Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

March 13, 2008

I recently had to repair file system corruption for two XP users, one

with a FAT32 partition, the other with NTFS. Unfortunately I have

little experience with XP so I struggled quite a bit. Anyway I

discovered that Microsoft's disc repair tools were flawed in several

ways.

Case #1

-------

The PC with the NTFS partition had an inaccessible registry file,

c:\windows\system32\config\system. It couldn't be deleted, copied, or

renamed, so the procedure in this MSKB article could not be applied:

How to recover from a corrupted registry that prevents Windows XP from

starting:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307545

I attempted to run CHKDSK from the repair console of a bootable XP CD,

but the file system was deemed to have unrecoverable errors. I then

installed the drive into an external USB enclosure, attached it to a

working XP system, and ran CHKDSK from within a CMD window. CHKDSK

found many problems, including an MFT issue, all of which were fixed.

Prior to running CHKDSK, I tried to repair the drive from within the

GUI via Tools > Properties, but this also produced an "unrecoverable"

message.

Case #2

-------

The PC with the FAT32 partition could not boot. It produced a "missing

NTLDR" error. This suggested that the MBR and boot sector were

probably OK, and that the error was somewhere in the FATs or directory

structure. I booted into the repair console of an XP CD and tried a

DIR command. This produced a "could not be enumerated" error. DISKPART

was able to see the full partition (38GB), so the partition table and

MBR were apparently OK. CHKDSK deemed that the drive was

"unrecoverable". In desperation I tried the FIXBOOT command and that's

when things became extremely bizarre. A DIR command was now able to

see the C: drive, but there were no files! The partition size was

reported as 10MB (or was it 10GB?). I reconfirmed with DISKPART that

the partition table was still intact, but in desperation I now tried

FIXMBR. This command warned me that the MBR contained unknown or

damaged code, so I went ahead and allowed it to refresh the code. It

reported success but when I ran FIXMBR a second time, it still

complained of unknown or damaged code.

Now I'd had enough, so I installed the drive into an external USB

enclosure and attached it to a working XP system. I used DEBUG from

with a CMD window to view the drive's boot sector and was horrified to

see a FAT12 signature. For some inexplicable reason, FIXBOOT had

replaced a FAT32 HD boot sector with a FAT12 floppy boot sector!

CHKDSK was unable to repair this problem, and My Computer showed the

drive as having a capacity of 10MB (or 10GB?). I then used DEBUG to

zero the contents of the boot sector, thinking that now CHKDSK would

have a better chance to repair it, but CHKDSK now complained that it

would not operate on a RAW volume. Attempting to repair the drive from

within the GUI using Tools > Options produced no response.

Now I was getting desperate. I took the USB drive to my Windows 98SE

box and to my surprise Explorer was able to see the entire drive with

all the original files apparently still intact! SCANDISK determined

that the first copy of the FAT was corrupt, but it didn't tell me that

the boot sector was missing. It just used the backup copy of the boot

sector (logical sector 6) and behaved as if all was well. With some

trepidation I allowed Scandisk to repair the FAT, and to fix the

misreported file sizes for SYSTEM.LOG and SOFTWARE.LOG. However,

Scandisk did not replace the damaged boot sector. I had to do this

manually via DEBUG in a DOS box, by copying the contents of sector 6

to sector 0. After doing this, I was able to see the all the files in

a working XP system (in the USB enclosure), and CHKDSK reported that

all was fine. However, I was still unable to boot from the drive when

I reinstalled it in the original XP box.

So what was wrong? I looked closely at the boot sector again and found

that it was a Win9x boot sector, ie there were references to IO.SYS,

MSDOS.SYS and WINBOOT.SYS, but no reference to NTLDR. WTF! I decided

to load XP onto a spare HD that had been FDISKed and FORMATted by

Windows 98SE and sure enough XP replaced the boot sector with its own

FAT32 code, but it did not touch the backup boot sector. So XP had

created a file system that had an XP boot sector and a Win9X backup.

So what to do now? I decided to make a hybrid boot sector by using the

tail end of an XP FAT32 boot sector for the code, and the beginning of

the Win9X boot sector for the data. After restoring this patched boot

sector to sector 0, the drive booted in the original machine and all

was well. BTW, boot sector templates can also be extracted from

AUTOCHK.EXE.

As a final check, I used MBRtool to make a copy of the MBR code. I

then compared this with an MBR template that I found inside

DISKPART.EXE. There was no difference. So why did FIXMBR complain

about unknown or damaged code?

- Franc Zabkar

--

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

March 14, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

news:ia9jt35o6fi1rrjkqfvm3p0cuskn84aohj@4ax.com...

| I recently had to repair file system corruption for two XP users, one

| with a FAT32 partition, the other with NTFS. Unfortunately I have

| little experience with XP so I struggled quite a bit. Anyway I

| discovered that Microsoft's disc repair tools were flawed in several

| ways.

|

| Case #1

| -------

|

| The PC with the NTFS partition had an inaccessible registry file,

| c:\windows\system32\config\system. It couldn't be deleted, copied, or

| renamed, so the procedure in this MSKB article could not be applied:

|

| How to recover from a corrupted registry that prevents Windows XP from

| starting:

| http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307545

|

| I attempted to run CHKDSK from the repair console of a bootable XP CD,

| but the file system was deemed to have unrecoverable errors. I then

| installed the drive into an external USB enclosure, attached it to a

| working XP system, and ran CHKDSK from within a CMD window. CHKDSK

| found many problems, including an MFT issue, all of which were fixed.

| Prior to running CHKDSK, I tried to repair the drive from within the

| GUI via Tools > Properties, but this also produced an "unrecoverable"

| message.

That error seems to indicate corruption within the streams and other file

handling. Did the computer get rapidly shut off by power disruption, or

perhaps suffered power flucuations?

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/308041

Resources for troubleshooting startup problems in Windows XP

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307654

How to install and use the Recovery Console in Windows XP

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/reskit/c28621675.mspx

XP Professional Resource Kit - Troubleshooting Disks and File Systems

Excerpt http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314835/en-us:

If you run CHKDSK online, the code that actually performs the verification

resides in utility DLLs, for example Untfs.dll and Ufat.dll. The

verification routines that CHKDSK invokes are the same routines that run

when a volume is verified through the Windows Explorer or Disk Management

graphical user interface.

However, if CHKDSK is scheduled to run when the computer restarts, the

binary module that contains the verification code is Autochk.exe, a native

Windows program. Because Autochk.exe runs early in the computer's startup

sequence, Autochk.exe does not have the benefit of virtual memory or of

other Win32 services.

Autochk.exe generates the same kind of text output that the Chkdsk.exe

utility DLLs generate.

NOTE where the information is obtained from/used.

Microsoft Windows 2000 uses the NTFS file system version 3.0, and Windows

XP uses the NTFS file system version 3.1.

