Understanding Installation/Use of Programs on TS

[Guest compsosinc@gmail.com]

We are experimenting with a potential setup - using VirtualPC - for

implementing Terminal Services on a network and have a question about

installing/using applications on the TS. In this experiment, TS is

installed on the DC.

 

On the real network we are attempting to mimic, there is an

application installed on the DC that is used for Accounting purposes.

The fat-clients have the program installed locally and map to the DC

for the data. Now this network needs to add remote thin-clients

(cannot install program locally) to access the program.

 

So, after TS is installed on this DC:

 

1. Can both the current clients and the thin-clients use the program

without it being reinstalled or is this specific to the program in use

--or is it 100% related to the design/use of TS? We cannot experiment

here since we do not have this particular software.

 

2. Will installing TS on this DC "break" any applications for current

clients that access it.

 

3. We can experiment with MS Office 2003 Pro but have a licensing

question. If a properly licensed TS client connects to the TS for the

purpose of using MS Office, and the client has the same version of

Office installed, is any additional Office license needed?

 

4. Since a Thin-client will not have Office installed locally, we need

to purchase an Office license -correct?

 

5. We can only experiment with Office 2003 --is anyone aware of any

differences with regards to the above scenario for Office 2007?

 

Thanks!

[Guest compsosinc@gmail.com]

Re: Understanding Installation/Use of Programs on TS

 

On Jan 3, 9:02 am, compsos...@gmail.com wrote:

> We are experimenting with a potential setup - using VirtualPC - for

> implementing Terminal Services on a network and have a question about

> installing/using applications on the TS. In this experiment, TS is

> installed on the DC.

>

> On the real network we are attempting to mimic, there is an

> application installed on the DC that is used for Accounting purposes.

> The fat-clients have the program installed locally and map to the DC

> for the data. Now this network needs to add remote thin-clients

> (cannot install program locally) to access the program.

>

> So, after TS is installed on this DC:

>

> 1. Can both the current clients and the thin-clients use the program

> without it being reinstalled or is this specific to the program in use

> --or is it 100% related to the design/use of TS? We cannot experiment

> here since we do not have this particular software.

>

> 2. Will installing TS on this DC "break" any applications for current

> clients that access it.

>

> 3. We can experiment with MS Office 2003 Pro but have a licensing

> question. If a properly licensed TS client connects to the TS for the

> purpose of using MS Office, and the client has the same version of

> Office installed, is any additional Office license needed?

>

> 4. Since a Thin-client will not have Office installed locally, we need

> to purchase an Office license -correct?

>

> 5. We can only experiment with Office 2003 --is anyone aware of any

> differences with regards to the above scenario for Office 2007?

>

> Thanks!

 

Forgot a question:

 

6. If applicable, is there a specific error message generated by TS

(Microsoft) when a client attempts to use a program that was installed

prior to installing TS --ie when the program was not installed in

"install mode". Or does the error come from the program trying to be

used.

[Guest Vera Noest [MVP]]

Re: Understanding Installation/Use of Programs on TS

 

Comments inline.

 

compsosinc@gmail.com wrote on 03 jan 2008 in

microsoft.public.windows.terminal_services:

> On Jan 3, 9:02 am, compsos...@gmail.com wrote:

>> We are experimenting with a potential setup - using VirtualPC -

>> for implementing Terminal Services on a network and have a

>> question about installing/using applications on the TS. In this

>> experiment, TS is installed on the DC.

 

I hope that running TS on a DC is only for testing purposes. This

is *not* recommended in a production environment, for both security

and performance reasons!

>> On the real network we are attempting to mimic, there is an

>> application installed on the DC that is used for Accounting

>> purposes. The fat-clients have the program installed locally

>> and map to the DC for the data. Now this network needs to add

>> remote thin-clients (cannot install program locally) to access

>> the program.

>>

>> So, after TS is installed on this DC:

>>

>> 1. Can both the current clients and the thin-clients use the

>> program without it being reinstalled or is this specific to the

>> program in use --or is it 100% related to the design/use of TS?

>> We cannot experiment here since we do not have this particular

>> software.

 

Since the fat clients only use the server as a file server, the fat

clients will not be affected.

But there's no way to predict if your thin clients will be able to

use the application successfully if you do not uninstall it first,

and then reinstall it *after* installing Terminal Services. By not

installing the application in "install mode" you prevent the server

from providing a real multi-user environment.

>> 2. Will installing TS on this DC "break" any applications for

>> current clients that access it.

 

See above. Fat clients should not be affected, they only access the

data and run the application locally.

>> 3. We can experiment with MS Office 2003 Pro but have a

>> licensing question. If a properly licensed TS client connects

>> to the TS for the purpose of using MS Office, and the client

>> has the same version of Office installed, is any additional

>> Office license needed?

