 14:15; miracle signifies

fear, and is so in the Hebrew. The same evidently in Job 33:7; and also

Isaiah 21:4; Jeremiah 44:12. Portentum signifies simulacrum, Jeremiah 50:38;

and it is so in the Hebrew and Vatable. Isaiah 8:18. Jesus Christ says that

He and His will be in miracles.

 

820. If the devil favoured the doctrine which destroys him, he would be

divided against himself, as Jesus Christ said. If God favoured the doctrine

which destroys the Church, He would be divided against Himself. Omne regnum

divisum.[180] For Jesus Christ wrought against the devil, and destroyed his

power over the heart, of which exorcism is the symbolisation, in order to

establish the kingdom of God. And thus He adds, Si in digito Dei... regnum

Dei ad Vos.181

 

821. There is a great difference between tempting and leading into error.

God tempts, but He does not lead into error. To tempt is to afford

opportunities, which impose no necessity; if men do not love God, they will

do a certain thing. To lead into error is to place a man under the necessity

of inferring and following out what is untrue.

 

822. Abraham and Gideon are above revelation. The Jews blinded themselves in

judging of miracles by the Scripture. God has never abandoned His true

worshippers.

 

I prefer to follow Jesus Christ than any other, because He has miracle,

prophecy, doctrine, perpetuity, etc.

 

The Donatists. No miracle which obliges them to say it is the devil.

 

The more we particularise God, Jesus Christ, the Church.

 

823. If there were no false miracles, there would be certainty. If there

were no rule to judge of them, miracles would be useless and there would be

no reason for believing.

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His wounds to be touched

after His resurrection: Noli me tangere.[99] We must unite ourselves only to

His sufferings.

 

At the Last Supper He gave Himself in communion as about to die; to the

disciples at Emmaus as risen from the dead; to the whole Church as ascended

into heaven.

 

555. "Compare not thyself with others, but with Me. If thou dost not find Me

in those with whom thou comparest thyself, thou comparest thyself to one who

is abominable. If thou findest Me in them, compare thyself to Me. But whom

wilt thou compare? Thyself, or Me in thee? If it is thyself, it is one who

is abominable. If it is I, thou comparest Me to Myself. Now I am God in all.

 

"I speak to thee, and often counsel thee, because thy director cannot speak

to thee, for I do not want thee to lack a guide.

 

"And perhaps I do so at his prayers, and thus he leads thee without thy

seeing it. Thou wouldst not seek Me, if thou didst not possess Me.

 

"Be not therefore troubled."

 

SECTION VIII: THE FUNDAMENTALS OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION

 

556.... Men blaspheme what they do not know. The Christian religion consists

in two points. It is of equal concern to men to know them, and it is equally

dangerous to be ignorant of them. And it is equally of God's mercy that He

has given indications of both.

 

And yet they take occasion to conclude that one of these points does not

exist, from that which should have caused them to infer the other. The sages

who have said there is only one God have been persecuted, the Jews were

hated, and still more the Christians. They have seen by the light of nature

that if there be a true religion on earth, the course of all things must

tend to it as to a ce

[Guest Mike M]

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perhaps at least the soul will know itself. Let us hear

the rulers of the world on this subject. What have they thought of her

substance? 394.[10] Have they been more fortunate in locating her? 395. What

have they found out about her origin, duration, and departure? Harum

sententiarum, 399.[11]

 

Is, then, the soul too noble a subject for their feeble lights? Let us,

then, abase her to matter and see if she knows whereof is made the very body

which she animates and those others which she contemplates and moves at her

will. What have those great dogmatists, who are ignorant of nothing, known

of this matter? 393.[12]

 

This would doubtless suffice, if Reason were reasonable. She is reasonable

enough to admit that she has been unable to find anything durable, but she

does not yet despair of reaching it; she is as ardent as ever in this

search, and is confident she has within her the necessary powers for this

conquest. We must therefore conclude, and, after having examined her powers

in their effects, observe them in themselves, and see if she has a nature

and a grasp capable of laying hold of the truth.

 

74. A letter On the F

[Guest Mike M]

Re: MI5-Persecution: Why do you think MI5 are responsible? (2369)

 

says to the woman of Samaria, when He

reveals to her all her hidden life. Then He heals the centurion's son; and

Saint John calls this "the second miracle."

 

809. The combinations of miracles.

 

810. The second miracle can suppose the first, but the first cannot suppose

the second.

 

811. Had it not been for the miracles, there would have been no sin in not

believing in Jesus Christ.

 

812. "I should not be a Christian, but for the miracles," said Saint

Augustine.

 

813. Miracles.--How I hate those who make men doubt of miracles! Montaigne

speaks of them as he should in two places. In one, we see how careful he is;

and yet, in the other, he believes and makes sport of unbelievers.

 

However it may be, the Church is without proofs if they are right.

 

814. Montaigne against miracles.

 

Montaigne for miracles.

 

815. It is not possible to have a reasonable belief against miracles.

 

816. Unbelievers the most credulous. They believe the miracles of Vespasian,

in order not to believe those of Moses.

 

817. Title: How it happens that men believe so many liars, who say that they

have seen miracles, and do not believe any of those who say that they have

secrets to make men immortal, or restore youth to them.--Having considered

how it happens that so great credence is given to so many impostors, who say

they have remedies, often to the length of men putting their lives into

their hands, it has appeared to me that the true cause is that there are

true remedies. For it would not be possible that there should be so many

false remedies and that so much faith should be placed in them, if there

were none true. If there had never been any remedy for any in, and all ills

had been incurable, it is impossible that men should have imagined that they

could give remedies, and still more