The MBR created by a running Windows 2000 or XP OS (specifically Disk

Management) when used to install a completely blank hard drive on your

system; includes details about the Win 2k/XP *Disk Signature bytes*!

http://thestarman.pcministry.com/asm/mbr/NTFSBR.htm

http://thestarman.pcministry.com/asm/mbr/NTLDR.htm

http://thestarman.pcministry.com/asm/mbr/ntFAT32BR.htm

| Case #2

| -------

|

| The PC with the FAT32 partition could not boot. It produced a "missing

| NTLDR" error. This suggested that the MBR and boot sector were

| probably OK, and that the error was somewhere in the FATs or directory

| structure. I booted into the repair console of an XP CD and tried a

| DIR command. This produced a "could not be enumerated" error. DISKPART

| was able to see the full partition (38GB), so the partition table and

| MBR were apparently OK. CHKDSK deemed that the drive was

| "unrecoverable". In desperation I tried the FIXBOOT command and that's

| when things became extremely bizarre. A DIR command was now able to

| see the C: drive, but there were no files! The partition size was

| reported as 10MB (or was it 10GB?). I reconfirmed with DISKPART that

| the partition table was still intact, but in desperation I now tried

| FIXMBR. This command warned me that the MBR contained unknown or

| damaged code, so I went ahead and allowed it to refresh the code. It

| reported success but when I ran FIXMBR a second time, it still

| complained of unknown or damaged code.

First I would question whether you cold rebooted between the two FIXMBR

[FIXMBR {ugh} which I found to be questionable when using] trys.

Second:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/300415/ - Diskpart Command-Line Utility

Third, did you use the proper commandline syntax for the tools?

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/247575/EN-US

Chkdsk Does Not Use Backup Boot Sector to Fix Corrupted FAT32 Boot Sector

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/reskit/z03c621675.mspx

XP Professional Resource Kit - Tools for Troubleshooting

|

| Now I'd had enough, so I installed the drive into an external USB

| enclosure and attached it to a working XP system. I used DEBUG from

| with a CMD window to view the drive's boot sector and was horrified to

| see a FAT12 signature. For some inexplicable reason, FIXBOOT had

| replaced a FAT32 HD boot sector with a FAT12 floppy boot sector!

| CHKDSK was unable to repair this problem, and My Computer showed the

| drive as having a capacity of 10MB (or 10GB?). I then used DEBUG to

| zero the contents of the boot sector, thinking that now CHKDSK would

| have a better chance to repair it, but CHKDSK now complained that it

| would not operate on a RAW volume. Attempting to repair the drive from

| within the GUI using Tools > Options produced no response.

Yeah CHKDSK would complain ALOT about that, it had nothing to work with.

|

| Now I was getting desperate. I took the USB drive to my Windows 98SE

| box and to my surprise Explorer was able to see the entire drive with

| all the original files apparently still intact! SCANDISK determined

| that the first copy of the FAT was corrupt, but it didn't tell me that

| the boot sector was missing. It just used the backup copy of the boot

| sector (logical sector 6) and behaved as if all was well. With some

| trepidation I allowed Scandisk to repair the FAT, and to fix the

| misreported file sizes for SYSTEM.LOG and SOFTWARE.LOG. However,

| Scandisk did not replace the damaged boot sector. I had to do this

| manually via DEBUG in a DOS box, by copying the contents of sector 6

| to sector 0. After doing this, I was able to see the all the files in

| a working XP system (in the USB enclosure), and CHKDSK reported that

| all was fine. However, I was still unable to boot from the drive when

| I reinstalled it in the original XP box.

|

| So what was wrong? I looked closely at the boot sector again and found

| that it was a Win9x boot sector, ie there were references to IO.SYS,

| MSDOS.SYS and WINBOOT.SYS, but no reference to NTLDR. WTF! I decided

| to load XP onto a spare HD that had been FDISKed and FORMATted by

| Windows 98SE and sure enough XP replaced the boot sector with its own

| FAT32 code, but it did not touch the backup boot sector. So XP had

| created a file system that had an XP boot sector and a Win9X backup.

|

| So what to do now? I decided to make a hybrid boot sector by using the

| tail end of an XP FAT32 boot sector for the code, and the beginning of

| the Win9X boot sector for the data. After restoring this patched boot

| sector to sector 0, the drive booted in the original machine and all

| was well. BTW, boot sector templates can also be extracted from

| AUTOCHK.EXE.

AUTOCHK is apparently the proper code to use.

|

| As a final check, I used MBRtool to make a copy of the MBR code. I

| then compared this with an MBR template that I found inside

| DISKPART.EXE. There was no difference. So why did FIXMBR complain

| about unknown or damaged code?

|

| - Franc Zabkar

| --

| Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

You're dealing with the wonders of Microsoft and NT5.1 there. Another

question would be whether the newest versions of those tools were used.

But I must say that personally, I generally try to use other's tools rather

than Microsoft's..

There are other disk tools which seem to work better/easier with NTFS and

NT5 file systems. Check out Testdisk, HDAT, and MHDD.

http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk_Download - now at version 6.9

http://hddguru.com/

http://hddguru.com/content/en/software/2005.10.02-MHDD/

http://www.hdat2.com/

BTW Franc, you're part of the reason I posted that link for the non-GUI

Microsoft OS in here. Though you might want to get in on the ground floor of

what will likely translate to the nex-gen/new processor base coding, for

what may be used in the non-legacy Windows. Kinda like the old DOS days and

downloading betas from Microsoft's BBS before it turned into the monster it

is ... (now if only they were paying the beta testers.. hahaha)

--

MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

_________

March 14, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

Franc, although this post is beyond my technical ability it was read

with wonder. Wish I could answer your question !!

Perhaps you can answer mine:

I own an IBM Thinkpad notebook PC. It seems IBM uses an unusual boot

sector. I've read it is a L-O-N-G sector (greater in size than normal?)

It also seems unless IBM's install routine is used to install an OS you

might as well forget booting. For example, if you formated FAT32 for

Win98 and had applied the SYS command (FORMAT C: /s) the PC would just

throw an error (Operating System not found).

If a bootable HD (IBM) was cloned to a new HD and the boot sector was

also cloned you could boot but obviously IBM's BIOS is looking for more

than the standard boot sector. Would you happen to know anything about

these non-conventional boot sectors? Would you know how to save a

non-conventional boot sector's infomation in the event it was needed to

be reinstalled? I've used MBRtool but am not convinced it saved ALL the

information necessary. I'm thinking it just saved a CONVENTIONAL BS

length. Have not tried applying the saved BS information to another

drive to see if it was bootable however.

Thanks for any help!

Vic

March 15, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:04:09 -0500, "none" <nospam@bogusaddress.com>

put finger to keyboard and composed:

>I own an IBM Thinkpad notebook PC. It seems IBM uses an unusual boot

>sector. I've read it is a L-O-N-G sector (greater in size than normal?)

>It also seems unless IBM's install routine is used to install an OS you

>might as well forget booting. For example, if you formated FAT32 for

>Win98 and had applied the SYS command (FORMAT C: /s) the PC would just

>throw an error (Operating System not found).

>

>If a bootable HD (IBM) was cloned to a new HD and the boot sector was

>also cloned you could boot but obviously IBM's BIOS is looking for more

>than the standard boot sector. Would you happen to know anything about

>these non-conventional boot sectors? Would you know how to save a

>non-conventional boot sector's infomation in the event it was needed to

>be reinstalled? I've used MBRtool but am not convinced it saved ALL the

>information necessary. I'm thinking it just saved a CONVENTIONAL BS

>length. Have not tried applying the saved BS information to another

>drive to see if it was bootable however.

