Computer Failure

February 25, 2008

Re: Computer Failure

"MEB" wrote:

>

> "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> news:07352F95-BB00-4FB9-A0BC-8C28FE419DA7@microsoft.com...

> | "MEB", a strange thing happened after I moved the Computer and Monitor to

> | another location. I reconnected everything, powered them up and,

> | surprisingly, it did re-start. However, like before, the Monitor light

> from

> | 'green' changed to 'red' and the tower would make a clicking sound and

> no-go.

> | And, like before, I had to coordinate the timing of powering up the two

> | components in order to get the system to boot properly. However, on the

> first

> | successful boot, like before, the CD and Zip drives were not seen,

> although

> | they responded in accepting and releasing the disks. Currently, however,

> it

> | just boots up to a point where it warns that the Keyboard is not attached

> and

> | that's it. I tried another keyboard, but...no-go.

> | If I want to pursue it, I will need to disconnect all the cables, dust up

> | all that I can, re-cable all and see what happens.

> | Thank you, "MEB", but I am not sure about it all.

> |

>

> Oh, okay, then if you decide to attempt this at some future date there may

> be something else to try.

>

> As you appear to get an initial finding of the peripherals except the

> keyboard on POST you might try to refresh the BIOS with a BIOS flash for

> that motherboard. This would be accomplished with a floppy disk created to

> automatically boot and flash the motherboard. At this point it appears that

> this may be a potential fix as there have been findings related to

> successful use of this technique to reset corrupted BIOS due to electrical

> issues, spikes, etc..

>

> First, if at all possible, remove the CMOS battery for about 10 minutes to

> completely remove any old settings, re-insert after checking whether it is

> still good [generally 3+ volts] replace if needed [likely CR2032], and run

> the floppy flash disk. Remember to re-set any Bios settings if this appears

> to initially correct the issues.

>

**** ***** Are you referring to a Startup Diskette created by the OS in place?

The wording 'floppy flash disk' is not familiar to me.

> --

>

> MEB

> http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

> _________

>

> |

> | "MEB" wrote:

> |

> | >

> | > "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> | > news:618AD7DC-73EC-402E-8FD3-73D68B4BB9D5@microsoft.com...

> | > | I will need some time to digest what you are saying.

> | > | Thank you for your reply!

> | > | As far as the other machine ...it was assembled by Microtime...no

> longsr

> | > in

> | > | the area.... in 1999. A 400 MHZ. A month or so back, the color schemes

> | > began

> | > | misbehaving...at times at bootup time, later while in session. It kept

> | > | swithcing from correct shade to no color, at all. By moving the

> Monitor or

> | > | the Tower, it appeared to restore the color, but not always. I

> | > re-installed

> | > | the Video Drivers, but no go. Suspecting loose connections, I opened

> the

> | > case

> | > | and re-seated the cards and the cables attachements. That appeared to

> do

> | > some

> | > | good, but soon it started misbehaving, again.

> | >

> | > A potential cause could be the connectors. They rely upon two *fingers*

> | > inside the connecotrs for each pin, pressing upon the outside of the

> pin.

> | > The weight of the cord will over time cause these fingers to expand.[in

> | > addition to hot and cold] causing poor connections. Another would be the

> | > known value of corrosion and its effect on these same parts.

> Additionally,

> | > the monitor connectors MAY have broken their soldered connection.

> | > Another would be, particularly if the cord drapes over the back of a

> desk,

> | > the potential break of the internal wires in the cord. This also places

> | > addition stress on those connectins. Moving the computer or montitor may

> | > cause these issues to temporarily seem to be fixed.

> | >

> | > | In the meantime, the system had

> | > | stopped seeing the Iomega Zip drive and the CD Drive. Twice I reseated

> the

> | > | cables on those units (power and signal), but no go. On one occasion,

> | > while

> | > | the Computer was on, I removed the power cable of the Iomega Drive and

> | > while

> | > | re-attaching it, I must have touched a bad spot, since the power to

> the

> | > tower

> | > | was cut off. A short, perhaps. That was it!

> | >

> | > Well, depending upon how familiar you are with power supplies, you may

> have

> | > caused a short which has blown out one of the internal fuses. If you're

> | > interested, check those, IF what you're indicating is that this old

> computer

> | > will no longer start or boot..

> | >

> | > --

> | >

> | > MEB

> | > http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

> | > _________

> | >

> | > |

> | > | "letterman@invalid.com" wrote:

> | > |

> | > | > On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:20:02 -0800, BAP

> | > | > <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

> | > | >

> | > | > >For some time I have been using a Machine that has suddenly started

> | > having

> | > | > >problems and is, currently, not functioning. It had a primary and a

> | > secondary

> | > | > >Hard Disks with a lot of Data that I would like to retrieve from

> them.

> | > The

> | > | > >prinmary has the Operating System (W98SE), along with other good

> stored

> | > Data.

> | > | > >The Secondary Disk has a lot of saved information and many family

> | > photos.

> | > | > >Is there an easy way for me to install these disks on another

> machine

> | > and

> | > | > >get the info that I would like to save?

> | > | > >Yes, I will back all up on CD's, once the job is done!

> | > | > >Thank you!

> | > | >

> | > | > YES. but dont try to install them on a real new machine. Some of

> the

> | > | > computers made in the last few years dont have drivers for Win98.

> I'd

> | > | > find a machine from the same era. In other words it you had them in

> a

> | > | > 500mhz Pentium II, I'd look for something like an 800mhz Pentium II

> or

> | > | > III.

> | > | >

> | > | > I have the very same installation of Win98se that I installed in

> 1999.

> | > | > It was in a Pentium 266mhz. Since then I moved it to another

> Pentium

> | > | > 266, then to a PII 500mhz, then to a PII 800mhz, and now it's in a

> | > | > PIII 1000mhz. Every time I have had to insert the Win98 install CD

> to

> | > | > get the drivers to work with the motherboard, video card (if

> changed),

> | > | > etc....

> | > | >

> | > | > That's why I like 98. You CAN NOT do that with Win2K, XP or

> anything

> | > | > newer. From waht I know, if the XP computer dies, you either have

> to

> | > | > find an identical motherboard, or you lose all data (or have to get

> an

> | > | > expensive data retrieval company involved). For that reason, I

> won't

> | > | > even touch XP or Vista.

> | > | >

> | > | > I'm not sure of WinME allows for this or not.

> | > | >

> | > | > The whole issue comes down to the format of the hard drive. If it's

> a

> | > | > FAT32, you can still read the data, even from DOS. Actually, you

> | > | > could boot those drives from DOS and save your photos and stuff, but

> | > | > you'll lose the long filenames. (Of course they could be renamed

> back

> | > | > later if you know what to name them, and have a lot of time to

> spend).

> | > | >

> | > | > You did not say what's wrong with your computer, or what speed it

> is.

> | > | > Maybe it just needs a new Ram stick or video card or something.

> Tell

> | > | > us what's wrong.....

> | > | >

> | > | > And, YES, you could install Win98se on another computer (from

> | > | > scratch), and still plug in your secondary hard drive and you'll see

> | > | > all your data. I actually have one drive that is nothing but

> storage.

> | > | > In other words, my OS and programs are on the FIRST harddrive. My

> | > | > storage is all on a SECOND (slave) drive. I have a 3rd drive, which

> | > | > is where I moved a bunch of storage when I ran out of space on the

> | > | > regular one. I just unplugged one of the CD drives, and plugged in

> | > | > the 3rd drive, moved a bunch of stuff to drive 3, and when I was

> done,

> | > | > I unplugged it, plugged back my CD drive and put that drive in a

> safe

> | > | > place. I dont burn CDs or DVDs, I just store stuff on harddrives

> and

> | > | > have a copy of each drive as a backup. I had too many "homemade"

> CDs

> | > | > fail in the past. I dont trust them.

> | > | >

> | > | > Hope this helps.

> | > | >

> | >

>

February 25, 2008

Re: Computer Failure

"BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:73FE3E92-A8C1-4020-87B0-B34D99A99759@microsoft.com...

|

| "MEB" wrote:

|

| >

| > "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

| > news:07352F95-BB00-4FB9-A0BC-8C28FE419DA7@microsoft.com...

| > | "MEB", a strange thing happened after I moved the Computer and Monitor

to

| > | another location. I reconnected everything, powered them up and,

| > | surprisingly, it did re-start. However, like before, the Monitor

light

| > from

| > | 'green' changed to 'red' and the tower would make a clicking sound and

| > no-go.

| > | And, like before, I had to coordinate the timing of powering up the

two

| > | components in order to get the system to boot properly. However, on

the

| > first

| > | successful boot, like before, the CD and Zip drives were not seen,

| > although

| > | they responded in accepting and releasing the disks. Currently,

however,

| > it

| > | just boots up to a point where it warns that the Keyboard is not

attached

| > and

| > | that's it. I tried another keyboard, but...no-go.

| > | If I want to pursue it, I will need to disconnect all the cables, dust

up

| > | all that I can, re-cable all and see what happens.

| > | Thank you, "MEB", but I am not sure about it all.

| > |

| >

| > Oh, okay, then if you decide to attempt this at some future date there

may

| > be something else to try.

| >

| > As you appear to get an initial finding of the peripherals except the

| > keyboard on POST you might try to refresh the BIOS with a BIOS flash for

| > that motherboard. This would be accomplished with a floppy disk created

to

| > automatically boot and flash the motherboard. At this point it appears

that

| > this may be a potential fix as there have been findings related to

| > successful use of this technique to reset corrupted BIOS due to

electrical

| > issues, spikes, etc..

| >

| > First, if at all possible, remove the CMOS battery for about 10 minutes

to

| > completely remove any old settings, re-insert after checking whether it

is

| > still good [generally 3+ volts] replace if needed [likely CR2032], and

run

| > the floppy flash disk. Remember to re-set any Bios settings if this

appears

| > to initially correct the issues.

| >

|

| **** ***** Are you referring to a Startup Diskette created by the OS in

place?

| The wording 'floppy flash disk' is not familiar to me.

Yes, or one from bootdisks.com or some place.

An autoflash disk has only the basics [command.com, io.sys, etc.] and you

create an autoexec.bat to *auto run* the commandline for the flash program.

Make sure the autoexec and config sys contain nothing else, e.g., no

drivers, no directions, NOTHING except the command line necessary to flash

the BIOS.

As you're having difficulty with the keyboard, you will need to make sure

the boot block is also refreshed, and is included with the BIOS flash. Check

on the MB site for the flash tool, its command line needs, AND the proper

flash bin [or whatever it uses]. Most have a support forum so if necessary,

ask there if the particular flash contains the boot block and was not

indicated on the info for the download.

Again, make sure the autoexec then contains the command to

refresh/overwrite the boot block as the defaults may NOT include this

function, in addition to the standard updates that might be included within

the BIOS update.. MAKE SURE that the computer you make this autoflash disk

on is NOT configured to boot from the floppy to negate the potential of

flashing the wrong computer with the wrong BIOS.

