Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

[Guest w-cubed]

Yes what a shock I sold a new Windpows Server 2008 with a tape unit in it.

Only to find no NTBACKUP and the new Backup product just does not do Tape.

 

I have not been seeing this huge change in any press releases

 

I have hunted around and I cannot find an affordable or practical

replacement for the LTO4 tape backup unit. What else streams at 120MB/s and

stores 1.6TB of data? It needs to be at under $200 a unit and I need at

least 30 backup devices to support the backup program policy in place.

 

I am for the first time in 28 years in the computer industry having to

source a third party backup tool to backup a server. This is wrong very

wrong!

 

I have looked at the advice of many and switched on Remote Storage and

copied teh old NTBACKUP but still cannot backup to tape. Yes Microsoft have

provided a cut down version of NTBACKUP to allow you to restor data from old

2000 and 2003 server backups but it is read only.

 

Can any one resolve this issue for me - Either tell me how to get NYBACKUP

working or provide another tool from microsoft that will backup these servers.

 

I am not keen to use third party products and believe that all Operating

systems should come with a basic and practical facility to backup. I do not

consider the new backup practical as it is to costly and does not do Disaster

recovery with of site backup well or affordably

 

Who else is shocked and confused by the move by Microsoft.

 

Microsoft could of atleast delivered the old and the new backups in the

system and allowed users to decide what the wanted to use!!!

[Guest Paul Bergson [MVP-DS]]

Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

 

This has been well advertised by Microsoft. You can backup to disk and then

you run a third party app to copy the disk backup to tape. In our

enterprise we do way more disk to disk backup and then dump to tape then

straight to disk and we aren't running any production 2008 servers. Disk to

tape under conventional means is to slow for us.

 

Microsoft has said for many years, we are not in the tape backup business

but they provide a very slimmed down product that I believe they licensed

from Veritas (I am not 100% positive but pretty sure).

http://technet2.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/en/library/00162c92-a834-43f9-9e8a-71aeb25fa4ad1033.mspx?mfr=true

 

So if you have to use ntbackup then dump your backup to a machine that is

running Windows 2000/2003 and have that machine run ntbackup.

 

--

Paul Bergson

MVP - Directory Services

MCT, MCSE, MCSA, Security+, BS CSci

2008, 2003, 2000 (Early Achiever), NT4

 

http://www.pbbergs.com

 

Please no e-mails, any questions should be posted in the NewsGroup

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

 

"w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:5E68102D-EE3A-42B1-8E1A-E6E7F7241C4F@microsoft.com...

> Yes what a shock I sold a new Windpows Server 2008 with a tape unit in it.

> Only to find no NTBACKUP and the new Backup product just does not do Tape.

>

> I have not been seeing this huge change in any press releases

>

> I have hunted around and I cannot find an affordable or practical

> replacement for the LTO4 tape backup unit. What else streams at 120MB/s

> and

> stores 1.6TB of data? It needs to be at under $200 a unit and I need at

> least 30 backup devices to support the backup program policy in place.

>

> I am for the first time in 28 years in the computer industry having to

> source a third party backup tool to backup a server. This is wrong very

> wrong!

>

> I have looked at the advice of many and switched on Remote Storage and

> copied teh old NTBACKUP but still cannot backup to tape. Yes Microsoft

> have

> provided a cut down version of NTBACKUP to allow you to restor data from

> old

> 2000 and 2003 server backups but it is read only.

>

> Can any one resolve this issue for me - Either tell me how to get

> NYBACKUP

> working or provide another tool from microsoft that will backup these

> servers.

>

> I am not keen to use third party products and believe that all Operating

> systems should come with a basic and practical facility to backup. I do

> not

> consider the new backup practical as it is to costly and does not do

> Disaster

> recovery with of site backup well or affordably

>

> Who else is shocked and confused by the move by Microsoft.

>

> Microsoft could of atleast delivered the old and the new backups in the

> system and allowed users to decide what the wanted to use!!!