>

>Thanks for any help!

>Vic

The following diagram (fixed width font) is my understanding of the

structure of a FAT32 volume. Not all disc tools can see all parts of

the physical disc, so I have attempted to show where they can be used

(AIUI).

mbrtool chkdsk, scandisk, debug, sys, format

| |

|track 0 |

| |-- logical drive C: (FAT32) --------------------------|

physical |

sector 0 |

| |

| | Backup mostly

MBR ----- Boot --- boot -- blank -- FAT#1 - FAT#2 - Root --- File

+ sector sector sectors directory area

Partition 0 6

Table

| |

| sys

| fixboot

| format

fdisk

fixmbr

mbrtool

I have no experience with IBM notebooks, but third party boot managers

usually live in track 0, ie just before the first logical volume. They

can occupy several sectors, not just sector 0. You can use MBRtool to

save track 0 and/or physical sector 0. The latter is where the

partition table and MBR code normally reside, although your boot

manager (or virus) may relocate the partition table to another sector.

If the partition table has been relocated, then that may explain why

the hard drive is invisible after booting from a floppy or CD. In this

case it's only after the non-standard MBR code has been executed

during the course of a normal HD boot that the partition table becomes

visible and logical volumes can be found.

If I were trying to understand your file system, I would first look at

track 0, but I would boot from a floppy or CD to do this, otherwise

you couldn't be sure that the MBR code in the HD wasn't masking the

real track 0.

If you want to see the contents of the boot sector of logical drive

C:, then execute the following at the DOS prompt:

debug

-L 100 2 0 1

-D 100 2ff

-Q

To see the backup boot sector, type ...

debug

-L 100 2 6 1

-D 100 2ff

-Q

- Franc Zabkar

--

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

March 15, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

Franc Zabkar wrote:

> I recently had to repair file system corruption for two XP users, one

> with a FAT32 partition, the other with NTFS. Unfortunately I have

> little experience with XP so I struggled quite a bit. Anyway I

> discovered that Microsoft's disc repair tools were flawed in several

> ways.

>

> Case #2

> -------

>

> The PC with the FAT32 partition could not boot. It produced a "missing

> NTLDR" error. This suggested that the MBR and boot sector were

> probably OK, and that the error was somewhere in the FATs or directory

> structure. I booted into the repair console of an XP CD and tried a

[snip]

>

> Now I was getting desperate. I took the USB drive to my Windows 98SE

> box and to my surprise Explorer was able to see the entire drive with

> all the original files apparently still intact! SCANDISK determined

Because "I have little experience with XP" .. i don't see that

you mention that the [NTLdr] file ( and the [NTDetect.com] file )

is there or that you tried with a new copy off the WinXP CD in

case of corruption.

[snip]

>

> So what was wrong? I looked closely at the boot sector again and found

> that it was a Win9x boot sector, ie there were references to IO.SYS,

> MSDOS.SYS and WINBOOT.SYS, but no reference to NTLDR. WTF!

Ok, but since i don't know that there normally is, i mentioned

the above just in case.

--

Nah-ah. I'm staying out of this. ... Now, here's my opinion.

Please followup in the newsgroup.

E-mail address is invalid due to spam-control.

March 16, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 05:00:48 +0100, "... et al."

<look@sig.bcause.this.is.invalid> put finger to keyboard and composed:

>Franc Zabkar wrote:

>

>> I recently had to repair file system corruption for two XP users, one

>> with a FAT32 partition, the other with NTFS. Unfortunately I have

>> little experience with XP so I struggled quite a bit. Anyway I

>> discovered that Microsoft's disc repair tools were flawed in several

>> ways.

>>

>

>> Case #2

>> -------

>>

>> The PC with the FAT32 partition could not boot. It produced a "missing

>> NTLDR" error. This suggested that the MBR and boot sector were

>> probably OK, and that the error was somewhere in the FATs or directory

>> structure. I booted into the repair console of an XP CD and tried a

>

> [snip]

>

>>

>> Now I was getting desperate. I took the USB drive to my Windows 98SE

>> box and to my surprise Explorer was able to see the entire drive with

>> all the original files apparently still intact! SCANDISK determined

>

>Because "I have little experience with XP" .. i don't see that

>you mention that the [NTLdr] file ( and the [NTDetect.com] file )

>is there or that you tried with a new copy off the WinXP CD in

>case of corruption.

A DIR from within the XP repair console produced some kind of "could

not enumerate" error, so I couldn't see any files at all. CHKDSK was

unable to recover the file system. In desperation I tried a FIXBOOT,

hoping that it would work much like SYS.COM in a Win9x machine. That

is, I was hoping that FIXBOOT would fix the boot files, eg NTLDR and

whatever else was required. Instead, AFAICT, FIXBOOT just trashed the

boot sector. :-(

BTW, I had no software tools with me at this time, only an XP CD.

> [snip]

>

>>

>> So what was wrong? I looked closely at the boot sector again and found

>> that it was a Win9x boot sector, ie there were references to IO.SYS,

>> MSDOS.SYS and WINBOOT.SYS, but no reference to NTLDR. WTF!

>

>Ok, but since i don't know that there normally is, i mentioned

>the above just in case.

AFAICT, the original problem was damage to the first copy of the FAT.

This was repaired by Scandisk. Both NTxxx files were intact. In a

Win98 box I was able to see the NTxxx files as well as autoexec.bat

and config.sys. The last two files had sizes of 0. IIRC io.sys and

msdos.sys were also there, and both also had file sizes of 0.

After I had the drive booting in the original machine, I ran Seagate's

SeaTools for DOS hard disc diagnostic. It found 6 bad sectors which it

was able to repair. A subsequent check with SmartUDM reported 56

reallocated sectors, suggesting that the drive may be on its way out.

See http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/SmartUDM/40GB.RPT

Coincidentally, both case #1 and case #2 had problems with bad sectors

on Seagate Barracuda 40GB hard discs.

- Franc Zabkar

--

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

March 16, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 05:35:07 -0400, "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com>

put finger to keyboard and composed:

>"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

>news:ia9jt35o6fi1rrjkqfvm3p0cuskn84aohj@4ax.com...

>| Case #1

>| -------

>|

>| The PC with the NTFS partition had an inaccessible registry file,

>| c:\windows\system32\config\system. It couldn't be deleted, copied, or

>| renamed, ...

>|

>| CHKDSK found many problems, including an MFT issue, all of which were fixed.

> That error seems to indicate corruption within the streams and other file

>handling. Did the computer get rapidly shut off by power disruption, or

>perhaps suffered power flucuations?

I believe it just failed to power up one morning. Seagate's SeaTools

for DOS found lots of bad sectors on the HD but managed to repair them

all. I suspect that the drive is on the way out.

>http://support.microsoft.com/kb/308041

>Resources for troubleshooting startup problems in Windows XP

>http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307654

>How to install and use the Recovery Console in Windows XP

>http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/reskit/c28621675.mspx

>XP Professional Resource Kit - Troubleshooting Disks and File Systems

>

>Excerpt http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314835/en-us:

> If you run CHKDSK online, the code that actually performs the verification

>resides in utility DLLs, for example Untfs.dll and Ufat.dll. The

>verification routines that CHKDSK invokes are the same routines that run

>when a volume is verified through the Windows Explorer or Disk Management

>graphical user interface.