After creating the autoflash disk, make sure the target computer IS

configured to boot from the floppy and has been reset to defaults [which it

will be if you removed the battery], then run the autoflash disk.

NOTE: Another suggested command line addition is to save the old BIOS prior

to the flash in case of continued issues as some sites will look at these

files and attempt to diagnose the issues. Also, make a written note of what

the present BIOS version and subversion is.

| > --

| >

| > MEB

| > _________

| > |

| > | "MEB" wrote:

| > |

| > | >

| > | > "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

| > | > news:618AD7DC-73EC-402E-8FD3-73D68B4BB9D5@microsoft.com...

| > | > | I will need some time to digest what you are saying.

| > | > | Thank you for your reply!

| > | > | As far as the other machine ...it was assembled by Microtime...no

| > longsr

| > | > in

| > | > | the area.... in 1999. A 400 MHZ. A month or so back, the color

schemes

| > | > began

| > | > | misbehaving...at times at bootup time, later while in session. It

kept

| > | > | swithcing from correct shade to no color, at all. By moving the

| > Monitor or

| > | > | the Tower, it appeared to restore the color, but not always. I

| > | > re-installed

| > | > | the Video Drivers, but no go. Suspecting loose connections, I

opened

| > the

| > | > case

| > | > | and re-seated the cards and the cables attachements. That appeared

to

| > do

| > | > some

| > | > | good, but soon it started misbehaving, again.

| > | >

| > | > A potential cause could be the connectors. They rely upon two

*fingers*

| > | > inside the connecotrs for each pin, pressing upon the outside of the

| > pin.

| > | > The weight of the cord will over time cause these fingers to

expand.[in

| > | > addition to hot and cold] causing poor connections. Another would be

the

| > | > known value of corrosion and its effect on these same parts.

| > Additionally,

| > | > the monitor connectors MAY have broken their soldered connection.

| > | > Another would be, particularly if the cord drapes over the back of

a

| > desk,

| > | > the potential break of the internal wires in the cord. This also

places

| > | > addition stress on those connectins. Moving the computer or montitor

may

| > | > cause these issues to temporarily seem to be fixed.

| > | >

| > | > | In the meantime, the system had

| > | > | stopped seeing the Iomega Zip drive and the CD Drive. Twice I

reseated

| > the

| > | > | cables on those units (power and signal), but no go. On one

occasion,

| > | > while

| > | > | the Computer was on, I removed the power cable of the Iomega Drive

and

| > | > while

| > | > | re-attaching it, I must have touched a bad spot, since the power

to

| > the

| > | > tower

| > | > | was cut off. A short, perhaps. That was it!

| > | >

| > | > Well, depending upon how familiar you are with power supplies, you

may

| > have

| > | > caused a short which has blown out one of the internal fuses. If

you're

| > | > interested, check those, IF what you're indicating is that this old

| > computer

| > | > will no longer start or boot..

| > | >

| > | > --

| > | >

| > | > MEB

| > | > _________

| > | >

| > | > |

| > | > | "letterman@invalid.com" wrote:

| > | > |

| > | > | > On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:20:02 -0800, BAP

| > | > | > <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

| > | > | >

| > | > | > >For some time I have been using a Machine that has suddenly

started

| > | > having

| > | > | > >problems and is, currently, not functioning. It had a primary

and a

| > | > secondary

| > | > | > >Hard Disks with a lot of Data that I would like to retrieve

from

| > them.

| > | > The

| > | > | > >prinmary has the Operating System (W98SE), along with other

good

| > stored

| > | > Data.

| > | > | > >The Secondary Disk has a lot of saved information and many

family

| > | > photos.

| > | > | > >Is there an easy way for me to install these disks on another

| > machine

| > | > and

| > | > | > >get the info that I would like to save?

| > | > | > >Yes, I will back all up on CD's, once the job is done!

| > | > | > >Thank you!

| > | > | >

| > | > | > YES. but dont try to install them on a real new machine. Some

of

| > the

| > | > | > computers made in the last few years dont have drivers for

Win98.

| > I'd

| > | > | > find a machine from the same era. In other words it you had

them in

| > a

| > | > | > 500mhz Pentium II, I'd look for something like an 800mhz Pentium

II

| > or

| > | > | > III.

| > | > | >

| > | > | > I have the very same installation of Win98se that I installed in

| > 1999.

| > | > | > It was in a Pentium 266mhz. Since then I moved it to another

| > Pentium

| > | > | > 266, then to a PII 500mhz, then to a PII 800mhz, and now it's in

a

| > | > | > PIII 1000mhz. Every time I have had to insert the Win98 install

CD

| > to

| > | > | > get the drivers to work with the motherboard, video card (if

| > changed),

| > | > | > etc....

| > | > | >

| > | > | > That's why I like 98. You CAN NOT do that with Win2K, XP or

| > anything

| > | > | > newer. From waht I know, if the XP computer dies, you either

have

| > to

| > | > | > find an identical motherboard, or you lose all data (or have to

get

| > an

| > | > | > expensive data retrieval company involved). For that reason, I

| > won't

| > | > | > even touch XP or Vista.

| > | > | >

| > | > | > I'm not sure of WinME allows for this or not.

| > | > | >

| > | > | > The whole issue comes down to the format of the hard drive. If

it's

| > a

| > | > | > FAT32, you can still read the data, even from DOS. Actually,

you

| > | > | > could boot those drives from DOS and save your photos and stuff,

but

| > | > | > you'll lose the long filenames. (Of course they could be

renamed

| > back

| > | > | > later if you know what to name them, and have a lot of time to

| > spend).

| > | > | >

| > | > | > You did not say what's wrong with your computer, or what speed

it

| > is.

| > | > | > Maybe it just needs a new Ram stick or video card or something.

| > Tell

| > | > | > us what's wrong.....

| > | > | >

| > | > | > And, YES, you could install Win98se on another computer (from

| > | > | > scratch), and still plug in your secondary hard drive and you'll

see

| > | > | > all your data. I actually have one drive that is nothing but

| > storage.

| > | > | > In other words, my OS and programs are on the FIRST harddrive.

My

| > | > | > storage is all on a SECOND (slave) drive. I have a 3rd drive,

which

| > | > | > is where I moved a bunch of storage when I ran out of space on

the

| > | > | > regular one. I just unplugged one of the CD drives, and plugged

in

| > | > | > the 3rd drive, moved a bunch of stuff to drive 3, and when I was

| > done,

| > | > | > I unplugged it, plugged back my CD drive and put that drive in a

| > safe

| > | > | > place. I dont burn CDs or DVDs, I just store stuff on

harddrives

| > and

| > | > | > have a copy of each drive as a backup. I had too many

"homemade"

| > CDs

| > | > | > fail in the past. I dont trust them.

| > | > | >

| > | > | > Hope this helps.

--

MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

_________

February 25, 2008

Re: Computer Failure

Oh, I should have made this statement earlier:

SRTSP

- PRIOR to flashing the BIOS -

You DID indicate that moving the computer around seemed to temporarily fix

the computer, so EVEN THOUGH the visual inspection might seem to indicate

the cables, connectors, and other are good, completely remove power from the

board/computer and if at all possible, replace with different cables and

such to negate potential breaks, bad connections or other.

Wiggle or physically remove and clean [pencil eraser] any internal cards

connections; the processor [if slot1]; memory chips; etc.. Use a SAFE spray

cleaner [contains no oils or leaves residue] or de-natured alcohol and

q-tips (or something) to clean the slots [make sure no threads/fibers are

left].

MAKE SURE that the board is 'completely dried' before re-assembling then

carefully wiggle the re-installed cards to ensure proper connections, and

only then re-applying power.

IF checking all this and flashing the BIOS does fix the computer, go back

through and clean the heatsinks and fans and oil any fan bearings, replace

the heat sink compound for the processor and chips {if applicable} if

possible {something like Arctic Silver}, and prep the computer for another

few years of use.

--

MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

_________

"MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:uSJ6Md8dIHA.4260@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

|

| "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

| news:73FE3E92-A8C1-4020-87B0-B34D99A99759@microsoft.com...

| |

| | "MEB" wrote:

| |

| | >

| | > "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

| | > news:07352F95-BB00-4FB9-A0BC-8C28FE419DA7@microsoft.com...

| | > | "MEB", a strange thing happened after I moved the Computer and

Monitor

| to

| | > | another location. I reconnected everything, powered them up and,

| | > | surprisingly, it did re-start. However, like before, the Monitor

| light

| | > from

| | > | 'green' changed to 'red' and the tower would make a clicking sound

and

| | > no-go.

| | > | And, like before, I had to coordinate the timing of powering up the

| two

| | > | components in order to get the system to boot properly. However, on

| the

| | > first

| | > | successful boot, like before, the CD and Zip drives were not seen,

| | > although

| | > | they responded in accepting and releasing the disks. Currently,

| however,

| | > it

| | > | just boots up to a point where it warns that the Keyboard is not

| attached

| | > and

| | > | that's it. I tried another keyboard, but...no-go.

| | > | If I want to pursue it, I will need to disconnect all the cables,

dust

| up

| | > | all that I can, re-cable all and see what happens.

| | > | Thank you, "MEB", but I am not sure about it all.

| | > |

| | >

| | > Oh, okay, then if you decide to attempt this at some future date

there

| may

| | > be something else to try.

| | >

| | > As you appear to get an initial finding of the peripherals except the

| | > keyboard on POST you might try to refresh the BIOS with a BIOS flash

for

| | > that motherboard. This would be accomplished with a floppy disk

created

| to

| | > automatically boot and flash the motherboard. At this point it appears

| that

| | > this may be a potential fix as there have been findings related to

| | > successful use of this technique to reset corrupted BIOS due to

| electrical

| | > issues, spikes, etc..

| | >

| | > First, if at all possible, remove the CMOS battery for about 10

minutes

| to

| | > completely remove any old settings, re-insert after checking whether

it

| is

| | > still good [generally 3+ volts] replace if needed [likely CR2032], and

| run

| | > the floppy flash disk. Remember to re-set any Bios settings if this

| appears

| | > to initially correct the issues.

| | >

| |

| | **** ***** Are you referring to a Startup Diskette created by the OS in

| place?

| | The wording 'floppy flash disk' is not familiar to me.

|

| Yes, or one from bootdisks.com or some place.

| An autoflash disk has only the basics [command.com, io.sys, etc.] and you

| create an autoexec.bat to *auto run* the commandline for the flash

program.

| Make sure the autoexec and config sys contain nothing else, e.g., no

| drivers, no directions, NOTHING except the command line necessary to flash

| the BIOS.

| As you're having difficulty with the keyboard, you will need to make sure

| the boot block is also refreshed, and is included with the BIOS flash.

