Follow-up

April 1, 2008

Here's prior post:

Background:

Promise 133 controller card, 2 WDC 80GB hard drives on removable trays.

Promise bios shows identical drives. First master (alone), second master

w/slave (DVD burner).

Unable to access 2nd hard drive.

Have tried:

Simple boot floppy with ME dos on it, and same with 98SE dos on it at boot

time.

DriveImage 2002 with 98SE dos on it.

XP w/SP2.

WinME window environment.

98SE environment.

Swapping drives in trays and using the unaccessible drive by itself.

Swapping tray insertable locations. Jumpers adjusted accordingly.

During floppy boot (both 98SE and ME), have observed the access LED on the

tray indicating access to that hard drive. PC locks up everytime. Similar

in XP boot, ME and 98SE when I open windows explorer to investigate My

Computer. WDC diagnostic tool on bootable floppy similar results.

------------------------------------------------------

For those who want more precise info the one I'm having trouble with is IDE2

drive.

I tried onboard ide with same result both attempting to boot with it, and

booting from floppy and CD with WD diagnostics on it.

Using a firewire enclosure with the problem drive, XP SP2 disk manager

remains attempting to make contact with logical disk manager for 10 minutes.

I stopped it at that point. Attempting to populate, error message said that

the partition(s) may be of Windows 2000 nature. I don't own Windows 2000

and the drive has never seen such.

--

Dave

How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3 months

old?

An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

April 1, 2008

Re: Follow-up

Lil' Dave wrote:

| Here's prior post:

I've answered in the original thread, where you included even more

information in a second post.

| Background:

| Promise 133 controller card, 2 WDC 80GB hard drives on removable

| trays. Promise bios shows identical drives. First master (alone),

| second master w/slave (DVD burner).

|

| Unable to access 2nd hard drive.

| Have tried:

| Simple boot floppy with ME dos on it, and same with 98SE dos on it at

| boot time.

| DriveImage 2002 with 98SE dos on it.

| XP w/SP2.

| WinME window environment.

| 98SE environment.

| Swapping drives in trays and using the unaccessible drive by itself.

| Swapping tray insertable locations. Jumpers adjusted accordingly.

|

| During floppy boot (both 98SE and ME), have observed the access LED

| on the tray indicating access to that hard drive. PC locks up

| everytime. Similar in XP boot, ME and 98SE when I open windows

| explorer to investigate My Computer. WDC diagnostic tool on bootable

| floppy similar results.

| ------------------------------------------------------

|

| For those who want more precise info the one I'm having trouble with

| is IDE2 drive.

|

| I tried onboard ide with same result both attempting to boot with it,

| and booting from floppy and CD with WD diagnostics on it.

|

| Using a firewire enclosure with the problem drive, XP SP2 disk manager

| remains attempting to make contact with logical disk manager for 10

| minutes. I stopped it at that point. Attempting to populate, error

| message said that the partition(s) may be of Windows 2000 nature. I

| don't own Windows 2000 and the drive has never seen such.

|

| --

| Dave

|

| How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3

| months old?

|

| An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

--

Thanks or Good Luck,

There may be humor in this post, and,

Naturally, you will not sue,

Should things get worse after this,

PCR

pcrrcp@netzero.net

April 1, 2008

Re: Follow-up

It sounds like a partition table problem making the drive unusable. If

you have no unique data on this drive, reformat it, and copy the other

drive.

I had a few drives crash a few months ago with partition table

problems. Same symptoms as yours. They became useless paperweights. I

had nothing to fix or diagnose them. I bought Partition Table Doctor

and it fixed all my problems immediately.

http://www.ptdd.com/

Download $50. For me, it was well worth the money.

April 1, 2008

Re: Follow-up

Okay, have looked through both discussions. Seems you may have a problem

with the on disk controller chip, indicated by the inability to boot with

the drive in the system.

Can you actually hear the hard drive spinning?

Not saying these will work but as it is just a piece of junk right now:

Download HDAT2 and MHDD [both free/donationware], attempt to get either of

these to work with the drive. These use direct controller/BIOS access.

If unable to get either of these to work, try placing into a Linux box.

Note: Likely none of this will work.

Sooooo, if no luck, and its still junk: turn the disk on edge and slap

against your hand [or really lightly on the desk top]. once or twice, both

sides. Retry with the two tools.