[Guest w-cubed]

Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

 

This is ability was a clear posability from the begining and as with you I

understood these options. However many of my customers are small sites

single server many are Windoes server 2003 SBS looking to migrate to 2008.

They just done have a huge server farm with huge disks to backup to. To add

to this the process you suggest is actualy two steps and when you look at it

the passing of 1TB of data across a network to an older 2003 machine then

conduct a tape backup on it its going to take 24 hours. I have worked with

cross network backups in the past and when we start talking Terra bytes we

just lose the plot. To ad to this we are looking to replace the old server

and the disk system in the old server would have to be upgraded to 1 TB. To

get the disk speed to keep up with the 1 TB over night we need a reasonably

fast RAID disk system. The backup system would also require a semilar fast

disk system.

 

These customers dont have SAN systems!!

 

What we are loohing at is very simple -

 

The customer places a type like device into a server and it backs up over

night .

 

They dont wanted complicated double backups to non existing servers

 

Micro soft may have high end users such as your self in mind with what they

have provided but the smaller customers such as my customers the Microsoft

offering is just not practical at all

 

I thank you for your input but it does not get the tape unit working with a

microsoft backup utility. Infact the fact that you suggest that you backup

to tape on a second server clearly indicates you would have the same issue

and still require Tape backup.

 

This in its self tells you that micro soft have a duty of care to maintain

support for tape backup.

 

I would pointn out that Microsoft are not in the RAD disk array market of

server hardware market or even removable hard drive market. Yet what they

deliver affects all of these markets and how we use them.

 

So once again but Im throwing this one back in the pond and sit fishing for

a fish that will do the job

 

Tom

 

"Paul Bergson [MVP-DS]" wrote:

> This has been well advertised by Microsoft. You can backup to disk and then

> you run a third party app to copy the disk backup to tape. In our

> enterprise we do way more disk to disk backup and then dump to tape then

> straight to disk and we aren't running any production 2008 servers. Disk to

> tape under conventional means is to slow for us.

>

> Microsoft has said for many years, we are not in the tape backup business

> but they provide a very slimmed down product that I believe they licensed

> from Veritas (I am not 100% positive but pretty sure).

> http://technet2.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/en/library/00162c92-a834-43f9-9e8a-71aeb25fa4ad1033.mspx?mfr=true

>

> So if you have to use ntbackup then dump your backup to a machine that is

> running Windows 2000/2003 and have that machine run ntbackup.

>

> --

> Paul Bergson

> MVP - Directory Services

> MCT, MCSE, MCSA, Security+, BS CSci

> 2008, 2003, 2000 (Early Achiever), NT4

>

> http://www.pbbergs.com

>

> Please no e-mails, any questions should be posted in the NewsGroup

> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

>

> "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> news:5E68102D-EE3A-42B1-8E1A-E6E7F7241C4F@microsoft.com...

> > Yes what a shock I sold a new Windpows Server 2008 with a tape unit in it.

> > Only to find no NTBACKUP and the new Backup product just does not do Tape.

> >

> > I have not been seeing this huge change in any press releases

> >

> > I have hunted around and I cannot find an affordable or practical

> > replacement for the LTO4 tape backup unit. What else streams at 120MB/s

> > and

> > stores 1.6TB of data? It needs to be at under $200 a unit and I need at

> > least 30 backup devices to support the backup program policy in place.

> >

> > I am for the first time in 28 years in the computer industry having to

> > source a third party backup tool to backup a server. This is wrong very

> > wrong!

> >

> > I have looked at the advice of many and switched on Remote Storage and

> > copied teh old NTBACKUP but still cannot backup to tape. Yes Microsoft

> > have

> > provided a cut down version of NTBACKUP to allow you to restor data from

> > old

> > 2000 and 2003 server backups but it is read only.

> >

> > Can any one resolve this issue for me - Either tell me how to get

> > NYBACKUP

> > working or provide another tool from microsoft that will backup these

> > servers.