> However, if CHKDSK is scheduled to run when the computer restarts, the

>binary module that contains the verification code is Autochk.exe, a native

>Windows program. Because Autochk.exe runs early in the computer's startup

>sequence, Autochk.exe does not have the benefit of virtual memory or of

>other Win32 services.

> Autochk.exe generates the same kind of text output that the Chkdsk.exe

>utility DLLs generate.

I notice that the recovery console version of CHKDSK has only two

command line options whereas the "online" version has a lot more.

>NOTE where the information is obtained from/used.

>

> Microsoft Windows 2000 uses the NTFS file system version 3.0, and Windows

>XP uses the NTFS file system version 3.1.

>The MBR created by a running Windows 2000 or XP OS (specifically Disk

>Management) when used to install a completely blank hard drive on your

>system; includes details about the Win 2k/XP *Disk Signature bytes*!

>http://thestarman.pcministry.com/asm/mbr/NTFSBR.htm

>http://thestarman.pcministry.com/asm/mbr/NTLDR.htm

>http://thestarman.pcministry.com/asm/mbr/ntFAT32BR.htm

The last article would have been useful for case #2. I discovered the

same information the hard way, by installing XP onto a Win9x FAT32

volume.

>| Case #2

>| -------

>|

>| ... I now tried

>| FIXMBR. This command warned me that the MBR contained unknown or

>| damaged code, so I went ahead and allowed it to refresh the code. It

>| reported success but when I ran FIXMBR a second time, it still

>| complained of unknown or damaged code.

>

> First I would question whether you cold rebooted between the two FIXMBR

>[FIXMBR {ugh} which I found to be questionable when using] trys.

I don't think I did.

>Second:

>http://support.microsoft.com/kb/300415/ - Diskpart Command-Line Utility

IIRC, DISKPART, when executed from the recovery console, only gives

you the option of adding or deleting a partition.

>Third, did you use the proper commandline syntax for the tools?

>

>http://support.microsoft.com/kb/247575/EN-US

>Chkdsk Does Not Use Backup Boot Sector to Fix Corrupted FAT32 Boot Sector

I found this article *after* I had already done what it suggested. In

any case the backup boot sector still had to be patched.

>http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/reskit/z03c621675.mspx

>XP Professional Resource Kit - Tools for Troubleshooting

That's a good resource.

> You're dealing with the wonders of Microsoft and NT5.1 there. Another

>question would be whether the newest versions of those tools were used.

I didn't check that.

> But I must say that personally, I generally try to use other's tools rather

>than Microsoft's..

Well, I'd be reluctant to use Fixboot ever again.

> There are other disk tools which seem to work better/easier with NTFS and

>NT5 file systems. Check out Testdisk, HDAT, and MHDD.

>http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk_Download - now at version 6.9

>http://hddguru.com/

>http://hddguru.com/content/en/software/2005.10.02-MHDD/

>http://www.hdat2.com/

I think I downloaded these last time we discussed NTFS in m.p.w.g_d.

In the present case, the only tools that I needed for patching the

FAT32 boot sector were Debug, Copy, and Edit, although I could have

done it all with just Debug. Scandisk fixed the FAT. Wherever possible

I try to get by with the available tools because I never know what the

customer has.

>BTW Franc, you're part of the reason I posted that link for the non-GUI

>Microsoft OS in here. Though you might want to get in on the ground floor of

>what will likely translate to the nex-gen/new processor base coding, for

>what may be used in the non-legacy Windows. Kinda like the old DOS days and

>downloading betas from Microsoft's BBS before it turned into the monster it

>is ... (now if only they were paying the beta testers.. hahaha)

Sorry, I'm going to try Linux instead ... eventually.

- Franc Zabkar

--

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

March 16, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

news:fpsot31cqbpk9hqca2pljhbums5dveqg99@4ax.com...

| On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 05:35:07 -0400, "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com>

| put finger to keyboard and composed:

|

| >"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

| >news:ia9jt35o6fi1rrjkqfvm3p0cuskn84aohj@4ax.com...

|

| >| Case #1

| >| -------

| >|

| >| The PC with the NTFS partition had an inaccessible registry file,

| >| c:\windows\system32\config\system. It couldn't be deleted, copied, or

| >| renamed, ...

| >|

| >| CHKDSK found many problems, including an MFT issue, all of which were

fixed.

|

| > That error seems to indicate corruption within the streams and other

file

| >handling. Did the computer get rapidly shut off by power disruption, or

| >perhaps suffered power flucuations?

|

| I believe it just failed to power up one morning. Seagate's SeaTools

| for DOS found lots of bad sectors on the HD but managed to repair them

| all. I suspect that the drive is on the way out.

Judging by what you posted to ... et al [this date], I would suspect the

same. Seems strange though that two Seagate 40gigs would go out at

approximately the same time on separate computers.

|

| >http://support.microsoft.com/kb/308041

| >Resources for troubleshooting startup problems in Windows XP

| >http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307654

| >How to install and use the Recovery Console in Windows XP

|

>http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/reskit/c28621675.mspx

| >XP Professional Resource Kit - Troubleshooting Disks and File Systems

| >

| >Excerpt http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314835/en-us:

|

| > If you run CHKDSK online, the code that actually performs the

verification

| >resides in utility DLLs, for example Untfs.dll and Ufat.dll. The

| >verification routines that CHKDSK invokes are the same routines that run

| >when a volume is verified through the Windows Explorer or Disk Management

| >graphical user interface.

| > However, if CHKDSK is scheduled to run when the computer restarts, the

| >binary module that contains the verification code is Autochk.exe, a

native

| >Windows program. Because Autochk.exe runs early in the computer's startup

| >sequence, Autochk.exe does not have the benefit of virtual memory or of

| >other Win32 services.

| > Autochk.exe generates the same kind of text output that the Chkdsk.exe

| >utility DLLs generate.

|

| I notice that the recovery console version of CHKDSK has only two

| command line options whereas the "online" version has a lot more.

That's always been the complaint, the recovery console is sadly lacking in

good tools and abilities. It can be tweaked a bit, but I still think there

are better ways.

|

| >NOTE where the information is obtained from/used.

| >

| > Microsoft Windows 2000 uses the NTFS file system version 3.0, and

Windows

| >XP uses the NTFS file system version 3.1.

| >The MBR created by a running Windows 2000 or XP OS (specifically Disk

| >Management) when used to install a completely blank hard drive on your

| >system; includes details about the Win 2k/XP *Disk Signature bytes*!

|

| >http://thestarman.pcministry.com/asm/mbr/NTFSBR.htm

| >http://thestarman.pcministry.com/asm/mbr/NTLDR.htm

| >http://thestarman.pcministry.com/asm/mbr/ntFAT32BR.htm

|

| The last article would have been useful for case #2. I discovered the

| same information the hard way, by installing XP onto a Win9x FAT32

| volume.