And finally, using an old test computer [one that IS NOT going to be used

for much]:

Hook up the hard drive cable but DO NOT connect the power cable to the hard

drive. Hard set the BIOS to the recommended settings for the drive [can NOT

be AUTO as the BIOS will not be finding the drive so translation MUST be

set]. Start the computer with one of the free tools or a boot floppy. After

computer boot, connect the power cable to the drive. See if you can access

the disk

--

MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

"Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

news:uGxTXf5kIHA.5396@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

| Here's prior post:

| Background:

| Promise 133 controller card, 2 WDC 80GB hard drives on removable trays.

| Promise bios shows identical drives. First master (alone), second master

| w/slave (DVD burner).

|

| Unable to access 2nd hard drive.

| Have tried:

| Simple boot floppy with ME dos on it, and same with 98SE dos on it at boot

| time.

| DriveImage 2002 with 98SE dos on it.

| XP w/SP2.

| WinME window environment.

| 98SE environment.

| Swapping drives in trays and using the unaccessible drive by itself.

| Swapping tray insertable locations. Jumpers adjusted accordingly.

|

| During floppy boot (both 98SE and ME), have observed the access LED on the

| tray indicating access to that hard drive. PC locks up everytime.

Similar

| in XP boot, ME and 98SE when I open windows explorer to investigate My

| Computer. WDC diagnostic tool on bootable floppy similar results.

| ------------------------------------------------------

|

| For those who want more precise info the one I'm having trouble with is

IDE2

| drive.

|

| I tried onboard ide with same result both attempting to boot with it, and

| booting from floppy and CD with WD diagnostics on it.

|

| Using a firewire enclosure with the problem drive, XP SP2 disk manager

| remains attempting to make contact with logical disk manager for 10

minutes.

| I stopped it at that point. Attempting to populate, error message said

that

| the partition(s) may be of Windows 2000 nature. I don't own Windows 2000

| and the drive has never seen such.

|

| --

| Dave

|

| How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3

months

| old?

|

| An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

|

April 2, 2008

Re: Follow-up

Just a small clarification. Both identical hard drives have system

commander (circa 2002) on them. I normally use the Ultra133 TX2 card to

boot from either of them. With the good one (IDE1) out of the PC, I can

boot to the system commander menu normal icons on the IDE2 drive. What that

means is the mbr area is normal for the drive, and, the Windows ME partition

where system commander is installed is accessible to some extent.

The only alternative PC available to me is a P166 circa 1998. The bios

can't ID the drive. The PC I'm using now can connected to its onboard ide.

The only thing I've not tried is the system commander boot diskettes. I'll

give it whirl.

--

Dave

How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3 months

old?

An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

"MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:%23Snb8XClIHA.4480@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> Okay, have looked through both discussions. Seems you may have a problem

> with the on disk controller chip, indicated by the inability to boot with

> the drive in the system.

> Can you actually hear the hard drive spinning?

>

> Not saying these will work but as it is just a piece of junk right now:

>

> Download HDAT2 and MHDD [both free/donationware], attempt to get either of

> these to work with the drive. These use direct controller/BIOS access.

>

> If unable to get either of these to work, try placing into a Linux box.

>

> Note: Likely none of this will work.

>

> Sooooo, if no luck, and its still junk: turn the disk on edge and slap

> against your hand [or really lightly on the desk top]. once or twice, both

> sides. Retry with the two tools.

>

> And finally, using an old test computer [one that IS NOT going to be used

> for much]:

>

> Hook up the hard drive cable but DO NOT connect the power cable to the

> hard

> drive. Hard set the BIOS to the recommended settings for the drive [can

> NOT

> be AUTO as the BIOS will not be finding the drive so translation MUST be

> set]. Start the computer with one of the free tools or a boot floppy.

> After

> computer boot, connect the power cable to the drive. See if you can access

> the disk

>

> --

> MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

> --

> _________

>

> "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

> news:uGxTXf5kIHA.5396@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> | Here's prior post:

> | Background:

> | Promise 133 controller card, 2 WDC 80GB hard drives on removable trays.

> | Promise bios shows identical drives. First master (alone), second

> master

> | w/slave (DVD burner).

> |

> | Unable to access 2nd hard drive.

> | Have tried:

> | Simple boot floppy with ME dos on it, and same with 98SE dos on it at

> boot

> | time.

> | DriveImage 2002 with 98SE dos on it.

> | XP w/SP2.

> | WinME window environment.

> | 98SE environment.

> | Swapping drives in trays and using the unaccessible drive by itself.

> | Swapping tray insertable locations. Jumpers adjusted accordingly.

> |

> | During floppy boot (both 98SE and ME), have observed the access LED on

> the

> | tray indicating access to that hard drive. PC locks up everytime.