> >

> > I am not keen to use third party products and believe that all Operating

> > systems should come with a basic and practical facility to backup. I do

> > not

> > consider the new backup practical as it is to costly and does not do

> > Disaster

> > recovery with of site backup well or affordably

> >

> > Who else is shocked and confused by the move by Microsoft.

> >

> > Microsoft could of atleast delivered the old and the new backups in the

> > system and allowed users to decide what the wanted to use!!!

>

>

>

[Guest Kerry Brown]

Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

 

In a small single server shop several USB drives in a rotation is much less

expensive option than a tape drive that could backup a terabyte. The cost of

each drive is around the same as the cost of a couple of tapes.

 

--

Kerry Brown

MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration

http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/

 

 

 

"w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:DB0145AD-AF5D-46F8-99A8-2B91ECD6AAA9@microsoft.com...

> This is ability was a clear posability from the begining and as with you I

> understood these options. However many of my customers are small sites

> single server many are Windoes server 2003 SBS looking to migrate to 2008.

> They just done have a huge server farm with huge disks to backup to. To

> add

> to this the process you suggest is actualy two steps and when you look at

> it

> the passing of 1TB of data across a network to an older 2003 machine then

> conduct a tape backup on it its going to take 24 hours. I have worked

> with

> cross network backups in the past and when we start talking Terra bytes we

> just lose the plot. To ad to this we are looking to replace the old

> server

> and the disk system in the old server would have to be upgraded to 1 TB.

> To

> get the disk speed to keep up with the 1 TB over night we need a

> reasonably

> fast RAID disk system. The backup system would also require a semilar

> fast

> disk system.

>

> These customers dont have SAN systems!!

>

> What we are loohing at is very simple -

>

> The customer places a type like device into a server and it backs up over

> night .

>

> They dont wanted complicated double backups to non existing servers

>

> Micro soft may have high end users such as your self in mind with what

> they

> have provided but the smaller customers such as my customers the Microsoft

> offering is just not practical at all

>

> I thank you for your input but it does not get the tape unit working with

> a

> microsoft backup utility. Infact the fact that you suggest that you

> backup

> to tape on a second server clearly indicates you would have the same issue

> and still require Tape backup.

>

> This in its self tells you that micro soft have a duty of care to maintain

> support for tape backup.

>

> I would pointn out that Microsoft are not in the RAD disk array market of

> server hardware market or even removable hard drive market. Yet what they

> deliver affects all of these markets and how we use them.

>

> So once again but Im throwing this one back in the pond and sit fishing

> for

> a fish that will do the job

>

> Tom

>

> "Paul Bergson [MVP-DS]" wrote:

>

>> This has been well advertised by Microsoft. You can backup to disk and

>> then

>> you run a third party app to copy the disk backup to tape. In our

>> enterprise we do way more disk to disk backup and then dump to tape then

>> straight to disk and we aren't running any production 2008 servers. Disk

>> to

>> tape under conventional means is to slow for us.

>>

>> Microsoft has said for many years, we are not in the tape backup business

>> but they provide a very slimmed down product that I believe they licensed

>> from Veritas (I am not 100% positive but pretty sure).

>> http://technet2.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/en/library/00162c92-a834-43f9-9e8a-71aeb25fa4ad1033.mspx?mfr=true

>>

>> So if you have to use ntbackup then dump your backup to a machine that is

>> running Windows 2000/2003 and have that machine run ntbackup.

>>

>> --

>> Paul Bergson

>> MVP - Directory Services

>> MCT, MCSE, MCSA, Security+, BS CSci

>> 2008, 2003, 2000 (Early Achiever), NT4

>>

>> http://www.pbbergs.com

>>

>> Please no e-mails, any questions should be posted in the NewsGroup

>> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no

>> rights.

>>

>> "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

>> news:5E68102D-EE3A-42B1-8E1A-E6E7F7241C4F@microsoft.com...