 

No. Office licenses are always Per Device, and it doesn't matter

how a device runs Office, as long as the version and product suite

are *exactly* the same. Note that this does *not* include clients

with an OEM version of Office (that came with the client) since you

cannot install an OEM version of Office on a TS.

>> 4. Since a Thin-client will not have Office installed locally,

>> we need to purchase an Office license -correct?

 

Yes. One license per connecting device (not concurrent).

>> 5. We can only experiment with Office 2003 --is anyone aware of

>> any differences with regards to the above scenario for Office

>> 2007?

 

For Office 2007 on a TS: only licenses obtained through the

Microsoft Volume Licensing Program can be deployed.

Details are here:

 

Licensing of Microsoft Desktop Application Software for Use with

Windows Server Terminal Services

http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/7/7/17745e4a-5d31-4de4-

a416-

07c646336d94/desktop_application_with_windows_server_terminal_servi

ces.doc

>> Thanks!

>

> Forgot a question:

>

> 6. If applicable, is there a specific error message generated by

> TS (Microsoft) when a client attempts to use a program that was

> installed prior to installing TS --ie when the program was not

> installed in "install mode". Or does the error come from the

> program trying to be used.

 

No. You get the general warning that all programs must be

uninstalled and then re-installed when you install Terminal

Services. If you ignore that warning, all bets are off.

What you can expect is that users will be unable to use personal

application settings, inherit the settings from the last logged-on

user, get access denied errors when they need to access shared

files, and so on. All depends on the type of application.

 

_________________________________________________________

Vera Noest

MCSE, CCEA, Microsoft MVP - Terminal Server

TS troubleshooting: http://ts.veranoest.net

___ please respond in newsgroup, NOT by private email ___

[Guest compsosinc@gmail.com]

Re: Understanding Installation/Use of Programs on TS

 

On Jan 3, 4:02 pm, "Vera Noest [MVP]" <vera.no...@remove-

this.hem.utfors.se> wrote:

> Comments inline.

>

> compsos...@gmail.com wrote on 03 jan 2008 in

> microsoft.public.windows.terminal_services:

>

> > On Jan 3, 9:02 am, compsos...@gmail.com wrote:

> >> We are experimenting with a potential setup - using VirtualPC -

> >> for implementing Terminal Services on a network and have a

> >> question about installing/using applications on the TS. In this

> >> experiment, TS is installed on the DC.

>

> I hope that running TS on a DC is only for testing purposes. This

> is *not* recommended in a production environment, for both security

> and performance reasons!

>

> >> On the real network we are attempting to mimic, there is an

> >> application installed on the DC that is used for Accounting

> >> purposes. The fat-clients have the program installed locally

> >> and map to the DC for the data. Now this network needs to add

> >> remote thin-clients (cannot install program locally) to access

> >> the program.

>

> >> So, after TS is installed on this DC:

>

> >> 1. Can both the current clients and the thin-clients use the

> >> program without it being reinstalled or is this specific to the

> >> program in use --or is it 100% related to the design/use of TS?

> >> We cannot experiment here since we do not have this particular

> >> software.

>

> Since the fat clients only use the server as a file server, the fat

> clients will not be affected.

> But there's no way to predict if your thin clients will be able to

> use the application successfully if you do not uninstall it first,

> and then reinstall it *after* installing Terminal Services. By not

> installing the application in "install mode" you prevent the server

> from providing a real multi-user environment.

>

> >> 2. Will installing TS on this DC "break" any applications for

> >> current clients that access it.

>

> See above. Fat clients should not be affected, they only access the

> data and  run the application locally.

>

> >> 3. We can experiment with MS Office 2003 Pro but have a

> >> licensing question. If a properly licensed TS client connects

> >> to the TS for the purpose of using MS Office, and the client

> >> has the same version of Office installed, is any additional

> >> Office license needed?

>

> No. Office licenses are always Per Device, and it doesn't matter

> how a device runs Office, as long as the version and product suite

> are *exactly* the same. Note that this does *not* include clients

> with an OEM version of Office (that came with the client) since you

> cannot install an OEM version of Office on a TS.

>

> >> 4. Since a Thin-client will not have Office installed locally,

> >> we need to purchase an Office license -correct?

>

> Yes. One license per connecting device (not concurrent).

>

> >> 5. We can only experiment with Office 2003 --is anyone aware of

> >> any differences with regards to the above scenario for Office

> >> 2007?

>

> For Office 2007 on a TS: only licenses obtained through the

> Microsoft Volume Licensing Program can be deployed.

> Details are here:

>

> Licensing of Microsoft Desktop Application Software for Use with

> Windows Server Terminal Serviceshttp://download.microsoft.com/download/1/7/7/17745e4a-5d31-4de4-

> a416-

> 07c646336d94/desktop_application_with_windows_server_terminal_servi

> ces.doc

>

> >> Thanks!