Check

| on the MB site for the flash tool, its command line needs, AND the proper

| flash bin [or whatever it uses]. Most have a support forum so if

necessary,

| ask there if the particular flash contains the boot block and was not

| indicated on the info for the download.

| Again, make sure the autoexec then contains the command to

| refresh/overwrite the boot block as the defaults may NOT include this

| function, in addition to the standard updates that might be included

within

| the BIOS update.. MAKE SURE that the computer you make this autoflash disk

| on is NOT configured to boot from the floppy to negate the potential of

| flashing the wrong computer with the wrong BIOS.

| After creating the autoflash disk, make sure the target computer IS

| configured to boot from the floppy and has been reset to defaults [which

it

| will be if you removed the battery], then run the autoflash disk.

|

| NOTE: Another suggested command line addition is to save the old BIOS

prior

| to the flash in case of continued issues as some sites will look at these

| files and attempt to diagnose the issues. Also, make a written note of

what

| the present BIOS version and subversion is.

|

| | > --

| | >

| | > MEB

| | > _________

| | > |

| | > | "MEB" wrote:

| | > |

| | > | >

| | > | > "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

| | > | > news:618AD7DC-73EC-402E-8FD3-73D68B4BB9D5@microsoft.com...

| | > | > | I will need some time to digest what you are saying.

| | > | > | Thank you for your reply!

| | > | > | As far as the other machine ...it was assembled by

Microtime...no

| | > longsr

| | > | > in

| | > | > | the area.... in 1999. A 400 MHZ. A month or so back, the color

| schemes

| | > | > began

| | > | > | misbehaving...at times at bootup time, later while in session.

It

| kept

| | > | > | swithcing from correct shade to no color, at all. By moving the

| | > Monitor or

| | > | > | the Tower, it appeared to restore the color, but not always. I

| | > | > re-installed

| | > | > | the Video Drivers, but no go. Suspecting loose connections, I

| opened

| | > the

| | > | > case

| | > | > | and re-seated the cards and the cables attachements. That

appeared

| to

| | > do

| | > | > some

| | > | > | good, but soon it started misbehaving, again.

| | > | >

| | > | > A potential cause could be the connectors. They rely upon two

| *fingers*

| | > | > inside the connecotrs for each pin, pressing upon the outside of

the

| | > pin.

| | > | > The weight of the cord will over time cause these fingers to

| expand.[in

| | > | > addition to hot and cold] causing poor connections. Another would

be

| the

| | > | > known value of corrosion and its effect on these same parts.

| | > Additionally,

| | > | > the monitor connectors MAY have broken their soldered connection.

| | > | > Another would be, particularly if the cord drapes over the back

of

| a

| | > desk,

| | > | > the potential break of the internal wires in the cord. This also

| places

| | > | > addition stress on those connectins. Moving the computer or

montitor

| may

| | > | > cause these issues to temporarily seem to be fixed.

| | > | >

| | > | > | In the meantime, the system had

| | > | > | stopped seeing the Iomega Zip drive and the CD Drive. Twice I

| reseated

| | > the

| | > | > | cables on those units (power and signal), but no go. On one

| occasion,

| | > | > while

| | > | > | the Computer was on, I removed the power cable of the Iomega

Drive

| and

| | > | > while

| | > | > | re-attaching it, I must have touched a bad spot, since the power

| to

| | > the

| | > | > tower

| | > | > | was cut off. A short, perhaps. That was it!

| | > | >

| | > | > Well, depending upon how familiar you are with power supplies,

you

| may

| | > have

| | > | > caused a short which has blown out one of the internal fuses. If

| you're

| | > | > interested, check those, IF what you're indicating is that this

old

| | > computer

| | > | > will no longer start or boot..

| | > | >

| | > | > --

| | > | >

| | > | > MEB

| | > | > _________

| | > | >

| | > | > |

| | > | > | "letterman@invalid.com" wrote:

| | > | > |

| | > | > | > On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:20:02 -0800, BAP

| | > | > | > <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

| | > | > | >

| | > | > | > >For some time I have been using a Machine that has suddenly

| started

| | > | > having

| | > | > | > >problems and is, currently, not functioning. It had a primary

| and a

| | > | > secondary

| | > | > | > >Hard Disks with a lot of Data that I would like to retrieve

| from

| | > them.

| | > | > The

| | > | > | > >prinmary has the Operating System (W98SE), along with other

| good

| | > stored

| | > | > Data.

| | > | > | > >The Secondary Disk has a lot of saved information and many

| family

| | > | > photos.

| | > | > | > >Is there an easy way for me to install these disks on another

| | > machine

| | > | > and

| | > | > | > >get the info that I would like to save?

| | > | > | > >Yes, I will back all up on CD's, once the job is done!

| | > | > | > >Thank you!

| | > | > | >

| | > | > | > YES. but dont try to install them on a real new machine.

Some

| of

| | > the

| | > | > | > computers made in the last few years dont have drivers for

| Win98.

| | > I'd

| | > | > | > find a machine from the same era. In other words it you had

| them in

| | > a

| | > | > | > 500mhz Pentium II, I'd look for something like an 800mhz

Pentium

| II

| | > or

| | > | > | > III.

| | > | > | >

| | > | > | > I have the very same installation of Win98se that I installed

in

| | > 1999.

| | > | > | > It was in a Pentium 266mhz. Since then I moved it to another

| | > Pentium

| | > | > | > 266, then to a PII 500mhz, then to a PII 800mhz, and now it's

in

| a

| | > | > | > PIII 1000mhz. Every time I have had to insert the Win98

install

| CD

| | > to

| | > | > | > get the drivers to work with the motherboard, video card (if

| | > changed),

| | > | > | > etc....

| | > | > | >

| | > | > | > That's why I like 98. You CAN NOT do that with Win2K, XP or

| | > anything

| | > | > | > newer. From waht I know, if the XP computer dies, you either

| have

| | > to

| | > | > | > find an identical motherboard, or you lose all data (or have

to

| get

| | > an

| | > | > | > expensive data retrieval company involved). For that reason,

I

| | > won't

| | > | > | > even touch XP or Vista.

| | > | > | >

| | > | > | > I'm not sure of WinME allows for this or not.

| | > | > | >

| | > | > | > The whole issue comes down to the format of the hard drive.

If

| it's

| | > a

| | > | > | > FAT32, you can still read the data, even from DOS. Actually,

| you

| | > | > | > could boot those drives from DOS and save your photos and

stuff,

| but

| | > | > | > you'll lose the long filenames. (Of course they could be

| renamed

| | > back

| | > | > | > later if you know what to name them, and have a lot of time to

| | > spend).

| | > | > | >

| | > | > | > You did not say what's wrong with your computer, or what speed

| it

| | > is.

| | > | > | > Maybe it just needs a new Ram stick or video card or

something.

| | > Tell

| | > | > | > us what's wrong.....

| | > | > | >

| | > | > | > And, YES, you could install Win98se on another computer (from

| | > | > | > scratch), and still plug in your secondary hard drive and

you'll

| see

| | > | > | > all your data. I actually have one drive that is nothing but

| | > storage.

| | > | > | > In other words, my OS and programs are on the FIRST harddrive.

| My

| | > | > | > storage is all on a SECOND (slave) drive. I have a 3rd drive,

| which

| | > | > | > is where I moved a bunch of storage when I ran out of space on

| the

| | > | > | > regular one. I just unplugged one of the CD drives, and

plugged

| in

| | > | > | > the 3rd drive, moved a bunch of stuff to drive 3, and when I

was

| | > done,

| | > | > | > I unplugged it, plugged back my CD drive and put that drive in

a

| | > safe

| | > | > | > place. I dont burn CDs or DVDs, I just store stuff on

| harddrives

| | > and

| | > | > | > have a copy of each drive as a backup. I had too many

| "homemade"

| | > CDs

| | > | > | > fail in the past. I dont trust them.

| | > | > | >

| | > | > | > Hope this helps.

|

| --

|

| MEB

| http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

| _________

|

February 25, 2008

Re: Computer Failure

"MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:OYNYXYxdIHA.6136@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>

> | > The repair install for XP would potentially work for what, only a set

> | > number of key elements replaced, beyond that and you will be required to

> get

> | > an authorization/activation, which, after support ends, ...... then

> what?

>

> Here is the nagging question and the *reluctance point*/argue point found

> [even by XP and VISTA users] related to the continued usability of the newer

> OSs after their support life ends. I generally see the standard "well if you

> don't change to much, there will be no issues" as a response in

> forums/discussions where the issue has been raised. But that does not answer

> the question [okay, I admit I have recently dropped monitoring the XP/VISTA

> newsgroups].

>

> | > OR, as I questioned, did Microsoft remove that requirement and the

> related

> | > *kill* in-built within XP and VISTA? {and yes I know there are

> questionable

> | > non-authorized methods available to achieve this]

>

> Again, this issue sticks in the craw of many users of Microsoft products.

> The kill off of the OS if at some point activations are no longer offered.

Since it appears to me that your main concerns are product activation after end of

support, I understand the concern and have no answer on how it will be addressed.

Not because I can't say but because I don't know. I'd like to look at it in a

optimist way in thinking activation will remain automatic online but may be pay by

phone support, that's at least better than no support for re/activation.

--

Brian A. Sesko { MS MVP_Windows Desktop User Experience }

Conflicts start where information lacks.

http://basconotw.mvps.org/

Suggested posting do's/don'ts: http://www.dts-l.org/goodpost.htm

How to ask a question: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375

February 25, 2008

Re: Computer Failure

"Brian A." <gonefish'n@afarawaylake> wrote in message

news:uGNGXQ$dIHA.5984@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

| "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

| news:OYNYXYxdIHA.6136@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

| >

| > | > The repair install for XP would potentially work for what, only a

set

| > | > number of key elements replaced, beyond that and you will be

required to

| > get

| > | > an authorization/activation, which, after support ends, ...... then

| > what?

| >

| > Here is the nagging question and the *reluctance point*/argue point

found

| > [even by XP and VISTA users] related to the continued usability of the

newer

| > OSs after their support life ends. I generally see the standard "well if

you

| > don't change to much, there will be no issues" as a response in

| > forums/discussions where the issue has been raised. But that does not

answer

| > the question [okay, I admit I have recently dropped monitoring the

XP/VISTA

| > newsgroups].

| >

| > | > OR, as I questioned, did Microsoft remove that requirement and the

| > related

| > | > *kill* in-built within XP and VISTA? {and yes I know there are

| > questionable

| > | > non-authorized methods available to achieve this]

| >

| > Again, this issue sticks in the craw of many users of Microsoft

products.

| > The kill off of the OS if at some point activations are no longer

offered.

|

| Since it appears to me that your main concerns are product activation

after end of

| support, I understand the concern and have no answer on how it will be

addressed.

| Not because I can't say but because I don't know. I'd like to look at it

in a

| optimist way in thinking activation will remain automatic online but may

be pay by

| phone support, that's at least better than no support for re/activation.

|

| --

|

| Brian A. Sesko { MS MVP_Windows Desktop User Experience }

| Conflicts start where information lacks.

| http://basconotw.mvps.org/

|

Right, this seems to be the sticking point with many. Whether or not there

will be some way in the future to use XP or even Vista should re-activation

be required. With the increased OS creation scheme now employed by Microsoft

it seems reasonable to question continued use...