>> > Yes what a shock I sold a new Windpows Server 2008 with a tape unit in

>> > it.

>> > Only to find no NTBACKUP and the new Backup product just does not do

>> > Tape.

>> >

>> > I have not been seeing this huge change in any press releases

>> >

>> > I have hunted around and I cannot find an affordable or practical

>> > replacement for the LTO4 tape backup unit. What else streams at

>> > 120MB/s

>> > and

>> > stores 1.6TB of data? It needs to be at under $200 a unit and I need

>> > at

>> > least 30 backup devices to support the backup program policy in place.

>> >

>> > I am for the first time in 28 years in the computer industry having to

>> > source a third party backup tool to backup a server. This is wrong

>> > very

>> > wrong!

>> >

>> > I have looked at the advice of many and switched on Remote Storage and

>> > copied teh old NTBACKUP but still cannot backup to tape. Yes Microsoft

>> > have

>> > provided a cut down version of NTBACKUP to allow you to restor data

>> > from

>> > old

>> > 2000 and 2003 server backups but it is read only.

>> >

>> > Can any one resolve this issue for me - Either tell me how to get

>> > NYBACKUP

>> > working or provide another tool from microsoft that will backup these

>> > servers.

>> >

>> > I am not keen to use third party products and believe that all

>> > Operating

>> > systems should come with a basic and practical facility to backup. I

>> > do

>> > not

>> > consider the new backup practical as it is to costly and does not do

>> > Disaster

>> > recovery with of site backup well or affordably

>> >

>> > Who else is shocked and confused by the move by Microsoft.

>> >

>> > Microsoft could of atleast delivered the old and the new backups in the

>> > system and allowed users to decide what the wanted to use!!!

>>

>>

>>

[Guest Anteaus]

Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

 

Just to add my $0.1 here, I'd have to say that a a small-site admin I've been

there, seen it, done it.. and in my opinion while NAS boxes and USB dongles

are useful additional security, basically, TINSFOT.

 

The issue with disk-based backups is that they are just as vulnerable to a

faulty disk-controller or virus damaging their data as is the main copy. If

you have a disk with nine rotational backups on it, what happens if the tenth

time you use it, the disk-controller 'thrashes' and wipes the lot in one go?

 

I do use a disk backup as well as tape (basically just xcopy done nightly)

as it's easier to pull-back files that users have accidentally deleted from a

second disk than futtering-around with tape restores. But, that's a

convenience issue.

 

Where tape scores, though, is that in the event of server trouble, last

week's or last month's tape won't have been PUT IN the drive since the

trouble started, so you can be reasonably sure it's OK. Plus, you can flip

the write-protect while restoring, just in case.

 

On the balance I think I'd have to agree with the OP that a server OS with

no tape capability at all is not fit for the purpose it was sold for. IIRC

even the old Novell systems had a limited tape capability out of box. Linux

certainly does.

 

Plus, a product like Backup Exec costs nearly as much as the server OS

itself, and is mightily overcomplex for small sites, to the point where most

onsite staff are afraid to touch it.

 

"Kerry Brown" wrote:

> In a small single server shop several USB drives in a rotation is much less

> expensive option than a tape drive that could backup a terabyte. The cost of

> each drive is around the same as the cost of a couple of tapes.

[Guest Kerry Brown]

Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

 

I didn't say I prefer external drives over tape. I'm 50/50 on the issue. I

do agree the tape option should have been included. I was just pointing out

the cost justification of external drives vs. tapes. Given the cost of LTO4

tapes it's not that much more expensive to use USB drives even to keep some

as archives and take them out of rotation. This is just considering the cost

of the media. Once you factor in the cost of an LTO4 tape drive the external

hard drive solution is much cheaper.

 

--

Kerry Brown

MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration

http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/

 

 

 

"Anteaus" <Anteaus@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:AB8A43BA-3681-41E9-9DDB-3FF1D2AF4354@microsoft.com...