>

> > Forgot a question:

>

> > 6. If applicable, is there a specific error message generated by

> > TS (Microsoft) when a client attempts to use a program that was

> > installed prior to installing TS --ie when the program was not

> > installed in "install mode". Or does the error come from the

> > program trying to be used.

>

> No. You get the general warning that all programs must be

> uninstalled and then re-installed when you install Terminal

> Services. If you ignore that warning, all bets are off.

> What you can expect is that users will be unable to use personal

> application settings, inherit the settings from the last logged-on

> user, get access denied errors when they need to access shared

> files, and so on. All depends on the type of application.

>

> _________________________________________________________

> Vera Noest

> MCSE, CCEA, Microsoft MVP - Terminal Server

> TS troubleshooting:  http://ts.veranoest.net

> ___ please respond in newsgroup, NOT by private email ___

 

Thank you so much for such a thorough explanation. We are just testing

this type of environment on a VirtualPC setup. However we have a

customer that has been persuaded by their software vendor (software in

question above) that they can run TS on their DC for these 10 remote

thin-clients. The customer plans to implement a web-based software

change with this vendor in the near future and did not want to invest

in a separate TS if they could get by for now. I spoke with the

software vendor about the use of their software after TS is installed

and they said we would not have to reinstall it since the Pervasive-

SQL database resides on the DC and the client-side of the software is

also installed on the DC.

 

Thanks again!

[Guest Vera Noest [MVP]]

Re: Understanding Installation/Use of Programs on TS

 

compsosinc@gmail.com wrote on 04 jan 2008 in

microsoft.public.windows.terminal_services:

> On Jan 3, 4:02 pm, "Vera Noest [MVP]" <vera.no...@remove-

> this.hem.utfors.se> wrote:

>> Comments inline.

>>

>> compsos...@gmail.com wrote on 03 jan 2008 in

>> microsoft.public.windows.terminal_services:

>>

>> > On Jan 3, 9:02 am, compsos...@gmail.com wrote:

>> >> We are experimenting with a potential setup - using

>> >> VirtualPC - for implementing Terminal Services on a network

>> >> and have a question about installing/using applications on

>> >> the TS. In this experiment, TS is installed on the DC.

>>

>> I hope that running TS on a DC is only for testing purposes.

>> This is *not* recommended in a production environment, for both

>> security and performance reasons!

>>

>> >> On the real network we are attempting to mimic, there is an

>> >> application installed on the DC that is used for Accounting

>> >> purposes. The fat-clients have the program installed locally

>> >> and map to the DC for the data. Now this network needs to

>> >> add remote thin-clients (cannot install program locally) to

>> >> access the program.

>>

>> >> So, after TS is installed on this DC:

>>

>> >> 1. Can both the current clients and the thin-clients use the

>> >> program without it being reinstalled or is this specific to

>> >> the program in use --or is it 100% related to the design/use

>> >> of TS? We cannot experiment here since we do not have this

>> >> particular software.

>>

>> Since the fat clients only use the server as a file server, the

>> fat clients will not be affected.

>> But there's no way to predict if your thin clients will be able

>> to use the application successfully if you do not uninstall it

>> first, and then reinstall it *after* installing Terminal

>> Services. By not installing the application in "install mode"

>> you prevent the server from providing a real multi-user

>> environment.

>>

>> >> 2. Will installing TS on this DC "break" any applications

>> >> for current clients that access it.

>>

>> See above. Fat clients should not be affected, they only access

>> the data and  run the application locally.

>>

>> >> 3. We can experiment with MS Office 2003 Pro but have a

>> >> licensing question. If a properly licensed TS client

>> >> connects to the TS for the purpose of using MS Office, and

>> >> the client has the same version of Office installed, is any

>> >> additional Office license needed?

>>

>> No. Office licenses are always Per Device, and it doesn't

>> matter how a device runs Office, as long as the version and

>> product suite are *exactly* the same. Note that this does *not*

>> include clients with an OEM version of Office (that came with

>> the client) since you cannot install an OEM version of Office

>> on a TS.

>>

>> >> 4. Since a Thin-client will not have Office installed

>> >> locally, we need to purchase an Office license -correct?

>>

>> Yes. One license per connecting device (not concurrent).

>>

>> >> 5. We can only experiment with Office 2003 --is anyone aware

>> >> of any differences with regards to the above scenario for

>> >> Office 2007?

>>

>> For Office 2007 on a TS: only licenses obtained through the

>> Microsoft Volume Licensing Program can be deployed.

>> Details are here:

>>

>> Licensing of Microsoft Desktop Application Software for Use

>> with Windows Server Terminal

>> Serviceshttp://download.microsoft.com/download/1/7

> /7/17745e4a-5d31-4de4-

>> a416-

>> 07c646336d94/desktop_application_with_windows_server_terminal_se

>> rvi ces.doc

>>

>> >> Thanks!