Well, now you have it, AND have confirmed what needs done.

|

| >| Case #2

| >| -------

| >|

| >| ... I now tried

| >| FIXMBR. This command warned me that the MBR contained unknown or

| >| damaged code, so I went ahead and allowed it to refresh the code. It

| >| reported success but when I ran FIXMBR a second time, it still

| >| complained of unknown or damaged code.

| >

| > First I would question whether you cold rebooted between the two FIXMBR

| >[FIXMBR {ugh} which I found to be questionable when using] trys.

|

| I don't think I did.

Kind of like fdisking a drive, gotta reboot.

|

| >Second:

| >http://support.microsoft.com/kb/300415/ - Diskpart Command-Line Utility

|

| IIRC, DISKPART, when executed from the recovery console, only gives

| you the option of adding or deleting a partition.

|

| >Third, did you use the proper commandline syntax for the tools?

| >

| >http://support.microsoft.com/kb/247575/EN-US

| >Chkdsk Does Not Use Backup Boot Sector to Fix Corrupted FAT32 Boot Sector

|

| I found this article *after* I had already done what it suggested. In

| any case the backup boot sector still had to be patched.

Oh well, now you know.

|

>http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/reskit/z03c621675.msp

x

| >XP Professional Resource Kit - Tools for Troubleshooting

|

| That's a good resource.

|

| > You're dealing with the wonders of Microsoft and NT5.1 there. Another

| >question would be whether the newest versions of those tools were used.

|

| I didn't check that.

Try on the Reskit area, and TechNet.

|

| > But I must say that personally, I generally try to use other's tools

rather

| >than Microsoft's..

|

| Well, I'd be reluctant to use Fixboot ever again.

Oh, I NEVER will again.

|

| > There are other disk tools which seem to work better/easier with NTFS

and

| >NT5 file systems. Check out Testdisk, HDAT, and MHDD.

|

| >http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk_Download - now at version 6.9

| >http://hddguru.com/

| >http://hddguru.com/content/en/software/2005.10.02-MHDD/

| >http://www.hdat2.com/

|

| I think I downloaded these last time we discussed NTFS in m.p.w.g_d.

| In the present case, the only tools that I needed for patching the

| FAT32 boot sector were Debug, Copy, and Edit, although I could have

| done it all with just Debug. Scandisk fixed the FAT. Wherever possible

| I try to get by with the available tools because I never know what the

| customer has.

Okay, I carry[ied] three floppy disk cases [test tools, drive tools, and

boot floppies], XP CD, and a Live CD with me when out servicing [also a

floppy drive and CDROM drive and cables].

But your right, keeping the mind fresh with the old tried and true

techniques, gives you the ability to just sit down at the problem computer

and work away.

You're a pretty smart guy. I can't even remember all those techniques

anymore. Heck those links came from mht files I saved locally just so I can

refresh my memory.

|

| >BTW Franc, you're part of the reason I posted that link for the non-GUI

| >Microsoft OS in here. Though you might want to get in on the ground floor

of

| >what will likely translate to the nex-gen/new processor base coding, for

| >what may be used in the non-legacy Windows. Kinda like the old DOS days

and

| >downloading betas from Microsoft's BBS before it turned into the monster

it

| >is ... (now if only they were paying the beta testers.. hahaha)

|

| Sorry, I'm going to try Linux instead ... eventually.

Well, progress has been made, they might surprise you. You'll LOVE the

command line abilities.

|

| - Franc Zabkar

| --

| Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

March 16, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 02:49:15 -0400, "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com>

put finger to keyboard and composed:

>"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

>news:fpsot31cqbpk9hqca2pljhbums5dveqg99@4ax.com...

>| Well, I'd be reluctant to use Fixboot ever again.

>

> Oh, I NEVER will again.

There are quite a few cases of this FIXBOOT/FAT12 problem in the

Google Groups archives.

- Franc Zabkar

--

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

March 16, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:30:23 +1100, Franc Zabkar

<fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> put finger to keyboard and composed:

>On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 02:49:15 -0400, "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com>

>put finger to keyboard and composed:

>

>>"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

>>news:fpsot31cqbpk9hqca2pljhbums5dveqg99@4ax.com...

>

>>| Well, I'd be reluctant to use Fixboot ever again.

>>

>> Oh, I NEVER will again.

>

>There are quite a few cases of this FIXBOOT/FAT12 problem in the

>Google Groups archives.

BTW, I can't be absolutely certain, but IIRC the FAT12 boot sector,

which was written by FIXBOOT from the recovery console, had an

MSDOS5.0 signature. I don't think this same signature exists in

AUTOCHK.EXE.

- Franc Zabkar

--

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

March 16, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

Fascinating stuff Frank, I appreciate the detail, not that I actually work in

that area

I used to use an old Radio Shack Model 4 and had some nifty software, that

allowed me to view the floppy disk data track by track, it also allowed me to

alter that data or (correct it), I think it was called superzap or something

along that line, can't find anything like it for todays computers.

Course back then it was using NEWDOS and or LDOS , nothing like windows of

today.

"Franc Zabkar" wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 05:00:48 +0100, "... et al."

> <look@sig.bcause.this.is.invalid> put finger to keyboard and composed:

>

> >Franc Zabkar wrote:

> >

> >> I recently had to repair file system corruption for two XP users, one

> >> with a FAT32 partition, the other with NTFS. Unfortunately I have

> >> little experience with XP so I struggled quite a bit. Anyway I

> >> discovered that Microsoft's disc repair tools were flawed in several

> >> ways.

> >>

> >

> >> Case #2

> >> -------

> >>

> >> The PC with the FAT32 partition could not boot. It produced a "missing

> >> NTLDR" error. This suggested that the MBR and boot sector were

> >> probably OK, and that the error was somewhere in the FATs or directory

> >> structure. I booted into the repair console of an XP CD and tried a

> >

> > [snip]

> >

> >>

> >> Now I was getting desperate. I took the USB drive to my Windows 98SE

> >> box and to my surprise Explorer was able to see the entire drive with

> >> all the original files apparently still intact! SCANDISK determined

> >

> >Because "I have little experience with XP" .. i don't see that

> >you mention that the [NTLdr] file ( and the [NTDetect.com] file )

> >is there or that you tried with a new copy off the WinXP CD in

> >case of corruption.

>

> A DIR from within the XP repair console produced some kind of "could

> not enumerate" error, so I couldn't see any files at all. CHKDSK was

> unable to recover the file system. In desperation I tried a FIXBOOT,

> hoping that it would work much like SYS.COM in a Win9x machine. That

> is, I was hoping that FIXBOOT would fix the boot files, eg NTLDR and

> whatever else was required. Instead, AFAICT, FIXBOOT just trashed the

> boot sector. :-(

>

> BTW, I had no software tools with me at this time, only an XP CD.

>

> > [snip]

> >

> >>

> >> So what was wrong? I looked closely at the boot sector again and found

> >> that it was a Win9x boot sector, ie there were references to IO.SYS,

> >> MSDOS.SYS and WINBOOT.SYS, but no reference to NTLDR. WTF!

> >

> >Ok, but since i don't know that there normally is, i mentioned

> >the above just in case.

>

> AFAICT, the original problem was damage to the first copy of the FAT.