--

MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

_________

February 27, 2008

Re: Computer Failure

"MEB" wrote:

>

> "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> news:73FE3E92-A8C1-4020-87B0-B34D99A99759@microsoft.com...

> |

> | "MEB" wrote:

> |

> | >

> | > "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> | > news:07352F95-BB00-4FB9-A0BC-8C28FE419DA7@microsoft.com...

> | > | "MEB", a strange thing happened after I moved the Computer and Monitor

> to

> | > | another location. I reconnected everything, powered them up and,

> | > | surprisingly, it did re-start. However, like before, the Monitor

> light

> | > from

> | > | 'green' changed to 'red' and the tower would make a clicking sound and

> | > no-go.

> | > | And, like before, I had to coordinate the timing of powering up the

> two

> | > | components in order to get the system to boot properly. However, on

> the

> | > first

> | > | successful boot, like before, the CD and Zip drives were not seen,

> | > although

> | > | they responded in accepting and releasing the disks. Currently,

> however,

> | > it

> | > | just boots up to a point where it warns that the Keyboard is not

> attached

> | > and

> | > | that's it. I tried another keyboard, but...no-go.

> | > | If I want to pursue it, I will need to disconnect all the cables, dust

> up

> | > | all that I can, re-cable all and see what happens.

> | > | Thank you, "MEB", but I am not sure about it all.

> | > |

> | >

> | > Oh, okay, then if you decide to attempt this at some future date there

> may

> | > be something else to try.

> | >

> | > As you appear to get an initial finding of the peripherals except the

> | > keyboard on POST you might try to refresh the BIOS with a BIOS flash for

> | > that motherboard. This would be accomplished with a floppy disk created

> to

> | > automatically boot and flash the motherboard. At this point it appears

> that

> | > this may be a potential fix as there have been findings related to

> | > successful use of this technique to reset corrupted BIOS due to

> electrical

> | > issues, spikes, etc..

> | >

> | > First, if at all possible, remove the CMOS battery for about 10 minutes

> to

> | > completely remove any old settings, re-insert after checking whether it

> is

> | > still good [generally 3+ volts] replace if needed [likely CR2032], and

> run

> | > the floppy flash disk. Remember to re-set any Bios settings if this

> appears

> | > to initially correct the issues.

> | >

> |

> | **** ***** Are you referring to a Startup Diskette created by the OS in

> place?

> | The wording 'floppy flash disk' is not familiar to me.

>

> Yes, or one from bootdisks.com or some place.

> An autoflash disk has only the basics [command.com, io.sys, etc.] and you

> create an autoexec.bat to *auto run* the commandline for the flash program.

> Make sure the autoexec and config sys contain nothing else, e.g., no

> drivers, no directions, NOTHING except the command line necessary to flash

> the BIOS.

> As you're having difficulty with the keyboard, you will need to make sure

> the boot block is also refreshed, and is included with the BIOS flash. Check

> on the MB site for the flash tool, its command line needs, AND the proper

> flash bin [or whatever it uses]. Most have a support forum so if necessary,

> ask there if the particular flash contains the boot block and was not

> indicated on the info for the download.

> Again, make sure the autoexec then contains the command to

> refresh/overwrite the boot block as the defaults may NOT include this

> function, in addition to the standard updates that might be included within

> the BIOS update.. MAKE SURE that the computer you make this autoflash disk

> on is NOT configured to boot from the floppy to negate the potential of

> flashing the wrong computer with the wrong BIOS.

> After creating the autoflash disk, make sure the target computer IS

> configured to boot from the floppy and has been reset to defaults [which it

> will be if you removed the battery], then run the autoflash disk.

>

> NOTE: Another suggested command line addition is to save the old BIOS prior

> to the flash in case of continued issues as some sites will look at these

> files and attempt to diagnose the issues. Also, make a written note of what

> the present BIOS version and subversion is.

>

****"MEB", I can never seem to get to a point where the Startup Disk

becomes active. The Keyboard being a problem, I can't use any of its keys to

make respond to any command, like a CTRL or DEL or F1. Eventually, the warnig

comes up:

' Keyboard Error or bo Keyboard. Keyboard is locked out - Unlock it.

CMOS Checksum Error - Defaults loaded' ...followed by a flashing dash and

that is all. As for saving the BIOS, I am at a loss.

I am currently spending some time with an old machine with 3.1 Version of

the Operating System. It still works. When I connect a second HD according to

rules, it detects it while booting, but it does not show when I check on the

available drives.

By pressing DEL and getting on the Setup Mode, I see the option of setting

the Primary Master, Secondary Master, Primary Slave and Secondary Slave...( I

need to take another look to insure of what I am saying).

The first Screen shows info about the Primary Master:

The first Option is: 2(Y)- Size: 1622- Cyls: 786- Head: 64- Precomp: 0-

Landz: 3144- Sector: 63- Mode: LBA

The next option is, respectively: 1- 1623- 3145- 16- 65535- 3144- 63- Normal

The next is, respectively: 3- 1622- 786- 64- 65535- 3144- 63- Large

If I skip that step, the next screens shows blanks except for the options.

Needless to say....it is confusing and I just skip all.

My best choice would be to hook up the Hard Disks with from the troubled

Computer to the one I am currently using...newest one..., if I really want to

get the stored Data from them.

Thank you, for your time!

> | > --

> | >

> | > MEB

> | > _________

> | > |

> | > | "MEB" wrote:

> | > |

> | > | >

> | > | > "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> | > | > news:618AD7DC-73EC-402E-8FD3-73D68B4BB9D5@microsoft.com...

> | > | > | I will need some time to digest what you are saying.

> | > | > | Thank you for your reply!

> | > | > | As far as the other machine ...it was assembled by Microtime...no

> | > longsr

> | > | > in

> | > | > | the area.... in 1999. A 400 MHZ. A month or so back, the color

> schemes

> | > | > began

> | > | > | misbehaving...at times at bootup time, later while in session. It

> kept

> | > | > | swithcing from correct shade to no color, at all. By moving the

> | > Monitor or

> | > | > | the Tower, it appeared to restore the color, but not always. I

> | > | > re-installed

> | > | > | the Video Drivers, but no go. Suspecting loose connections, I

> opened

> | > the

> | > | > case

> | > | > | and re-seated the cards and the cables attachements. That appeared

> to

> | > do

> | > | > some

> | > | > | good, but soon it started misbehaving, again.

> | > | >

> | > | > A potential cause could be the connectors. They rely upon two

> *fingers*

> | > | > inside the connecotrs for each pin, pressing upon the outside of the

> | > pin.

> | > | > The weight of the cord will over time cause these fingers to

> expand.[in

> | > | > addition to hot and cold] causing poor connections. Another would be

> the

> | > | > known value of corrosion and its effect on these same parts.

> | > Additionally,

> | > | > the monitor connectors MAY have broken their soldered connection.

> | > | > Another would be, particularly if the cord drapes over the back of

> a

> | > desk,

> | > | > the potential break of the internal wires in the cord. This also

> places

> | > | > addition stress on those connectins. Moving the computer or montitor

> may

> | > | > cause these issues to temporarily seem to be fixed.

> | > | >

> | > | > | In the meantime, the system had

> | > | > | stopped seeing the Iomega Zip drive and the CD Drive. Twice I

> reseated

> | > the

> | > | > | cables on those units (power and signal), but no go. On one

> occasion,

> | > | > while

> | > | > | the Computer was on, I removed the power cable of the Iomega Drive

> and

> | > | > while

> | > | > | re-attaching it, I must have touched a bad spot, since the power

> to

> | > the

> | > | > tower

> | > | > | was cut off. A short, perhaps. That was it!

> | > | >

> | > | > Well, depending upon how familiar you are with power supplies, you

> may

> | > have

> | > | > caused a short which has blown out one of the internal fuses. If

> you're

> | > | > interested, check those, IF what you're indicating is that this old

> | > computer

> | > | > will no longer start or boot..

> | > | >

> | > | > --

> | > | >

> | > | > MEB

> | > | > _________

> | > | >

> | > | > |

> | > | > | "letterman@invalid.com" wrote:

> | > | > |

> | > | > | > On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:20:02 -0800, BAP

> | > | > | > <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

> | > | > | >

> | > | > | > >For some time I have been using a Machine that has suddenly

> started

> | > | > having

> | > | > | > >problems and is, currently, not functioning. It had a primary

> and a

> | > | > secondary

> | > | > | > >Hard Disks with a lot of Data that I would like to retrieve

> from

> | > them.

> | > | > The

> | > | > | > >prinmary has the Operating System (W98SE), along with other

> good

> | > stored

> | > | > Data.

> | > | > | > >The Secondary Disk has a lot of saved information and many

> family

> | > | > photos.

> | > | > | > >Is there an easy way for me to install these disks on another

> | > machine

> | > | > and

> | > | > | > >get the info that I would like to save?

> | > | > | > >Yes, I will back all up on CD's, once the job is done!

> | > | > | > >Thank you!

> | > | > | >

> | > | > | > YES. but dont try to install them on a real new machine. Some

> of

> | > the

> | > | > | > computers made in the last few years dont have drivers for

> Win98.

> | > I'd

> | > | > | > find a machine from the same era. In other words it you had

> them in

> | > a

> | > | > | > 500mhz Pentium II, I'd look for something like an 800mhz Pentium

> II

> | > or

> | > | > | > III.

> | > | > | >

> | > | > | > I have the very same installation of Win98se that I installed in

> | > 1999.

> | > | > | > It was in a Pentium 266mhz. Since then I moved it to another

> | > Pentium

> | > | > | > 266, then to a PII 500mhz, then to a PII 800mhz, and now it's in

> a

> | > | > | > PIII 1000mhz. Every time I have had to insert the Win98 install

> CD

> | > to

> | > | > | > get the drivers to work with the motherboard, video card (if

> | > changed),

> | > | > | > etc....

> | > | > | >

> | > | > | > That's why I like 98. You CAN NOT do that with Win2K, XP or

> | > anything

> | > | > | > newer. From waht I know, if the XP computer dies, you either

> have

> | > to

> | > | > | > find an identical motherboard, or you lose all data (or have to

> get

> | > an

> | > | > | > expensive data retrieval company involved). For that reason, I

> | > won't

> | > | > | > even touch XP or Vista.

> | > | > | >

> | > | > | > I'm not sure of WinME allows for this or not.