> Just to add my $0.1 here, I'd have to say that a a small-site admin I've

> been

> there, seen it, done it.. and in my opinion while NAS boxes and USB

> dongles

> are useful additional security, basically, TINSFOT.

>

> The issue with disk-based backups is that they are just as vulnerable to a

> faulty disk-controller or virus damaging their data as is the main copy.

> If

> you have a disk with nine rotational backups on it, what happens if the

> tenth

> time you use it, the disk-controller 'thrashes' and wipes the lot in one

> go?

>

> I do use a disk backup as well as tape (basically just xcopy done nightly)

> as it's easier to pull-back files that users have accidentally deleted

> from a

> second disk than futtering-around with tape restores. But, that's a

> convenience issue.

>

> Where tape scores, though, is that in the event of server trouble, last

> week's or last month's tape won't have been PUT IN the drive since the

> trouble started, so you can be reasonably sure it's OK. Plus, you can flip

> the write-protect while restoring, just in case.

>

> On the balance I think I'd have to agree with the OP that a server OS with

> no tape capability at all is not fit for the purpose it was sold for. IIRC

> even the old Novell systems had a limited tape capability out of box.

> Linux

> certainly does.

>

> Plus, a product like Backup Exec costs nearly as much as the server OS

> itself, and is mightily overcomplex for small sites, to the point where

> most

> onsite staff are afraid to touch it.

>

> "Kerry Brown" wrote:

>

>> In a small single server shop several USB drives in a rotation is much

>> less

>> expensive option than a tape drive that could backup a terabyte. The cost

>> of

>> each drive is around the same as the cost of a couple of tapes.

>

>

[Guest w-cubed]

Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

 

Kerry USB does not work with large data sets 1TB takes 3.5 days

 

a LTO4 can do the same backup or restore in 2.5 hours

 

Besides the tape is rugged light and transportable\

 

Disks are not

 

"Kerry Brown" wrote:

> In a small single server shop several USB drives in a rotation is much less

> expensive option than a tape drive that could backup a terabyte. The cost of

> each drive is around the same as the cost of a couple of tapes.

>

> --

> Kerry Brown

> MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration

> http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/

>

>

>

> "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> news:DB0145AD-AF5D-46F8-99A8-2B91ECD6AAA9@microsoft.com...

> > This is ability was a clear posability from the begining and as with you I

> > understood these options. However many of my customers are small sites

> > single server many are Windoes server 2003 SBS looking to migrate to 2008.

> > They just done have a huge server farm with huge disks to backup to. To

> > add

> > to this the process you suggest is actualy two steps and when you look at

> > it

> > the passing of 1TB of data across a network to an older 2003 machine then

> > conduct a tape backup on it its going to take 24 hours. I have worked

> > with

> > cross network backups in the past and when we start talking Terra bytes we

> > just lose the plot. To ad to this we are looking to replace the old

> > server

> > and the disk system in the old server would have to be upgraded to 1 TB.

> > To

> > get the disk speed to keep up with the 1 TB over night we need a

> > reasonably

> > fast RAID disk system. The backup system would also require a semilar

> > fast

> > disk system.

> >

> > These customers dont have SAN systems!!

> >

> > What we are loohing at is very simple -

> >

> > The customer places a type like device into a server and it backs up over

> > night .

> >

> > They dont wanted complicated double backups to non existing servers

> >

> > Micro soft may have high end users such as your self in mind with what

> > they

> > have provided but the smaller customers such as my customers the Microsoft

> > offering is just not practical at all

> >

> > I thank you for your input but it does not get the tape unit working with

> > a

> > microsoft backup utility. Infact the fact that you suggest that you

> > backup

> > to tape on a second server clearly indicates you would have the same issue

> > and still require Tape backup.

> >

> > This in its self tells you that micro soft have a duty of care to maintain

> > support for tape backup.