> This was repaired by Scandisk. Both NTxxx files were intact. In a

> Win98 box I was able to see the NTxxx files as well as autoexec.bat

> and config.sys. The last two files had sizes of 0. IIRC io.sys and

> msdos.sys were also there, and both also had file sizes of 0.

>

> After I had the drive booting in the original machine, I ran Seagate's

> SeaTools for DOS hard disc diagnostic. It found 6 bad sectors which it

> was able to repair. A subsequent check with SmartUDM reported 56

> reallocated sectors, suggesting that the drive may be on its way out.

>

> See http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/SmartUDM/40GB.RPT

>

> Coincidentally, both case #1 and case #2 had problems with bad sectors

> on Seagate Barracuda 40GB hard discs.

>

> - Franc Zabkar

> --

> Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

>

March 17, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 02:49:15 -0400, "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com>

put finger to keyboard and composed:

>"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

>news:fpsot31cqbpk9hqca2pljhbums5dveqg99@4ax.com...

>| On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 05:35:07 -0400, "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com>

>| put finger to keyboard and composed:

>|

>| >"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

>| >news:ia9jt35o6fi1rrjkqfvm3p0cuskn84aohj@4ax.com...

>| >| ... I now tried

>| >| FIXMBR. This command warned me that the MBR contained unknown or

>| >| damaged code, so I went ahead and allowed it to refresh the code. It

>| >| reported success but when I ran FIXMBR a second time, it still

>| >| complained of unknown or damaged code.

>| >

>| > First I would question whether you cold rebooted between the two FIXMBR

>| >[FIXMBR {ugh} which I found to be questionable when using] trys.

>|

>| I don't think I did.

>

> Kind of like fdisking a drive, gotta reboot.

I can see why you would need to reboot before any newly created

partitions and logical drives would be detected, but I can't see why

you would need to do the same after refreshing the code in the MBR.

AFAIK, the MBR code doesn't remain in RAM after booting (it is

overwritten by the active partition's boot sector), so FIXMBR would

always need to look for it on the HD, not in memory.

See http://www.dewassoc.com/kbase/hard_drives/master_boot_record.htm

====================================================================

Once the BIOS identifies its target boot drive, then it looks for boot

information to start the operating system boot process. If it is

searching a hard disk, it looks for a master boot record at cylinder

0, head 0, sector 1, the first sector on the disk.

If a Master Boot Record is found, it is read into memory at location

0000:7c00 and INT 19 jumps to memory location 0000:7c00 ... . At this

point, the BIOS attempts to move control of the computer from the BIOS

to the actual operating system.

Next, the small program in the Master Boot Record will attempt to

locate an active (bootable) partition in the hard drives partition

table. If such a partition is found, the boot sector of that partition

is also read into memory at location 0000:7C00 and then MBR program

itself jumps to memory location 0000:7C00.

====================================================================

- Franc Zabkar

--

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

March 17, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

news:p92rt3lvh6600hgkjtu27cqtai9r34ccm5@4ax.com...

| On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:30:23 +1100, Franc Zabkar

| <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> put finger to keyboard and composed:

|

| >On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 02:49:15 -0400, "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com>

| >put finger to keyboard and composed:

| >

| >>"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

| >>news:fpsot31cqbpk9hqca2pljhbums5dveqg99@4ax.com...

| >

| >>| Well, I'd be reluctant to use Fixboot ever again.

| >>

| >> Oh, I NEVER will again.

| >

| >There are quite a few cases of this FIXBOOT/FAT12 problem in the

| >Google Groups archives.

|

| BTW, I can't be absolutely certain, but IIRC the FAT12 boot sector,

| which was written by FIXBOOT from the recovery console, had an

| MSDOS5.0 signature. I don't think this same signature exists in

| AUTOCHK.EXE.

|

| - Franc Zabkar

| --

| Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

I sent you, from the master site address, some zipped *readable text* of a

few files from XP PRO which might be of interest you [though you probably

already did]. Look at the command sequences, messages, and other. At

minimum, they give some search strings to work from when playing around in

XP and a hexeditor.

* MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

March 17, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

news:lfmrt31gsn197oq233venjp258m04h2okj@4ax.com...

| On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 02:49:15 -0400, "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com>

| put finger to keyboard and composed:

|

| >"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

| >news:fpsot31cqbpk9hqca2pljhbums5dveqg99@4ax.com...

|

| >| On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 05:35:07 -0400, "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com>

| >| put finger to keyboard and composed:

| >|

| >| >"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

| >| >news:ia9jt35o6fi1rrjkqfvm3p0cuskn84aohj@4ax.com...

|

| >| >| ... I now tried

| >| >| FIXMBR. This command warned me that the MBR contained unknown or

| >| >| damaged code, so I went ahead and allowed it to refresh the code. It

| >| >| reported success but when I ran FIXMBR a second time, it still

| >| >| complained of unknown or damaged code.

| >| >

| >| > First I would question whether you cold rebooted between the two

FIXMBR

| >| >[FIXMBR {ugh} which I found to be questionable when using] trys.

| >|

| >| I don't think I did.

| >

| > Kind of like fdisking a drive, gotta reboot.

|

| I can see why you would need to reboot before any newly created

| partitions and logical drives would be detected, but I can't see why

| you would need to do the same after refreshing the code in the MBR.

| AFAIK, the MBR code doesn't remain in RAM after booting (it is

| overwritten by the active partition's boot sector), so FIXMBR would

| always need to look for it on the HD, not in memory.

|

| See http://www.dewassoc.com/kbase/hard_drives/master_boot_record.htm

|

| ====================================================================

| Once the BIOS identifies its target boot drive, then it looks for boot

| information to start the operating system boot process. If it is

| searching a hard disk, it looks for a master boot record at cylinder

| 0, head 0, sector 1, the first sector on the disk.

|

| If a Master Boot Record is found, it is read into memory at location

| 0000:7c00 and INT 19 jumps to memory location 0000:7c00 ... . At this

| point, the BIOS attempts to move control of the computer from the BIOS

| to the actual operating system.

|

| Next, the small program in the Master Boot Record will attempt to

| locate an active (bootable) partition in the hard drives partition

| table. If such a partition is found, the boot sector of that partition

| is also read into memory at location 0000:7C00 and then MBR program

| itself jumps to memory location 0000:7C00.

| ====================================================================

|

| - Franc Zabkar

| --

| Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

And how does it do this when it has already been accessed upon bootup, and

found as faulty. The disk couldn't be accessed properly, so how can it now,

when the code and jumps were wrong to start with and have not been refreshed

yet.. You could see it with an editor, but the BIOS has already transferred

activity elsewhere [particularly in NT].

Are you indicating that there were no errors when attempting to access the

hard disk after doing so?

______

* MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

----------

March 17, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

One of the worst "quirks" about Scandisk in WinXP is just how limited it is,

both in choices, and in logging capabilities (like in comparison to any

Win9x). It really sucks. No real selection choices, and NO real logs

(except sometimes some stuff can be found in Event Viewer - after you sort

it all out, and AFTER it has replaced whatever it felt like, carte blanche,

no questions asked). SFC in WinXP is a step backwards, in many respects.