> | > | > | >

> | > | > | > The whole issue comes down to the format of the hard drive. If

> it's

> | > a

> | > | > | > FAT32, you can still read the data, even from DOS. Actually,

> you

> | > | > | > could boot those drives from DOS and save your photos and stuff,

> but

> | > | > | > you'll lose the long filenames. (Of course they could be

> renamed

> | > back

> | > | > | > later if you know what to name them, and have a lot of time to

> | > spend).

> | > | > | >

> | > | > | > You did not say what's wrong with your computer, or what speed

> it

> | > is.

> | > | > | > Maybe it just needs a new Ram stick or video card or something.

> | > Tell

> | > | > | > us what's wrong.....

> | > | > | >

> | > | > | > And, YES, you could install Win98se on another computer (from

> | > | > | > scratch), and still plug in your secondary hard drive and you'll

> see

> | > | > | > all your data. I actually have one drive that is nothing but

> | > storage.

> | > | > | > In other words, my OS and programs are on the FIRST harddrive.

> My

> | > | > | > storage is all on a SECOND (slave) drive. I have a 3rd drive,

> which

> | > | > | > is where I moved a bunch of storage when I ran out of space on

> the

> | > | > | > regular one. I just unplugged one of the CD drives, and plugged

> in

> | > | > | > the 3rd drive, moved a bunch of stuff to drive 3, and when I was

> | > done,

> | > | > | > I unplugged it, plugged back my CD drive and put that drive in a

> | > safe

> | > | > | > place. I dont burn CDs or DVDs, I just store stuff on

> harddrives

> | > and

> | > | > | > have a copy of each drive as a backup. I had too many

> "homemade"

> | > CDs

> | > | > | > fail in the past. I dont trust them.

> | > | > | >

> | > | > | > Hope this helps.

>

February 27, 2008

Re: Computer Failure

INLINE, Read carefully and completely before changing anything.

"BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:5A0BB68D-447F-46E3-9398-683F0CD3B42F@microsoft.com...

|

| "MEB" wrote:

|

| >

| > "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

| > news:73FE3E92-A8C1-4020-87B0-B34D99A99759@microsoft.com...

| > |

| > | "MEB" wrote:

| > |

| > | >

| > | > "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

| > | > news:07352F95-BB00-4FB9-A0BC-8C28FE419DA7@microsoft.com...

| > | > | "MEB", a strange thing happened after I moved the Computer and

Monitor

| > to

| > | > | another location. I reconnected everything, powered them up and,

| > | > | surprisingly, it did re-start. However, like before, the Monitor

| > light

| > | > from

| > | > | 'green' changed to 'red' and the tower would make a clicking sound

and

| > | > no-go.

| > | > | And, like before, I had to coordinate the timing of powering up

the

| > two

| > | > | components in order to get the system to boot properly. However,

on

| > the

| > | > first

| > | > | successful boot, like before, the CD and Zip drives were not seen,

| > | > although

| > | > | they responded in accepting and releasing the disks. Currently,

| > however,

| > | > it

| > | > | just boots up to a point where it warns that the Keyboard is not

| > attached

| > | > and

| > | > | that's it. I tried another keyboard, but...no-go.

| > | > | If I want to pursue it, I will need to disconnect all the cables,

dust

| > up

| > | > | all that I can, re-cable all and see what happens.

| > | > | Thank you, "MEB", but I am not sure about it all.

| > | > |

| > | >

| > | > Oh, okay, then if you decide to attempt this at some future date

there

| > may

| > | > be something else to try.

| > | >

| > | > As you appear to get an initial finding of the peripherals except

the

| > | > keyboard on POST you might try to refresh the BIOS with a BIOS flash

for

| > | > that motherboard. This would be accomplished with a floppy disk

created

| > to

| > | > automatically boot and flash the motherboard. At this point it

appears

| > that

| > | > this may be a potential fix as there have been findings related to

| > | > successful use of this technique to reset corrupted BIOS due to

| > electrical

| > | > issues, spikes, etc..

| > | >

| > | > First, if at all possible, remove the CMOS battery for about 10

minutes

| > to

| > | > completely remove any old settings, re-insert after checking whether

it

| > is

| > | > still good [generally 3+ volts] replace if needed [likely CR2032],

and

| > run

| > | > the floppy flash disk. Remember to re-set any Bios settings if this

| > appears

| > | > to initially correct the issues.

| > | >

| > |

| > | **** ***** Are you referring to a Startup Diskette created by the OS

in

| > place?

| > | The wording 'floppy flash disk' is not familiar to me.

| >

| > Yes, or one from bootdisks.com or some place.

| > An autoflash disk has only the basics [command.com, io.sys, etc.] and

you

| > create an autoexec.bat to *auto run* the commandline for the flash

program.

| > Make sure the autoexec and config sys contain nothing else, e.g., no

| > drivers, no directions, NOTHING except the command line necessary to

flash

| > the BIOS.

| > As you're having difficulty with the keyboard, you will need to make

sure

| > the boot block is also refreshed, and is included with the BIOS flash.

Check

| > on the MB site for the flash tool, its command line needs, AND the

proper

| > flash bin [or whatever it uses]. Most have a support forum so if

necessary,

| > ask there if the particular flash contains the boot block and was not

| > indicated on the info for the download.

| > Again, make sure the autoexec then contains the command to

| > refresh/overwrite the boot block as the defaults may NOT include this

| > function, in addition to the standard updates that might be included

within

| > the BIOS update.. MAKE SURE that the computer you make this autoflash

disk

| > on is NOT configured to boot from the floppy to negate the potential of

| > flashing the wrong computer with the wrong BIOS.

| > After creating the autoflash disk, make sure the target computer IS

| > configured to boot from the floppy and has been reset to defaults [which

it

| > will be if you removed the battery], then run the autoflash disk.

| >

| > NOTE: Another suggested command line addition is to save the old BIOS

prior

| > to the flash in case of continued issues as some sites will look at

these

| > files and attempt to diagnose the issues. Also, make a written note of

what

| > the present BIOS version and subversion is.

| >

|

| ?****"MEB", I can never seem to get to a point where the Startup Disk

| becomes active. The Keyboard being a problem, I can't use any of its keys

to

| make respond to any command, like a CTRL or DEL or F1. Eventually, the

warnig

| comes up:

| ' Keyboard Error or bo Keyboard. Keyboard is locked out - Unlock it.

| CMOS Checksum Error - Defaults loaded' ...followed by a flashing dash and

| that is all. As for saving the BIOS, I am at a loss.

Oh, here's something I haven't thought of in awhile... does this computer

have an actual KEYED lock on it anywhere?

| I am currently spending some time with an old machine with 3.1 Version of

| the Operating System. It still works. When I connect a second HD according

to

| rules, it detects it while booting, but it does not show when I check on

the

| available drives.

Okay, make sure to read this whole response before trying anything. As the

computer is running 3.1, it may be older and what would be used on newer

boards may not be proper for an old DOS based computer.

| By pressing DEL and getting on the Setup Mode, I see the option of setting

| the Primary Master, Secondary Master, Primary Slave and Secondary

Slave...( I

| need to take another look to insure of what I am saying).

| The first Screen shows info about the Primary Master:

| The first Option is: 2(Y)- Size: 1622- Cyls: 786- Head: 64- Precomp: 0-

| Landz: 3144- Sector: 63- Mode: LBA

Okay, perhaps you had best post the make and model of this other/older

computer, or motherboard and BIOS {preferably} before going much farther

with this..Hard drive makes and models as well.

Here's some general info:

Okay, you're apparently using the hard drive detection pane, the first

option is marked (Y) meaning best choice, so yes use that, but ONLY if that

is what it was already set at. You check that by going into the standard

setup page/pane [usually the first unless you have Soft Menu or the like]

and seeing what might be there for the hard drives. This is generally the

page where you also setup the clock, floppy disks, and errors. Write down

what is presently shown.

IF the original hard drive shows any numbers like you posted, then the

drive was either manually set or the hard drive detection pane was used to

set the properties. These are the numbers you should use when in the hard

drive detection pane, or just bypass its setup screen, moving on to the

second drive.

IF this is the case, then these numbers should be used when re-checking

through the hard drive detection pane or there is a risk of translation

change and you may trash the data on that disk when the computer starts.

You've posted what the detection screen shows so find the one which matches.

| The next option is, respectively: 1- 1623- 3145- 16- 65535- 3144- 63-

Normal

| The next is, respectively: 3- 1622- 786- 64- 65535- 3144- 63- Large

| If I skip that step, the next screens shows blanks except for the options.

If you are using the autosetup/hard drive detection in the BIOS and it is

NOT finding the second drive, then perhaps you have failed to properly set

the hard drive jumpers to act as it should, or the hard drive is unsupported

[to old for auto detection as its on-board chip does not return the

information], OR the drive has completely failed. However, for this to work

and be checked, the drives MUST be properly configured and jumpered.

IF the drives are on ONE cable, the first is master (the one the detection

wants you to pick yes for, e.g., the one originally in the computer) and its

jumpers shouild be set that way. The second drive MUST have its jumper set

for slave.

IF, on the other hand, the drives are on TWO separate cables, both must be

set as masters with their jumpers [presuming that these are the only two

drives, i.e., there is no CDROM drive]. IF there is a CD drive, and a hard

drive and CD share the cable, then the hard drive is generally set as the

master and the CD as slave.

IF. the second drive is not being detected and its jumpers and cable are

correct, then it is still possible the drive is not detectable, and must be

manually set. That can only be accomplished by finding the actual model and

make of the hard drive. I have a few older hard drives lists, so if

necessary these settings can likely be found if this is one of those older

drives..

HAVING indicated the cabling and jumpers:

IF the drives are on two separate cables and you use the hard drive

detection, then after the first screen shows the first/master found drive,

the second would show nothing as there is no second drive on that channel.

Passing that screen would take you to the second IDE channel with the second

drive.

| Needless to say....it is confusing and I just skip all.

| My best choice would be to hook up the Hard Disks with from the troubled

| Computer to the one I am currently using...newest one..., if I really want

to

| get the stored Data from them.

| Thank you, for your time!

|

Not necessarily. Depending upon the age and make of the various

computers/motherboards/BIOS, one may be closer to the one which originally

held the problem/target disks. I say this because of potential translation

issues, and potential hard drive overlays. The older the computer and/or

disk, the more you may encounter these issues.

--

MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

_________

February 28, 2008

Re: Computer Failure

***"

MEB", regarding the KEYED lock, there is one, but I have no key for it.

Besides, how can it suddenly lock itself out? There is a center post and an

outer ring with two small cut out slots...left and right. The arrow on the

center post points to the right one.

Also, before getting covering all the steps you have suggested I take (which

will take a bit time to figure out and precede), I have to apologize in

mistakenly saying something about the old computer on which I am trying to

hook the HD's from the failed Computer. I have stated that thesystem, while

booting, detects the presence of the Data storage HD hooked up to it. That

was wrong!