> >

> > I would pointn out that Microsoft are not in the RAD disk array market of

> > server hardware market or even removable hard drive market. Yet what they

> > deliver affects all of these markets and how we use them.

> >

> > So once again but Im throwing this one back in the pond and sit fishing

> > for

> > a fish that will do the job

> >

> > Tom

> >

> > "Paul Bergson [MVP-DS]" wrote:

> >

> >> This has been well advertised by Microsoft. You can backup to disk and

> >> then

> >> you run a third party app to copy the disk backup to tape. In our

> >> enterprise we do way more disk to disk backup and then dump to tape then

> >> straight to disk and we aren't running any production 2008 servers. Disk

> >> to

> >> tape under conventional means is to slow for us.

> >>

> >> Microsoft has said for many years, we are not in the tape backup business

> >> but they provide a very slimmed down product that I believe they licensed

> >> from Veritas (I am not 100% positive but pretty sure).

> >> http://technet2.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/en/library/00162c92-a834-43f9-9e8a-71aeb25fa4ad1033.mspx?mfr=true

> >>

> >> So if you have to use ntbackup then dump your backup to a machine that is

> >> running Windows 2000/2003 and have that machine run ntbackup.

> >>

> >> --

> >> Paul Bergson

> >> MVP - Directory Services

> >> MCT, MCSE, MCSA, Security+, BS CSci

> >> 2008, 2003, 2000 (Early Achiever), NT4

> >>

> >> http://www.pbbergs.com

> >>

> >> Please no e-mails, any questions should be posted in the NewsGroup

> >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no

> >> rights.

> >>

> >> "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> >> news:5E68102D-EE3A-42B1-8E1A-E6E7F7241C4F@microsoft.com...

> >> > Yes what a shock I sold a new Windpows Server 2008 with a tape unit in

> >> > it.

> >> > Only to find no NTBACKUP and the new Backup product just does not do

> >> > Tape.

> >> >

> >> > I have not been seeing this huge change in any press releases

> >> >

> >> > I have hunted around and I cannot find an affordable or practical

> >> > replacement for the LTO4 tape backup unit. What else streams at

> >> > 120MB/s

> >> > and

> >> > stores 1.6TB of data? It needs to be at under $200 a unit and I need

> >> > at

> >> > least 30 backup devices to support the backup program policy in place.

> >> >

> >> > I am for the first time in 28 years in the computer industry having to

> >> > source a third party backup tool to backup a server. This is wrong

> >> > very

> >> > wrong!

> >> >

> >> > I have looked at the advice of many and switched on Remote Storage and

> >> > copied teh old NTBACKUP but still cannot backup to tape. Yes Microsoft

> >> > have

> >> > provided a cut down version of NTBACKUP to allow you to restor data

> >> > from

> >> > old

> >> > 2000 and 2003 server backups but it is read only.

> >> >

> >> > Can any one resolve this issue for me - Either tell me how to get

> >> > NYBACKUP

> >> > working or provide another tool from microsoft that will backup these

> >> > servers.

> >> >

> >> > I am not keen to use third party products and believe that all

> >> > Operating

> >> > systems should come with a basic and practical facility to backup. I

> >> > do

> >> > not

> >> > consider the new backup practical as it is to costly and does not do

> >> > Disaster

> >> > recovery with of site backup well or affordably

> >> >

> >> > Who else is shocked and confused by the move by Microsoft.

> >> >

> >> > Microsoft could of atleast delivered the old and the new backups in the

> >> > system and allowed users to decide what the wanted to use!!!

> >>

> >>

> >>

>

[Guest Anteaus]

Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

 

This touches non a larger subject, namely that disk-storage technology is

always one step ahead of backup systems. These days, a terabye of disk

storage is easily achievable, yet tape devices are typically limted to a few

100GB or so, and even at that, are extremely costly and not all that

reliable. Not that anything has changed, in the days of 1GB disks typical

tapes took 100MB.