March 17, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:u2NfJF$hIHA.4764@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

| One of the worst "quirks" about Scandisk in WinXP is just how limited it

is,

| both in choices, and in logging capabilities (like in comparison to any

| Win9x). It really sucks. No real selection choices, and NO real logs

| (except sometimes some stuff can be found in Event Viewer - after you sort

| it all out, and AFTER it has replaced whatever it felt like, carte

blanche,

| no questions asked). SFC in WinXP is a step backwards, in many respects.

|

I would tend to agree, but then even in Win9X I preferred to use DiskTune

and DiskMinder [from Nuts and Bolts] or other tools, at least until they

stopped working correctly [the suite of tools; the disk tools still work,

just tried that during the last test period].

I think, though, we tend to forget that XP was created to allow regular

non-techie people to use NT, and was limited to ensure they didn't mess up

to much. Kind of like dumbing down the control, and placing it in

Microsoft's hands... just look at VISTA, even more *out of your hands*

unless you know what to do.

* MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

March 17, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

MEB wrote:

> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message

> news:u2NfJF$hIHA.4764@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>> One of the worst "quirks" about Scandisk in WinXP is just how limited it

>> is,

>> both in choices, and in logging capabilities (like in comparison to any

>> Win9x). It really sucks. No real selection choices, and NO real logs

>> (except sometimes some stuff can be found in Event Viewer - after you

>> sort

>> it all out, and AFTER it has replaced whatever it felt like, carte

>> blanche,

>> no questions asked). SFC in WinXP is a step backwards, in many

>> respects.

>

> I would tend to agree, but then even in Win9X I preferred to use DiskTune

> and DiskMinder [from Nuts and Bolts] or other tools, at least until they

> stopped working correctly [the suite of tools; the disk tools still work,

> just tried that during the last test period].

>

> I think, though, we tend to forget that XP was created to allow regular

> non-techie people to use NT, and was limited to ensure they didn't mess up

> too much. Kind of like dumbing down the control, and placing it in

> Microsoft's hands... just look at VISTA, even more *out of your hands*

> unless you know what to do.

Yeah, tell me about it. :-)

March 17, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

Franc Zabkar wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 05:00:48 +0100, "... et al."

> <look@sig.bcause.this.is.invalid> put finger to keyboard and composed:

>

>> Franc Zabkar wrote:

>>

>>> I recently had to repair file system corruption for two XP users, one

>>> with a FAT32 partition, the other with NTFS. Unfortunately I have

>>> little experience with XP so I struggled quite a bit. Anyway I

>>> discovered that Microsoft's disc repair tools were flawed in several

>>> ways.

>>>

>>

>>> Case #2

>>> -------

>>>

>>> The PC with the FAT32 partition could not boot. It produced a "missing

>>> NTLDR" error. This suggested that the MBR and boot sector were

>>> probably OK, and that the error was somewhere in the FATs or directory

>>> structure. I booted into the repair console of an XP CD and tried a

>> [snip]

>>

>>> Now I was getting desperate. I took the USB drive to my Windows 98SE

>>> box and to my surprise Explorer was able to see the entire drive with

>>> all the original files apparently still intact! SCANDISK determined

>> Because "I have little experience with XP" .. i don't see that

>> you mention that the [NTLdr] file ( and the [NTDetect.com] file )

>> is there or that you tried with a new copy off the WinXP CD in

>> case of corruption.

>

> A DIR from within the XP repair console produced some kind of "could

> not enumerate" error, so I couldn't see any files at all. CHKDSK was

(yes, sorry. I snipped a line to much earlier perhaps.)

> unable to recover the file system. In desperation I tried a FIXBOOT,

> hoping that it would work much like SYS.COM in a Win9x machine. That

> is, I was hoping that FIXBOOT would fix the boot files, eg NTLDR and

> whatever else was required. Instead, AFAICT, FIXBOOT just trashed the

> boot sector. :-(

>

> BTW, I had no software tools with me at this time, only an XP CD.

>

>> [snip]

>>

>>> So what was wrong? I looked closely at the boot sector again and found

>>> that it was a Win9x boot sector, ie there were references to IO.SYS,

>>> MSDOS.SYS and WINBOOT.SYS, but no reference to NTLDR. WTF!

>> Ok, but since i don't know that there normally is, i mentioned

>> the above just in case.

>

> AFAICT, the original problem was damage to the first copy of the FAT.

> This was repaired by Scandisk. Both NTxxx files were intact. In a

> Win98 box I was able to see the NTxxx files as well as autoexec.bat

> and config.sys. The last two files had sizes of 0. IIRC io.sys and

> msdos.sys were also there, and both also had file sizes of 0.

>

I read all the above and don't have anything useful to add. It's

interesting and i learn from reading your procedures and

following the links you and MEB posts (as usual). Thanks.

> After I had the drive booting in the original machine, I ran Seagate's

> SeaTools for DOS hard disc diagnostic. It found 6 bad sectors which it

> was able to repair. A subsequent check with SmartUDM reported 56

> reallocated sectors, suggesting that the drive may be on its way out.

>

> See http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/SmartUDM/40GB.RPT

>

> Coincidentally, both case #1 and case #2 had problems with bad sectors

> on Seagate Barracuda 40GB hard discs.

>

Perhaps suggesting, but perhaps not necessarily. I have a 60 GB

Seagate HDD and i checked it with a different SMART viewing

program, DiskCheckup, in October 1996. It had 5 reallocated

sectors then and it still have 5 when i checked it with SMARTUDM

today. And that HDD have been used for several hours almost daily

in the 17 months in between.

BTW, i just downloaded SMARTUDM. It unarchived fine and the

DOS-program runs fine. However, the four text-files in the

archive show mostly as gibberish .. i tried a few different

text-editors, they all show it the same .. is it the same for you?

--

Nah-ah. I'm staying out of this. ... Now, here's my opinion.

Please followup in the newsgroup.

E-mail address is invalid due to spam-control.

March 17, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

Ooops, I meant SFC below, sorry about that, and corrected below.

> One of the worst "quirks" about SFC in WinXP is just how limited it is,

> both in choices, and in logging capabilities (like in comparison to any

> Win9x). It really sucks. No real selection choices, and NO real logs

> (except sometimes some stuff can be found in Event Viewer - after you sort

> it all out, and AFTER it has replaced whatever it felt like, carte

> blanche,

> no questions asked). SFC in WinXP is a step backwards, in many respects.

March 17, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

Ooops, I meant SFC below, MEB. Sorry about that, and corrected below.

Bill in Co. wrote:

> MEB wrote:

>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message

>> news:u2NfJF$hIHA.4764@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>> One of the worst "quirks" about SFC in WinXP is just how limited it is,

>>> both in choices, and in logging capabilities (like in comparison to any

>>> Win9x). It really sucks. No real selection choices, and NO real

>>> logs

>>> (except sometimes some stuff can be found in Event Viewer - after you

>>> sort it all out, and AFTER it has replaced whatever it felt like, carte

>>> blanche,

>>> no questions asked). SFC in WinXP is a step backwards, in many

>>> respects.

>>

>> I would tend to agree, but then even in Win9X I preferred to use DiskTune

>> and DiskMinder [from Nuts and Bolts] or other tools, at least until they

>> stopped working correctly [the suite of tools; the disk tools still work,

>> just tried that during the last test period].