> Similar

> | in XP boot, ME and 98SE when I open windows explorer to investigate My

> | Computer. WDC diagnostic tool on bootable floppy similar results.

> | ------------------------------------------------------

> |

> | For those who want more precise info the one I'm having trouble with is

> IDE2

> | drive.

> |

> | I tried onboard ide with same result both attempting to boot with it,

> and

> | booting from floppy and CD with WD diagnostics on it.

> |

> | Using a firewire enclosure with the problem drive, XP SP2 disk manager

> | remains attempting to make contact with logical disk manager for 10

> minutes.

> | I stopped it at that point. Attempting to populate, error message said

> that

> | the partition(s) may be of Windows 2000 nature. I don't own Windows

> 2000

> | and the drive has never seen such.

> |

> | --

> | Dave

> |

> | How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3

> months

> | old?

> |

> | An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

> |

>

April 2, 2008

Re: Follow-up

Wow, okay, must have missed the System Commander AND ME statement

somewhere...

From what I thought I saw, it appeared that nothing booted with the drive

in... my mistake

--

MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

"Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

news:uvmcZGHlIHA.4536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

| Just a small clarification. Both identical hard drives have system

| commander (circa 2002) on them. I normally use the Ultra133 TX2 card to

| boot from either of them. With the good one (IDE1) out of the PC, I can

| boot to the system commander menu normal icons on the IDE2 drive. What

that

| means is the mbr area is normal for the drive, and, the Windows ME

partition

| where system commander is installed is accessible to some extent.

|

| The only alternative PC available to me is a P166 circa 1998. The bios

| can't ID the drive. The PC I'm using now can connected to its onboard

ide.

|

| The only thing I've not tried is the system commander boot diskettes.

I'll

| give it whirl.

|

| --

| Dave

|

| How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3

months

| old?

|

| An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

| "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

| news:%23Snb8XClIHA.4480@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

| > Okay, have looked through both discussions. Seems you may have a problem

| > with the on disk controller chip, indicated by the inability to boot

with

| > the drive in the system.

| > Can you actually hear the hard drive spinning?

| >

| > Not saying these will work but as it is just a piece of junk right now:

| >

| > Download HDAT2 and MHDD [both free/donationware], attempt to get either

of

| > these to work with the drive. These use direct controller/BIOS access.

| >

| > If unable to get either of these to work, try placing into a Linux box.

| >

| > Note: Likely none of this will work.

| >

| > Sooooo, if no luck, and its still junk: turn the disk on edge and slap

| > against your hand [or really lightly on the desk top]. once or twice,

both

| > sides. Retry with the two tools.

| >

| > And finally, using an old test computer [one that IS NOT going to be

used

| > for much]:

| >

| > Hook up the hard drive cable but DO NOT connect the power cable to the

| > hard

| > drive. Hard set the BIOS to the recommended settings for the drive [can

| > NOT

| > be AUTO as the BIOS will not be finding the drive so translation MUST be

| > set]. Start the computer with one of the free tools or a boot floppy.

| > After

| > computer boot, connect the power cable to the drive. See if you can

access

| > the disk

| >

| > --

| > MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

| > --

| > _________

| >

| > "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

| > news:uGxTXf5kIHA.5396@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

| > | Here's prior post:

| > | Background:

| > | Promise 133 controller card, 2 WDC 80GB hard drives on removable

trays.

| > | Promise bios shows identical drives. First master (alone), second

| > master

| > | w/slave (DVD burner).

| > |

| > | Unable to access 2nd hard drive.

| > | Have tried:

| > | Simple boot floppy with ME dos on it, and same with 98SE dos on it at

| > boot

| > | time.

| > | DriveImage 2002 with 98SE dos on it.

| > | XP w/SP2.

| > | WinME window environment.

| > | 98SE environment.

| > | Swapping drives in trays and using the unaccessible drive by itself.

| > | Swapping tray insertable locations. Jumpers adjusted accordingly.

| > |

| > | During floppy boot (both 98SE and ME), have observed the access LED on

| > the

| > | tray indicating access to that hard drive. PC locks up everytime.

| > Similar

| > | in XP boot, ME and 98SE when I open windows explorer to investigate My

| > | Computer. WDC diagnostic tool on bootable floppy similar results.

| > | ------------------------------------------------------

| > |

| > | For those who want more precise info the one I'm having trouble with

is

| > IDE2

| > | drive.

| > |

| > | I tried onboard ide with same result both attempting to boot with it,

| > and

| > | booting from floppy and CD with WD diagnostics on it.

| > |

| > | Using a firewire enclosure with the problem drive, XP SP2 disk manager

| > | remains attempting to make contact with logical disk manager for 10

| > minutes.

| > | I stopped it at that point. Attempting to populate, error message

said

| > that

| > | the partition(s) may be of Windows 2000 nature. I don't own Windows

| > 2000

| > | and the drive has never seen such.

| > |

| > | --

| > | Dave

| > |

| > | How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3

| > months

| > | old?

| > |

| > | An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

| > |

| >

|

April 2, 2008

Re: Follow-up

No luck with either one of bootable system commander diskettes pair (both

bootable). Same symptoms, floppy accessed at boot time for a moment.