 

That, and we seem to be moving towards OS's that create bigger and bigger

headaches for the devices or software that back them up. With Win9x the

entire OS could be backed-up reliably with an XCOPY command. With succesive

NT-based versions the capability to backup the OS with confidence has

progressively diminished, owing to the introduction of features like NTFS,

filesystem permissions, hardlinks, EFS, you name it. With Vista this even

extends to modifying the disk's MBR region in a special way, so that EVEN if

you have an exact, byte-perfect copy of a partition, there is no guarantee

that this represents a full backup.

 

I have to ask, is this a forward step, or a retrograde one? For most people,

outright loss of their data is far more of a concern than are 'trick'

features, or cloak-and-dagger security.

 

 

"w-cubed" wrote:

> Paul why should we double handle the backup

>

> One server one backup

>

> Complicated backup systems mean complicated restorations

>

> I dont think people should try to justify dumping tape its still a good

> media abd still beats anything else on offer

>

[Guest Kerry Brown]

Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

 

Then use eSATA. I'm not against tape backups. I use tape at many sites I

support. In some cases it is the best option. It sounds like in your case it

is the best option. Backing up a terabyte every night in a single server

shop is a pretty unusual set up. I was just trying to point out there are

options.

 

--

Kerry Brown

MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration

http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/

 

 

 

"w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:2E601D5C-C56A-45F3-96C4-718D7A0752C0@microsoft.com...

> Kerry USB does not work with large data sets 1TB takes 3.5 days

>

> a LTO4 can do the same backup or restore in 2.5 hours

>

> Besides the tape is rugged light and transportable\

>

> Disks are not

>

> "Kerry Brown" wrote:

>

>> In a small single server shop several USB drives in a rotation is much

>> less

>> expensive option than a tape drive that could backup a terabyte. The cost

>> of

>> each drive is around the same as the cost of a couple of tapes.

>>

>> --

>> Kerry Brown

>> MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration

>> http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/

>>

>>

>>

>> "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

>> news:DB0145AD-AF5D-46F8-99A8-2B91ECD6AAA9@microsoft.com...

>> > This is ability was a clear posability from the begining and as with

>> > you I

>> > understood these options. However many of my customers are small sites

>> > single server many are Windoes server 2003 SBS looking to migrate to

>> > 2008.

>> > They just done have a huge server farm with huge disks to backup to.

>> > To

>> > add

>> > to this the process you suggest is actualy two steps and when you look

>> > at

>> > it

>> > the passing of 1TB of data across a network to an older 2003 machine

>> > then

>> > conduct a tape backup on it its going to take 24 hours. I have worked

>> > with

>> > cross network backups in the past and when we start talking Terra bytes

>> > we

>> > just lose the plot. To ad to this we are looking to replace the old

>> > server

>> > and the disk system in the old server would have to be upgraded to 1

>> > TB.

>> > To

>> > get the disk speed to keep up with the 1 TB over night we need a

>> > reasonably

>> > fast RAID disk system. The backup system would also require a semilar

>> > fast

>> > disk system.

>> >

>> > These customers dont have SAN systems!!

>> >

>> > What we are loohing at is very simple -

>> >

>> > The customer places a type like device into a server and it backs up

>> > over

>> > night .

>> >

>> > They dont wanted complicated double backups to non existing servers

>> >

>> > Micro soft may have high end users such as your self in mind with what

>> > they

>> > have provided but the smaller customers such as my customers the

>> > Microsoft

>> > offering is just not practical at all

>> >

>> > I thank you for your input but it does not get the tape unit working

>> > with

>> > a

>> > microsoft backup utility. Infact the fact that you suggest that you

>> > backup

>> > to tape on a second server clearly indicates you would have the same

>> > issue

>> > and still require Tape backup.

>> >

>> > This in its self tells you that micro soft have a duty of care to

>> > maintain

>> > support for tape backup.