>>

>> I think, though, we tend to forget that XP was created to allow regular

>> non-techie people to use NT, and was limited to ensure they didn't mess

>> up

>> too much. Kind of like dumbing down the control, and placing it in

>> Microsoft's hands... just look at VISTA, even more *out of your hands*

>> unless you know what to do.

>

> Yeah, tell me about it. :-)

March 17, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:09:47 +0100, "... et al."

<look@sig.bcause.this.is.invalid> put finger to keyboard and composed:

>Franc Zabkar wrote:

>> After I had the drive booting in the original machine, I ran Seagate's

>> SeaTools for DOS hard disc diagnostic. It found 6 bad sectors which it

>> was able to repair. A subsequent check with SmartUDM reported 56

>> reallocated sectors, suggesting that the drive may be on its way out.

>>

>> See http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/SmartUDM/40GB.RPT

>>

>> Coincidentally, both case #1 and case #2 had problems with bad sectors

>> on Seagate Barracuda 40GB hard discs.

>>

>

>Perhaps suggesting, but perhaps not necessarily. I have a 60 GB

>Seagate HDD and i checked it with a different SMART viewing

>program, DiskCheckup, in October 1996. It had 5 reallocated

>sectors then and it still have 5 when i checked it with SMARTUDM

>today. And that HDD have been used for several hours almost daily

>in the 17 months in between.

I had a similar experience with a Seagate 13GB drive. It was carrying

lots of bad sectors for several years until I recently took it out

service after it started to grow new defects on a weekly basis. The

drive had one "pending" sector for its entire life. This sector never

had a chance to be reallocated because a format had marked it as bad

in the FAT and Windows knew not to write to it ever again.

>BTW, i just downloaded SMARTUDM. It unarchived fine and the

>DOS-program runs fine. However, the four text-files in the

>archive show mostly as gibberish .. i tried a few different

>text-editors, they all show it the same .. is it the same for you?

The language is Russian. The text files display correctly in my

browser, Opera, when I select "Cyrillic codepage 866" encoding.

Once I do this, I can cut and paste the text into Google's translator:

http://translate.google.com/translate_t

======================================================================

excerpt from smartfaq.txt

======================================================================

Q1: What is S.M.A.R.T.?

A1: Technology S.M.A.R.T. -- Self-Monitoring, Analysis and Reporting

Technology (from the English. "Technology Samodiagnostiki, Analysis

and Father - ta ") - was designed to improve the reliability and

safety data on hard disks. In most cases, the SMART-compatible

perceptions device to precede the appearance of the most likely

mistakes, thereby allowing the user to backup Data and / or completely

replace its drive to break down.

======================================================================

- Franc Zabkar

--

Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

March 17, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

On 14 Mar, 09:35, "MEB" <meb@not h...@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> There are other disk tools which seem to work better/easier with NTFS and

> NT5 file systems. Check out Testdisk, HDAT, and MHDD.http://www.cgsecurity..org/wiki/TestDisk_Download- now at version 6.9http://hddguru.com/http://hddguru.com/content/en/software/2005.10.02-MHDD/http://www.hdat2.com/

>

> BTW Franc, you're part of the reason I posted that link for the non-GUI

> Microsoft OS in here.

which link? you mean the links to DOS programs?

Though you might want to get in on the ground floor of

> what will likely translate to the nex-gen/new processor base coding, for

> what may be used in the non-legacy Windows. Kinda like the old DOS days and

> downloading betas from Microsoft's BBS before it turned into the monster it

> is ... (now if only they were paying the beta testers.. hahaha)

>

Just for the hell of it. How do you connect to the microsoft BBS?

I know it involves a prog like hyperterminal, and a telephone number.

But I cannot even find a telephone number.

March 17, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

<jameshanley39@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:c7900ccd-3502-4876-a223-0b36f4c032e0@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...

On 14 Mar, 09:35, "MEB" <meb@not h...@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> There are other disk tools which seem to work better/easier with NTFS and

> NT5 file systems. Check out Testdisk, HDAT, and

MHDD.http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk_Download- now at version

6.9http://hddguru.com/http://hddguru.com/content/en/software/2005.10.02-MHDD

/http://www.hdat2.com/

>

> BTW Franc, you're part of the reason I posted that link for the non-GUI

> Microsoft OS in here.

| which link? you mean the links to DOS programs?

PER PRIOR POST:

Re: For the Geeks - Microsoft's non-Windows OS Singularity

Interested in testing Microsoft's new non-Windows OS which uses "completely

new" {non-legacy} code?

RDK 1.1 - version 6709

Singularity

http://www.codeplex.com/singularity

http://research.microsoft.com/os/singularity/

- MEB

| Though you might want to get in on the ground floor of

> what will likely translate to the nex-gen/new processor base coding, for

> what may be used in the non-legacy Windows. Kinda like the old DOS days

and

> downloading betas from Microsoft's BBS before it turned into the monster

it

> is ... (now if only they were paying the beta testers.. hahaha)

>

| Just for the hell of it. How do you connect to the microsoft BBS?

| I know it involves a prog like hyperterminal, and a telephone number.

| But I cannot even find a telephone number.

That was WAY back, before the public Internet.... ARPANET was the ONLY

thing going at that time, except for people {like myself} who ran a BBS

{Bulletin Board System}.

http://www.dei.isep.ipp.pt/docs/arpa.html

http://www.livinginternet.com/i/ii_arpanet.htm

* MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

March 17, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

I got it [though good to correct it so no-one pounces on it]... but yeah

scandisk isn't an option in XP, its handled by AUTOCHK, AUTOFMT, Disk

Management and Disk Defragmenter, and the related HAL and DLLs.

It would [sFC - restore points - system file protection] open a whole

nuther cano'worms...

* MEB

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

March 18, 2008

Re: Quirks in Scandisk, Chkdsk, Fixmbr, Fixboot

Franc Zabkar wrote:

> "... et al." put finger to keyboard and composed:

>

>> BTW, i just downloaded SMARTUDM. It unarchived fine and the

>> DOS-program runs fine. However, the four text-files in the

>> archive show mostly as gibberish .. i tried a few different

>> text-editors, they all show it the same .. is it the same for you?

>

> The language is Russian. The text files display correctly in my

> browser, Opera, when I select "Cyrillic codepage 866" encoding.

It was strange that the name of one of the files is

'WHATSNEW.TXT', but that the contents are in Cyrillic letters.

But yes, i can see it in a web-browser here also. Easy way to

test various 'Character Encodings'. Thanks.

>

> Once I do this, I can cut and paste the text into Google's translator:

> http://translate.google.com/translate_t

>

> ======================================================================

> excerpt from smartfaq.txt

> ======================================================================

> Q1: What is S.M.A.R.T.?

> A1: Technology S.M.A.R.T. -- Self-Monitoring, Analysis and Reporting

> Technology (from the English. "Technology Samodiagnostiki, Analysis

> and Father - ta ") - was designed to improve the reliability and

> safety data on hard disks. In most cases, the SMART-compatible

> perceptions device to precede the appearance of the most likely

> mistakes, thereby allowing the user to backup Data and / or completely

> replace its drive to break down.

> ======================================================================

>

> - Franc Zabkar

--

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