>>

>> > Forgot a question:

>>

>> > 6. If applicable, is there a specific error message generated

>> > by TS (Microsoft) when a client attempts to use a program

>> > that was installed prior to installing TS --ie when the

>> > program was not installed in "install mode". Or does the

>> > error come from the program trying to be used.

>>

>> No. You get the general warning that all programs must be

>> uninstalled and then re-installed when you install Terminal

>> Services. If you ignore that warning, all bets are off.

>> What you can expect is that users will be unable to use

>> personal application settings, inherit the settings from the

>> last logged-on user, get access denied errors when they need to

>> access shared files, and so on. All depends on the type of

>> application.

>>

>> _________________________________________________________

>> Vera Noest

>> MCSE, CCEA, Microsoft MVP - Terminal Server

>> TS troubleshooting:  http://ts.veranoest.net

>> ___ please respond in newsgroup, NOT by private email ___

>

> Thank you so much for such a thorough explanation. We are just

> testing this type of environment on a VirtualPC setup. However

> we have a customer that has been persuaded by their software

> vendor (software in question above) that they can run TS on

> their DC for these 10 remote thin-clients. The customer plans to

> implement a web-based software change with this vendor in the

> near future and did not want to invest in a separate TS if they

> could get by for now. I spoke with the software vendor about the

> use of their software after TS is installed and they said we

> would not have to reinstall it since the Pervasive- SQL database

> resides on the DC and the client-side of the software is also

> installed on the DC.

>

> Thanks again!

 

I'm sorry, but it sounds to me that the software vendor doesn't

know much about Terminal Services, or server roles in general, for

that matter.

 

What they are proposing is a single server which runs the DC role,

is an SQL server, a Terminal Server, and runs Office as well (for

the 10 thin clients). This is likely to give you performance

problems. When you install Terminal Services, the server is

internally tuned differently, to give highest priority to

interactive sessions. This is opposite to the optimal tuning of a

DC and an SQL server. And Office is rather resource-hungry as well.

So you could see performance problems on all functions: AD, SQL,

TS. How serious this is going to be depends on the hardware of the

server, the number of connecting users to the SQL database, and

much more.

 

The vendor is correct in saying that installing TS will not change

the SQL database, so the existing fat clients will not be affected,

as I also wrote. But the front-end application can potentially be

crippled by not installing it while the server is in install mode.

The vendor's argument that it isn't affected because it is

installed on the same server as the database is nonsense, but it is

possible that they *know* that their front-end application doesn't

have any user specific settings anyway, and doesn't use the

registry or any ini-files at all. If that is the case, then it's

possible that the front-end application works normally even after

you install TS, but I wouldn't take the word of the vendor alone

for this without further explanation.

 

Then there is of course the security problem. You will have 10

users running an interactive session on your DC, treating it like

their personal workstation. Ask yourself if you would feel

comfortable with 10 users in the server room, hacking at the

keyboard of the DC. In very small (max 5-10 total # of users) and

trusty environments, you can do this, but it puts *very* high

demands on your backup and restore procedures. Prepare for a total

screwup of your DC (and if it is your only DC, this means your

whole domain!), and make sure that you know how to restore it from

backup. And keep in mind that you might detect such a problem days

or weeks after the initial screwup, so you would need to be able to

go back a long time to find a good backup.

One such a scenario is if someone would install a 3rd party printer

driver on the TS. Most 3rd party printer drivers are not TS

compatible, and are known to crash the print spooler or the whole

server, which can lead to all kinds of other problems. What

complicates matters is that such driver problems often show

themselves intermittently, and make the server act irratic. So it

usually takes a long time before the problem is pinpointed to the

faulty printer driver. By that time, all of your backups could be

compromized.

 

So I honestly believe that you are doing your customer a favour by

strongly suggesting to them to invest in a second server. Hardware

costs are the leasts of their costs. I imagine that your consulting

fees on testing this setup are going to be higher than the purchase

of an extra server.

And even after the accounting software has been changed into a web-

based application, they will still have those 10 thin clients who

want to run Office from the TS, correct? Chances are that by then,

they will have thought of a trillion other applications that they

also want to run on the TS.

And if they really don't need the TS function anymore after the

accounting software change, they can use the second server as a

second DC, to add redundancy. A domain with a single DC is a risk

in itself. But of course, all this depends on how big the company

is, and how much downtime of their domain they can tolerate.

 

_________________________________________________________

Vera Noest

MCSE, CCEA, Microsoft MVP - Terminal Server

TS troubleshooting: http://ts.veranoest.net

___ please respond in newsgroup, NOT by private email ___