>> >

>> > I would pointn out that Microsoft are not in the RAD disk array market

>> > of

>> > server hardware market or even removable hard drive market. Yet what

>> > they

>> > deliver affects all of these markets and how we use them.

>> >

>> > So once again but Im throwing this one back in the pond and sit fishing

>> > for

>> > a fish that will do the job

>> >

>> > Tom

>> >

>> > "Paul Bergson [MVP-DS]" wrote:

>> >

>> >> This has been well advertised by Microsoft. You can backup to disk

>> >> and

>> >> then

>> >> you run a third party app to copy the disk backup to tape. In our

>> >> enterprise we do way more disk to disk backup and then dump to tape

>> >> then

>> >> straight to disk and we aren't running any production 2008 servers.

>> >> Disk

>> >> to

>> >> tape under conventional means is to slow for us.

>> >>

>> >> Microsoft has said for many years, we are not in the tape backup

>> >> business

>> >> but they provide a very slimmed down product that I believe they

>> >> licensed

>> >> from Veritas (I am not 100% positive but pretty sure).

>> >> http://technet2.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/en/library/00162c92-a834-43f9-9e8a-71aeb25fa4ad1033.mspx?mfr=true

>> >>

>> >> So if you have to use ntbackup then dump your backup to a machine that

>> >> is

>> >> running Windows 2000/2003 and have that machine run ntbackup.

>> >>

>> >> --

>> >> Paul Bergson

>> >> MVP - Directory Services

>> >> MCT, MCSE, MCSA, Security+, BS CSci

>> >> 2008, 2003, 2000 (Early Achiever), NT4

>> >>

>> >> http://www.pbbergs.com

>> >>

>> >> Please no e-mails, any questions should be posted in the NewsGroup

>> >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no

>> >> rights.

>> >>

>> >> "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

>> >> news:5E68102D-EE3A-42B1-8E1A-E6E7F7241C4F@microsoft.com...

>> >> > Yes what a shock I sold a new Windpows Server 2008 with a tape unit

>> >> > in

>> >> > it.

>> >> > Only to find no NTBACKUP and the new Backup product just does not do

>> >> > Tape.

>> >> >

>> >> > I have not been seeing this huge change in any press releases

>> >> >

>> >> > I have hunted around and I cannot find an affordable or practical

>> >> > replacement for the LTO4 tape backup unit. What else streams at

>> >> > 120MB/s

>> >> > and

>> >> > stores 1.6TB of data? It needs to be at under $200 a unit and I

>> >> > need

>> >> > at

>> >> > least 30 backup devices to support the backup program policy in

>> >> > place.

>> >> >

>> >> > I am for the first time in 28 years in the computer industry having

>> >> > to

>> >> > source a third party backup tool to backup a server. This is wrong

>> >> > very

>> >> > wrong!

>> >> >

>> >> > I have looked at the advice of many and switched on Remote Storage

>> >> > and

>> >> > copied teh old NTBACKUP but still cannot backup to tape. Yes

>> >> > Microsoft

>> >> > have

>> >> > provided a cut down version of NTBACKUP to allow you to restor data

>> >> > from

>> >> > old

>> >> > 2000 and 2003 server backups but it is read only.

>> >> >

>> >> > Can any one resolve this issue for me - Either tell me how to get

>> >> > NYBACKUP

>> >> > working or provide another tool from microsoft that will backup

>> >> > these

>> >> > servers.

>> >> >

>> >> > I am not keen to use third party products and believe that all

>> >> > Operating

>> >> > systems should come with a basic and practical facility to backup.

>> >> > I

>> >> > do

>> >> > not

>> >> > consider the new backup practical as it is to costly and does not do

>> >> > Disaster

>> >> > recovery with of site backup well or affordably

>> >> >

>> >> > Who else is shocked and confused by the move by Microsoft.

>> >> >

>> >> > Microsoft could of atleast delivered the old and the new backups in

>> >> > the

>> >> > system and allowed users to decide what the wanted to use!!!

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>>