I decided to hit the Pause/Break key during the booting phase and saw that

what was detected was the CD-ROM. Specifically, this was shown, in brief:

- Detecting IDE Primary Master Disk: LBA, Mode 3, 1623MB

- Primary Slave: None

- Sec. Master: CDROM, Mode 3

- Sec Slave: None

Also, On the Std CMOS Set Up Pane:

Primary Master : Auto - Prim. Slave: None - Sec. Mast: Auto - Sec. Slave:

None

On the Integrated Peripherals Pane:

On Chip: IDE 1st and 2nd Channel Enabled

RE: PI0 of all IDE's : Auto

Re: UDMA of all IDE's : Disabled

I do not know what it all means, but to me it seems that I should change

some settings to see if the Data HD might actually be detected and become

readable.

Thank you for your patience!

"MEB" wrote:

>

> INLINE, Read carefully and completely before changing anything.

>

> "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> news:5A0BB68D-447F-46E3-9398-683F0CD3B42F@microsoft.com...

> |

> | "MEB" wrote:

> |

> | >

> | > "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> | > news:73FE3E92-A8C1-4020-87B0-B34D99A99759@microsoft.com...

> | > |

> | > | "MEB" wrote:

> | > |

> | > | >

> | > | > "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> | > | > news:07352F95-BB00-4FB9-A0BC-8C28FE419DA7@microsoft.com...

> | > | > | "MEB", a strange thing happened after I moved the Computer and

> Monitor

> | > to

> | > | > | another location. I reconnected everything, powered them up and,

> | > | > | surprisingly, it did re-start. However, like before, the Monitor

> | > light

> | > | > from

> | > | > | 'green' changed to 'red' and the tower would make a clicking sound

> and

> | > | > no-go.

> | > | > | And, like before, I had to coordinate the timing of powering up

> the

> | > two

> | > | > | components in order to get the system to boot properly. However,

> on

> | > the

> | > | > first

> | > | > | successful boot, like before, the CD and Zip drives were not seen,

> | > | > although

> | > | > | they responded in accepting and releasing the disks. Currently,

> | > however,

> | > | > it

> | > | > | just boots up to a point where it warns that the Keyboard is not

> | > attached

> | > | > and

> | > | > | that's it. I tried another keyboard, but...no-go.

> | > | > | If I want to pursue it, I will need to disconnect all the cables,

> dust

> | > up

> | > | > | all that I can, re-cable all and see what happens.

> | > | > | Thank you, "MEB", but I am not sure about it all.

> | > | > |

> | > | >

> | > | > Oh, okay, then if you decide to attempt this at some future date

> there

> | > may

> | > | > be something else to try.

> | > | >

> | > | > As you appear to get an initial finding of the peripherals except

> the

> | > | > keyboard on POST you might try to refresh the BIOS with a BIOS flash

> for

> | > | > that motherboard. This would be accomplished with a floppy disk

> created

> | > to

> | > | > automatically boot and flash the motherboard. At this point it

> appears

> | > that

> | > | > this may be a potential fix as there have been findings related to

> | > | > successful use of this technique to reset corrupted BIOS due to

> | > electrical

> | > | > issues, spikes, etc..

> | > | >

> | > | > First, if at all possible, remove the CMOS battery for about 10

> minutes

> | > to

> | > | > completely remove any old settings, re-insert after checking whether

> it

> | > is

> | > | > still good [generally 3+ volts] replace if needed [likely CR2032],

> and

> | > run

> | > | > the floppy flash disk. Remember to re-set any Bios settings if this

> | > appears

> | > | > to initially correct the issues.

> | > | >

> | > |

> | > | **** ***** Are you referring to a Startup Diskette created by the OS

> in

> | > place?

> | > | The wording 'floppy flash disk' is not familiar to me.

> | >

> | > Yes, or one from bootdisks.com or some place.

> | > An autoflash disk has only the basics [command.com, io.sys, etc.] and

> you

> | > create an autoexec.bat to *auto run* the commandline for the flash

> program.

> | > Make sure the autoexec and config sys contain nothing else, e.g., no

> | > drivers, no directions, NOTHING except the command line necessary to

> flash

> | > the BIOS.

> | > As you're having difficulty with the keyboard, you will need to make

> sure

> | > the boot block is also refreshed, and is included with the BIOS flash.

> Check

> | > on the MB site for the flash tool, its command line needs, AND the

> proper

> | > flash bin [or whatever it uses]. Most have a support forum so if

> necessary,

> | > ask there if the particular flash contains the boot block and was not

> | > indicated on the info for the download.

> | > Again, make sure the autoexec then contains the command to

> | > refresh/overwrite the boot block as the defaults may NOT include this

> | > function, in addition to the standard updates that might be included

> within

> | > the BIOS update.. MAKE SURE that the computer you make this autoflash

> disk

> | > on is NOT configured to boot from the floppy to negate the potential of

> | > flashing the wrong computer with the wrong BIOS.

> | > After creating the autoflash disk, make sure the target computer IS

> | > configured to boot from the floppy and has been reset to defaults [which

> it

> | > will be if you removed the battery], then run the autoflash disk.

> | >

> | > NOTE: Another suggested command line addition is to save the old BIOS

> prior

> | > to the flash in case of continued issues as some sites will look at

> these

> | > files and attempt to diagnose the issues. Also, make a written note of

> what

> | > the present BIOS version and subversion is.

> | >

> |

> | ?****"MEB", I can never seem to get to a point where the Startup Disk

> | becomes active. The Keyboard being a problem, I can't use any of its keys

> to

> | make respond to any command, like a CTRL or DEL or F1. Eventually, the

> warnig

> | comes up:

> | ' Keyboard Error or bo Keyboard. Keyboard is locked out - Unlock it.

> | CMOS Checksum Error - Defaults loaded' ...followed by a flashing dash and

> | that is all. As for saving the BIOS, I am at a loss.

>

> Oh, here's something I haven't thought of in awhile... does this computer

> have an actual KEYED lock on it anywhere?

>

> | I am currently spending some time with an old machine with 3.1 Version of

> | the Operating System. It still works. When I connect a second HD according

> to

> | rules, it detects it while booting, but it does not show when I check on

> the

> | available drives.

>

> Okay, make sure to read this whole response before trying anything. As the

> computer is running 3.1, it may be older and what would be used on newer

> boards may not be proper for an old DOS based computer.

>

> | By pressing DEL and getting on the Setup Mode, I see the option of setting

> | the Primary Master, Secondary Master, Primary Slave and Secondary

> Slave...( I

> | need to take another look to insure of what I am saying).

> | The first Screen shows info about the Primary Master:

> | The first Option is: 2(Y)- Size: 1622- Cyls: 786- Head: 64- Precomp: 0-

> | Landz: 3144- Sector: 63- Mode: LBA

>

> Okay, perhaps you had best post the make and model of this other/older

> computer, or motherboard and BIOS {preferably} before going much farther

> with this..Hard drive makes and models as well.

>

> Here's some general info:

>

> Okay, you're apparently using the hard drive detection pane, the first

> option is marked (Y) meaning best choice, so yes use that, but ONLY if that

> is what it was already set at. You check that by going into the standard

> setup page/pane [usually the first unless you have Soft Menu or the like]

> and seeing what might be there for the hard drives. This is generally the

> page where you also setup the clock, floppy disks, and errors. Write down

> what is presently shown.

>

> IF the original hard drive shows any numbers like you posted, then the

> drive was either manually set or the hard drive detection pane was used to

> set the properties. These are the numbers you should use when in the hard

> drive detection pane, or just bypass its setup screen, moving on to the

> second drive.

> IF this is the case, then these numbers should be used when re-checking

> through the hard drive detection pane or there is a risk of translation

> change and you may trash the data on that disk when the computer starts.

> You've posted what the detection screen shows so find the one which matches.

>

> | The next option is, respectively: 1- 1623- 3145- 16- 65535- 3144- 63-

> Normal

> | The next is, respectively: 3- 1622- 786- 64- 65535- 3144- 63- Large

> | If I skip that step, the next screens shows blanks except for the options.

>

> If you are using the autosetup/hard drive detection in the BIOS and it is

> NOT finding the second drive, then perhaps you have failed to properly set

> the hard drive jumpers to act as it should, or the hard drive is unsupported

> [to old for auto detection as its on-board chip does not return the

> information], OR the drive has completely failed. However, for this to work

> and be checked, the drives MUST be properly configured and jumpered.

>

> IF the drives are on ONE cable, the first is master (the one the detection

> wants you to pick yes for, e.g., the one originally in the computer) and its

> jumpers shouild be set that way. The second drive MUST have its jumper set

> for slave.

>

> IF, on the other hand, the drives are on TWO separate cables, both must be

> set as masters with their jumpers [presuming that these are the only two

> drives, i.e., there is no CDROM drive]. IF there is a CD drive, and a hard

> drive and CD share the cable, then the hard drive is generally set as the

> master and the CD as slave.

>

> IF. the second drive is not being detected and its jumpers and cable are

> correct, then it is still possible the drive is not detectable, and must be

> manually set. That can only be accomplished by finding the actual model and

> make of the hard drive. I have a few older hard drives lists, so if

> necessary these settings can likely be found if this is one of those older

> drives..

>

> HAVING indicated the cabling and jumpers:

>

> IF the drives are on two separate cables and you use the hard drive

> detection, then after the first screen shows the first/master found drive,

> the second would show nothing as there is no second drive on that channel.

> Passing that screen would take you to the second IDE channel with the second

> drive.

>

> | Needless to say....it is confusing and I just skip all.

> | My best choice would be to hook up the Hard Disks with from the troubled

> | Computer to the one I am currently using...newest one..., if I really want

> to

> | get the stored Data from them.

> | Thank you, for your time!

> |

>

> Not necessarily. Depending upon the age and make of the various

> computers/motherboards/BIOS, one may be closer to the one which originally

> held the problem/target disks. I say this because of potential translation

> issues, and potential hard drive overlays. The older the computer and/or

> disk, the more you may encounter these issues.

>

> --

>

> MEB

> http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

> _________

>

February 28, 2008

Re: Computer Failure

"BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:65B9F4E9-5C45-4457-A217-125260337642@microsoft.com...

| ***"

| MEB", regarding the KEYED lock, there is one, but I have no key for it.

| Besides, how can it suddenly lock itself out? There is a center post and

an

| outer ring with two small cut out slots...left and right. The arrow on the

| center post points to the right one.

The reason for asking is, on very rare occasions, if this KEYED lock was

connected to the motherboard it may short out causing a physical lockout.

That was the function of that keyed switch: to defeat startup.. Might check

inside to see if the wires running from it are attached to the motherboard.