Floppy activity light goes out, and immediately the led indicator where the

IDE2 problem drive lights up. Stays lit forever.

Also tried a Suse 8.xxx version of linux boot diskette, getting a kernel

panic indication.

Will investigate the windows 2000 partition possibility in an XP newsgroup.

Thanks for trying.

--

Dave

How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3 months

old?

An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

"MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:OHdnk5JlIHA.748@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> Wow, okay, must have missed the System Commander AND ME statement

> somewhere...

>

> From what I thought I saw, it appeared that nothing booted with the drive

> in... my mistake

>

> --

> MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

> --

> _________

>

> "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

> news:uvmcZGHlIHA.4536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

> | Just a small clarification. Both identical hard drives have system

> | commander (circa 2002) on them. I normally use the Ultra133 TX2 card to

> | boot from either of them. With the good one (IDE1) out of the PC, I can

> | boot to the system commander menu normal icons on the IDE2 drive. What

> that

> | means is the mbr area is normal for the drive, and, the Windows ME

> partition

> | where system commander is installed is accessible to some extent.

> |

> | The only alternative PC available to me is a P166 circa 1998. The bios

> | can't ID the drive. The PC I'm using now can connected to its onboard

> ide.

> |

> | The only thing I've not tried is the system commander boot diskettes.

> I'll

> | give it whirl.

> |

> | --

> | Dave

> |

> | How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3

> months

> | old?

> |

> | An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

> | "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> | news:%23Snb8XClIHA.4480@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> | > Okay, have looked through both discussions. Seems you may have a

> problem

> | > with the on disk controller chip, indicated by the inability to boot

> with

> | > the drive in the system.

> | > Can you actually hear the hard drive spinning?

> | >

> | > Not saying these will work but as it is just a piece of junk right

> now:

> | >

> | > Download HDAT2 and MHDD [both free/donationware], attempt to get

> either

> of

> | > these to work with the drive. These use direct controller/BIOS access.

> | >

> | > If unable to get either of these to work, try placing into a Linux

> box.

> | >

> | > Note: Likely none of this will work.

> | >

> | > Sooooo, if no luck, and its still junk: turn the disk on edge and slap

> | > against your hand [or really lightly on the desk top]. once or twice,

> both

> | > sides. Retry with the two tools.

> | >

> | > And finally, using an old test computer [one that IS NOT going to be

> used

> | > for much]:

> | >

> | > Hook up the hard drive cable but DO NOT connect the power cable to the

> | > hard

> | > drive. Hard set the BIOS to the recommended settings for the drive

> [can

> | > NOT

> | > be AUTO as the BIOS will not be finding the drive so translation MUST

> be

> | > set]. Start the computer with one of the free tools or a boot floppy.

> | > After

> | > computer boot, connect the power cable to the drive. See if you can

> access

> | > the disk

> | >

> | > --

> | > MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

> | > --

> | > _________

> | >

> | > "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

> | > news:uGxTXf5kIHA.5396@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> | > | Here's prior post:

> | > | Background:

> | > | Promise 133 controller card, 2 WDC 80GB hard drives on removable

> trays.

> | > | Promise bios shows identical drives. First master (alone), second

> | > master

> | > | w/slave (DVD burner).

> | > |

> | > | Unable to access 2nd hard drive.

> | > | Have tried:

> | > | Simple boot floppy with ME dos on it, and same with 98SE dos on it

> at

> | > boot

> | > | time.

> | > | DriveImage 2002 with 98SE dos on it.

> | > | XP w/SP2.

> | > | WinME window environment.

> | > | 98SE environment.

> | > | Swapping drives in trays and using the unaccessible drive by itself.

> | > | Swapping tray insertable locations. Jumpers adjusted accordingly.

> | > |

> | > | During floppy boot (both 98SE and ME), have observed the access LED

> on

> | > the

> | > | tray indicating access to that hard drive. PC locks up everytime.