Note however, that several manufacturers reversed the electrical aspects of

the switching [dead/break circuit [power disconnect or chip short {removable

wiring}]; ON to complete circuit {must be connected}= intermittent

disconnect {corrosion or other}= computer errors]

| Also, before getting covering all the steps you have suggested I take

(which

| will take a bit time to figure out and precede), I have to apologize in

| mistakenly saying something about the old computer on which I am trying to

| hook the HD's from the failed Computer. I have stated that thesystem,

while

| booting, detects the presence of the Data storage HD hooked up to it. That

| was wrong!

| I decided to hit the Pause/Break key during the booting phase and saw that

| what was detected was the CD-ROM. Specifically, this was shown, in brief:

| - Detecting IDE Primary Master Disk: LBA, Mode 3, 1623MB

| - Primary Slave: None

| - Sec. Master: CDROM, Mode 3

| - Sec Slave: None

|

| Also, On the Std CMOS Set Up Pane:

| Primary Master : Auto - Prim. Slave: None - Sec. Mast: Auto - Sec. Slave:

| None

Okay, set ALL to AUTO in that pane. Without auto being set the BIOS will

NOT find the new drive, and it will not be recognized and usable by any OS.

|

| On the Integrated Peripherals Pane:

| On Chip: IDE 1st and 2nd Channel Enabled

| RE: PI0 of all IDE's : Auto

| Re: UDMA of all IDE's : Disabled

Good, need both channels enabled, PIO at AUTO, but depending upon the

drives, UDMA [increases access speed and allows higher PIO modes] might be

necessary though the OS support would determine how effective that would be.

|

| I do not know what it all means, but to me it seems that I should change

| some settings to see if the Data HD might actually be detected and become

| readable.

You're right, change the Standard Screen settings for all the IDE to AUTO.

Then check by observing the POST screen to see if its detected, if not then

it MIGHT need manually set [due to age of the drive and lack of on disk

adaptor support].

| Thank you for your patience!

|

--

MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

_________

March 1, 2008

Re: Computer Failure

"MEB" wrote:

>

> "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> news:65B9F4E9-5C45-4457-A217-125260337642@microsoft.com...

> | ***"

> | MEB", regarding the KEYED lock, there is one, but I have no key for it.

> | Besides, how can it suddenly lock itself out? There is a center post and

> an

> | outer ring with two small cut out slots...left and right. The arrow on the

> | center post points to the right one.

>

> The reason for asking is, on very rare occasions, if this KEYED lock was

> connected to the motherboard it may short out causing a physical lockout.

> That was the function of that keyed switch: to defeat startup.. Might check

> inside to see if the wires running from it are attached to the motherboard.

> Note however, that several manufacturers reversed the electrical aspects of

> the switching [dead/break circuit [power disconnect or chip short {removable

> wiring}]; ON to complete circuit {must be connected}= intermittent

> disconnect {corrosion or other}= computer errors]

**** The wires from the KEYED lock are attached to the motherboard. I sort

of made sure that the connectors were firmly in place. I did not attempt at

cleaning anything, yet. No change.

***

>

> | Also, before getting covering all the steps you have suggested I take

> (which

> | will take a bit time to figure out and precede), I have to apologize in

> | mistakenly saying something about the old computer on which I am trying to

> | hook the HD's from the failed Computer. I have stated that thesystem,

> while

> | booting, detects the presence of the Data storage HD hooked up to it. That

> | was wrong!

> | I decided to hit the Pause/Break key during the booting phase and saw that

> | what was detected was the CD-ROM. Specifically, this was shown, in brief:

> | - Detecting IDE Primary Master Disk: LBA, Mode 3, 1623MB

> | - Primary Slave: None

> | - Sec. Master: CDROM, Mode 3

> | - Sec Slave: None

> |

> | Also, On the Std CMOS Set Up Pane:

> | Primary Master : Auto - Prim. Slave: None - Sec. Mast: Auto - Sec. Slave:

> | None

>

> Okay, set ALL to AUTO in that pane. Without auto being set the BIOS will

> NOT find the new drive, and it will not be recognized and usable by any OS.

>

> |

> | On the Integrated Peripherals Pane:

> | On Chip: IDE 1st and 2nd Channel Enabled

> | RE: PI0 of all IDE's : Auto

> | Re: UDMA of all IDE's : Disabled

>

> Good, need both channels enabled, PIO at AUTO, but depending upon the

> drives, UDMA [increases access speed and allows higher PIO modes] might be

> necessary though the OS support would determine how effective that would be.

>

**** I set all the drives to Auto on the CMOS setup pane and saved the

changes.

At boot time, the system detected and identified the Secondary Master (the

Storage Disk from the failed Computer) and the CD-ROM Disk, as the Secondary

Master. However, after booting, only A: , C: and D:(CD-ROM) showed up.

****

> |

> | I do not know what it all means, but to me it seems that I should change

> | some settings to see if the Data HD might actually be detected and become

> | readable.

>

> You're right, change the Standard Screen settings for all the IDE to AUTO.

> Then check by observing the POST screen to see if its detected, if not then

> it MIGHT need manually set [due to age of the drive and lack of on disk

> adaptor support].

>

> | Thank you for your patience!

> |

>

**** An additional note regarding the good Computer that I am currently

using...Sony VAIO. 'My Computer' shows that it has a Local Disk(C:), a Local

Disk(D:), a Compact Disk(E: CD_ROM), a Compact Disk(F: DVD), along with A:

and an external Iomega 250 ZIP Drive. When I opened the case, I was surprised

to see the presence of only one HD connected to the first connector (not the

end connector) of the cable. The end connector was open. The Primary HD has

15.5GB capacity. The Secondary has 41.6GB. The CD-ROM and the DVD Drives are

on another cable.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

****

>

> MEB

> http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

> _________

>

March 1, 2008

Re: Computer Failure

"BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:5657EB6C-C729-43B3-AE0D-FEAD20FC7AA4@microsoft.com...

|

| "MEB" wrote:

|

| >

| > "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

| > news:65B9F4E9-5C45-4457-A217-125260337642@microsoft.com...

| > | ***"

| > | MEB", regarding the KEYED lock, there is one, but I have no key for

it.

| > | Besides, how can it suddenly lock itself out? There is a center post

and

| > an

| > | outer ring with two small cut out slots...left and right. The arrow on

the

| > | center post points to the right one.

| >

| > The reason for asking is, on very rare occasions, if this KEYED lock

was

| > connected to the motherboard it may short out causing a physical

lockout.

| > That was the function of that keyed switch: to defeat startup.. Might

check

| > inside to see if the wires running from it are attached to the

motherboard.

| > Note however, that several manufacturers reversed the electrical aspects

of

| > the switching [dead/break circuit [power disconnect or chip short

{removable

| > wiring}]; ON to complete circuit {must be connected}= intermittent

| > disconnect {corrosion or other}= computer errors]

|

| **** The wires from the KEYED lock are attached to the motherboard. I sort

| of made sure that the connectors were firmly in place. I did not attempt

at

| cleaning anything, yet. No change.

| ***

Okay, as I said, it was something I that I hadn't thought of in awhile

largely because these are found on OLDER computers.

You could attempt to temporarily disconnect it to see if that changes

anything.

|

| >

| > | Also, before getting covering all the steps you have suggested I take

| > (which

| > | will take a bit time to figure out and precede), I have to apologize

in

| > | mistakenly saying something about the old computer on which I am

trying to

| > | hook the HD's from the failed Computer. I have stated that the system,

| > while

| > | booting, detects the presence of the Data storage HD hooked up to it.

That

| > | was wrong!

| > | I decided to hit the Pause/Break key during the booting phase and saw

that

| > | what was detected was the CD-ROM. Specifically, this was shown, in

brief:

| > | - Detecting IDE Primary Master Disk: LBA, Mode 3, 1623MB

| > | - Primary Slave: None

| > | - Sec. Master: CDROM, Mode 3

| > | - Sec Slave: None

| > |

| > | Also, On the Std CMOS Set Up Pane:

| > | Primary Master : Auto - Prim. Slave: None - Sec. Mast: Auto - Sec.

Slave:

| > | None

| >

| > Okay, set ALL to AUTO in that pane. Without auto being set the BIOS

will

| > NOT find the new drive, and it will not be recognized and usable by any

OS.

| >

| > |

| > | On the Integrated Peripherals Pane:

| > | On Chip: IDE 1st and 2nd Channel Enabled

| > | RE: PI0 of all IDE's : Auto

| > | Re: UDMA of all IDE's : Disabled

| >

| > Good, need both channels enabled, PIO at AUTO, but depending upon the

| > drives, UDMA [increases access speed and allows higher PIO modes] might

be

| > necessary though the OS support would determine how effective that would

be.

| >

| **** I set all the drives to Auto on the CMOS setup pane and saved the

| changes.

| At boot time, the system detected and identified the Secondary Master (the

| Storage Disk from the failed Computer) and the CD-ROM Disk, as the

Secondary

| Master. However, after booting, only A: , C: and D:(CD-ROM) showed up.

| ****

That should have made it accessible,, to make sure we don't run around in

circles now that we are addressing two or more computers, and several makes

and models of hard drives:

1. IF the *bad* hard disk was set as MASTER it is in conflict with either

the original drive if still in place or the CDROM if on the same cable, as

both are apparently configured as masters. When sharing a cable only one

drive can be a master, the other MUST be a slave [not getting into cable

select issues]. Check the jumpers on the drives and set properly.

2. What OS are you using on that computer and the make and model of the

computer OR its motherboard and/or BIOS [let's call it by its make from now

on]?

3. What is the size of the C drive that is found [is it the actual drive]?

4. Can you access the disk from DOS now? What version of DOS are you using

[type ver at the command prompt]?

5. What does *fdisk /status* from the DOS prompt show?

|

| > |

| > | I do not know what it all means, but to me it seems that I should

change

| > | some settings to see if the Data HD might actually be detected and

become

| > | readable.

| >

| > You're right, change the Standard Screen settings for all the IDE to

AUTO.

| > Then check by observing the POST screen to see if its detected, if not

then

| > it MIGHT need manually set [due to age of the drive and lack of on disk

| > adaptor support].

| >

| > | Thank you for your patience!

| > |

| >

| > MEB

| **** An additional note regarding the good Computer that I am currently

| using...Sony VAIO. 'My Computer' shows that it has a Local Disk(C:), a

Local

| Disk(D:), a Compact Disk(E: CD_ROM), a Compact Disk(F: DVD), along with

A:

| and an external Iomega 250 ZIP Drive. When I opened the case, I was

surprised

| to see the presence of only one HD connected to the first connector (not

the

| end connector) of the cable. The end connector was open. The Primary HD

has

| 15.5GB capacity. The Secondary has 41.6GB. The CD-ROM and the DVD Drives

are

| on another cable.

| Any ideas?

| Thanks!

| ****

Okay, from now on refer to discussions related to that computer as the

VAIO[model]

It appears you have one hard disk partitioned into two, Windows will SHOW

them as separate drives.

Here are potential issues when connecting a drive to the secondary

connector on IDE0/channel1 - IRQ 14 [use SYSTEM > Device Manager > Hard Disk

Controllers > Primary IDE Controller > settings and resources to view].:

1. The present drive [apparently 60 gig] is partitioned with C {the primary

boot partition} as a 15.5 gig drive, adding another drive would move the

second partition presently being seen as the 41.6 gig drive D to drive E.

The new hard drive would have to be configured as a slave and the first hard

drive as master with their jumpers or errors and potential disk corruption

could occur. There could also be a hidden partition involved for SONY

specific recovery or other, so it may be larger [an 80 gig drive perhaps,

though that won't presently affect what we are discussing], what is the

actual model and make of that drive?

There MAY potentially be a hard drive conflict if the drives are not

compatible. What are the two drive's makes and models

2. The two drives on the second channel [CD and DVD] will be moved to drive

F and G, but only IF the OS has not had its drives limited to only see

drives up to drive F: limited by either the driver settings, system

settings, or something like TweakUI which modified the registry or an

inclusion in the system.ini or config.sys [lastdrive=*]. If this is the

case, the lost/un-recognized drive will still cause errors even though it is

not listed in Windows, it is still holding memory and CMOS/BIOS addressing

which Windows may try to assign to other needs, or may cause conflicting

system device issues..

3. The Iomega drive adds potential issues to the mix if it has been set to

always use some specific drive letter or IRQ, and/or if [as sometimes

happens] it is incompatible with this older drive you are attempting to

access.

4. A drive overlay may be part of the issue, but beyond that, we may also be

running across a disk or disks which have had Drive Space or Double Space

[or another drive compressor] used.

5. Perhaps its time to do - fdisk /status - [DOS prompt] on the disk(s) to

see what that shows [using one of the working computers with the target

drive properly configured as master or slave.

To make this easier, pick ONE computer to use for further testing and

recovery attempts. Its not a good idea to switch drives around to different

computers as BIOS translation issues [how the disk is accessed and data is

read] may corrupt a potentially recoverable disk.

The best way to continue is to create a NEW discussion [computer name

{Microtime/which one}- {disk recovery} or {computer repair}] with reference

to this discussion [like what we did for that Office 2000

clean-up/re-installation discussion] with the new post/discussion

referencing this discussion.

I say this because there are now several computers and issues being

referenced in this present discussion.

If * Microtime - computer repair * start that with answers to these

questions:

1. Do you have an old Mono/CGA/EGA/VGA ISA [8 or 16bit] video card/adapter

laying around?

2. Do you have a different case or power supply?

3. Did you check the motherboard CMOS battery?

4. Are you completely shutting off this computer?

5. Did you change out the cables as suggested?

6. Did you, when it started that one time, go into the BIOS and set Ignore

All Errors.

I may have missed this [or forgotten]: did you recover the data off the

hard disk(s) yet?

--

MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

_________

March 3, 2008

Re: Computer Failure

MEB 3/1/2008 3:45 PM PST

| >

| > "BAP" <BAP@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

| > news:65B9F4E9-5C45-4457-A217-125260337642@microsoft.com...

| > | ***"

| > | MEB", regarding the KEYED lock, there is one, but I have no key for

it.

| > | Besides, how can it suddenly lock itself out? There is a center post

and

| > an

| > | outer ring with two small cut out slots...left and right. The arrow on

the

| > | center post points to the right one.

| >

| > The reason for asking is, on very rare occasions, if this KEYED lock

was

| > connected to the motherboard it may short out causing a physical

lockout.

| > That was the function of that keyed switch: to defeat startup.. Might

check

| > inside to see if the wires running from it are attached to the

motherboard.

| > Note however, that several manufacturers reversed the electrical aspects

of

| > the switching [dead/break circuit [power disconnect or chip short

{removable

| > wiring}]; ON to complete circuit {must be connected}= intermittent

| > disconnect {corrosion or other}= computer errors]

|

| **** The wires from the KEYED lock are attached to the motherboard. I sort

| of made sure that the connectors were firmly in place. I did not attempt

at

| cleaning anything, yet. No change.

| ***

Okay, as I said, it was something I that I hadn't thought of in awhile

largely because these are found on OLDER computers.

You could attempt to temporarily disconnect it to see if that changes

anything.

****

I tried that, but still no luck. I also shorted the contacts where the wires

would be placed, but sill

no-go.

***

|

| >

| > | Also, before getting covering all the steps you have suggested I take

| > (which

| > | will take a bit time to figure out and precede), I have to apologize

in

| > | mistakenly saying something about the old computer on which I am

trying to

| > | hook the HD's from the failed Computer. I have stated that the system,

| > while

| > | booting, detects the presence of the Data storage HD hooked up to it.

That

| > | was wrong!

| > | I decided to hit the Pause/Break key during the booting phase and saw

that

| > | what was detected was the CD-ROM. Specifically, this was shown, in

brief:

| > | - Detecting IDE Primary Master Disk: LBA, Mode 3, 1623MB

| > | - Primary Slave: None

| > | - Sec. Master: CDROM, Mode 3

| > | - Sec Slave: None

| > |

| > | Also, On the Std CMOS Set Up Pane:

| > | Primary Master : Auto - Prim. Slave: None - Sec. Mast: Auto - Sec.

Slave:

| > | None

| >

| > Okay, set ALL to AUTO in that pane. Without auto being set the BIOS

will

| > NOT find the new drive, and it will not be recognized and usable by any

OS.

| >

| > |

| > | On the Integrated Peripherals Pane:

| > | On Chip: IDE 1st and 2nd Channel Enabled

| > | RE: PI0 of all IDE's : Auto

| > | Re: UDMA of all IDE's : Disabled

| >

| > Good, need both channels enabled, PIO at AUTO, but depending upon the

| > drives, UDMA [increases access speed and allows higher PIO modes] might

be

| > necessary though the OS support would determine how effective that would

be.

| >

| **** I set all the drives to Auto on the CMOS setup pane and saved the

| changes.

| At boot time, the system detected and identified the Secondary Master (the

| Storage Disk from the failed Computer) and the CD-ROM Disk, as the

Secondary

| Master. However, after booting, only A: , C: and D:(CD-ROM) showed up.

| ****

That should have made it accessible,, to make sure we don't run around in

circles now that we are addressing two or more computers, and several makes

and models of hard drives:

1. IF the *bad* hard disk was set as MASTER it is in conflict with either

the original drive if still in place or the CDROM if on the same cable, as

both are apparently configured as masters. When sharing a cable only one

drive can be a master, the other MUST be a slave [not getting into cable

select issues]. Check the jumpers on the drives and set properly.

****

The hard disk from the failed computer was set as a secondary Master and, as

such, it has been performing well. Unfortunately, that is the Computer that

has failed, namely, the Microtime.

***

2. What OS are you using on that computer and the make and model of the

computer OR its motherboard and/or BIOS [let's call it by its make from now

on]?

****

The OS was originally W98. A friend gave me an upgrade to W98SE. That, when

installed, did not appear to cause any problems, except that I could not get

it to accept USB cards. In time, the 10GB HD started acting up and I decided

to purchase an larger HD. That was a 40GB Maxtor. The software that came

with it caused many problems. I managed to follow instructions and set

jumpers and cable connection as specified. The original HD became the

Secondary Master. Most of my Data are there. There was no problems with all

for long time. It was rather peculiar, however, that, whenever I inserted a

Boot-disk to boot up from, the system would place me in Secondary Maste. The

Primary was nowhere to be found. There was a lengthy Post about this problem

that involved many of your expert helpers, a year or two back. Gary, PCR,

Harvat, but mainly Blanton, to name a few. Bill concluded that there was an

overlay. The outcome was that, in

order to boot up successfully, I had to hold the CTRL key during the booting

cycle and select Boot from Floppy. That would put me in the Primary Master.

***

3. What is the size of the C drive that is found [is it the actual drive]?

****

If you are referring to the Microtime, that is the one I just commented on.

The Risys was about 4GB. (I need to check on that).

****

4. Can you access the disk from DOS now? What version of DOS are you using

[type ver at the command prompt]?

****

I will need to do that, but not on the Microtime.

E. The Sony has Windows Millennium Version 4.90.3000.

***

5. What does *fdisk /status* from the DOS prompt show?

****

On the Sony, it shows that Disk 1, has a total of 58644MB, Free 1, Usage 100%

C: 160002

D: 42641

***

|

| > |

| > | I do not know what it all means, but to me it seems that I should

change

| > | some settings to see if the Data HD might actually be detected and

become

| > | readable.

| >

| > You're right, change the Standard Screen settings for all the IDE to

AUTO.

| > Then check by observing the POST screen to see if its detected, if not

then

| > it MIGHT need manually set [due to age of the drive and lack of on disk

| > adaptor support].

| >

| > | Thank you for your patience!

| > |

| >

| > MEB

| **** An additional note regarding the good Computer that I am currently

| using...Sony VAIO. 'My Computer' shows that it has a Local Disk(C:), a

Local

| Disk(D:), a Compact Disk(E: CD_ROM), a Compact Disk(F: DVD), along with A:

| and an external Iomega 250 ZIP Drive. When I opened the case, I was

surprised |to see the presence of only one HD connected to the first

connector (not the end

| connector) of the cable. The end connector was open. The Primary HD has

15.5GB | capacity. The Secondary has 41.6GB. The CD-ROM and the DVD Drives

are on

| another cable.

| Any ideas?

| Thanks!

| ****

Okay, from now on refer to discussions related to that computer as the

VAIO[model]

It appears you have one hard disk partitioned into two, Windows will SHOW

them as separate

drives.

****

“MEB”, I saw that the HD was partitioned, as you said, by looking at the

System Information pane of the Components/Storage Disks, in brief:

IDE Type 47, Partitions 2 total 57..27GB.

Disk 0, Partition 0, 15.63GB

Disk 0, Partition 1, 41.64GB

***

Here are potential issues when connecting a drive to the secondary

connector on IDE0/channel1 - IRQ 14 [use SYSTEM > Device Manager > Hard Disk

Controllers > Primary IDE Controller > settings and resources to view].:

*****

Sorry, I can’t seem to find my way around to get to that pane.

***

1. The present drive [apparently 60 gig] is partitioned with C {the primary

boot partition} as a

15.5 gig drive, adding another drive would move the second partition

presently being seen as the

41.6 gig drive D to drive E. The new hard drive would have to be configured

as a slave and the

first hard drive as master with their jumpers or errors and potential disk

corruption could occur.

There could also be a hidden partition involved for SONY specific recovery

or other, so it may be

larger [an 80 gig drive perhaps, though that won't presently affect what we

are discussing], what

is the actual model and make of that drive?

There MAY potentially be a hard drive conflict if the drives are not

compatible. What are the two drive's makes and models?