> | > Similar

> | > | in XP boot, ME and 98SE when I open windows explorer to investigate

> My

> | > | Computer. WDC diagnostic tool on bootable floppy similar results.

> | > | ------------------------------------------------------

> | > |

> | > | For those who want more precise info the one I'm having trouble with

> is

> | > IDE2

> | > | drive.

> | > |

> | > | I tried onboard ide with same result both attempting to boot with

> it,

> | > and

> | > | booting from floppy and CD with WD diagnostics on it.

> | > |

> | > | Using a firewire enclosure with the problem drive, XP SP2 disk

> manager

> | > | remains attempting to make contact with logical disk manager for 10

> | > minutes.

> | > | I stopped it at that point. Attempting to populate, error message

> said

> | > that

> | > | the partition(s) may be of Windows 2000 nature. I don't own Windows

> | > 2000

> | > | and the drive has never seen such.

> | > |

> | > | --

> | > | Dave

> | > |

> | > | How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over

> 3

> | > months

> | > | old?

> | > |

> | > | An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

> | > |

> | >

> |

>

April 2, 2008

Re: Follow-up

"Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

news:eyxSgoMlIHA.464@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

| No luck with either one of bootable system commander diskettes pair (both

| bootable). Same symptoms, floppy accessed at boot time for a moment.

| Floppy activity light goes out, and immediately the led indicator where

the

| IDE2 problem drive lights up. Stays lit forever.

|

| Also tried a Suse 8.xxx version of linux boot diskette, getting a kernel

| panic indication.

|

| Will investigate the windows 2000 partition possibility in an XP

newsgroup.

| Thanks for trying.

| --

| Dave

Okay. If no luck, try the last suggestion [the no HD power at boot, then

connect - NOT using the main computer] to see if you can access the disk.

The boot manager issue [system Commander} brought a bit to the disco that

was missed, though you have already tested that now.

More questions or points to ponder.

Was this disk set to autobackup the first disk, and was there a

brownout/loss of power perhaps?

OR, as the disk is apparently in hot-swap trays, did you ensure the disk

was not removed during a write process?

OR, that it may have been accessed while NOT fully seated in the connector?

Did you attempt to determine IF the drive is actually spinning? [Drive

light does NOT mean the drive is actually spinning, just means it was

attempted at access.]

Is the data on this disk irreplacable?

Have you ever diagnosed resistor issues on hard drives, and do you have the

equipment to do so?

ANYWAY, let us know what the results are.

|

| How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3

months

| old?

|

| An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

| "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

| news:OHdnk5JlIHA.748@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

| > Wow, okay, must have missed the System Commander AND ME statement

| > somewhere...

| >

| > From what I thought I saw, it appeared that nothing booted with the

drive

| > in... my mistake

| >

| > --

| > MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

| > --

| > _________

| >

| > "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

| > news:uvmcZGHlIHA.4536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

| > | Just a small clarification. Both identical hard drives have system

| > | commander (circa 2002) on them. I normally use the Ultra133 TX2 card

to

| > | boot from either of them. With the good one (IDE1) out of the PC, I

can

| > | boot to the system commander menu normal icons on the IDE2 drive.

What

| > that

| > | means is the mbr area is normal for the drive, and, the Windows ME

| > partition

| > | where system commander is installed is accessible to some extent.

| > |

| > | The only alternative PC available to me is a P166 circa 1998. The

bios

| > | can't ID the drive. The PC I'm using now can connected to its onboard

| > ide.

| > |

| > | The only thing I've not tried is the system commander boot diskettes.

| > I'll

| > | give it whirl.

| > |

| > | --

| > | Dave

| > |

| > | How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3

| > months

| > | old?

| > |

| > | An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

| > | "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

| > | news:%23Snb8XClIHA.4480@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

| > | > Okay, have looked through both discussions. Seems you may have a

| > problem

| > | > with the on disk controller chip, indicated by the inability to boot

| > with

| > | > the drive in the system.

| > | > Can you actually hear the hard drive spinning?

| > | >

| > | > Not saying these will work but as it is just a piece of junk right

| > now:

| > | >

| > | > Download HDAT2 and MHDD [both free/donationware], attempt to get

| > either

| > of

| > | > these to work with the drive. These use direct controller/BIOS

access.

| > | >

| > | > If unable to get either of these to work, try placing into a Linux

| > box.

| > | >

| > | > Note: Likely none of this will work.

| > | >

| > | > Sooooo, if no luck, and its still junk: turn the disk on edge and

slap

| > | > against your hand [or really lightly on the desk top]. once or

twice,

| > both

| > | > sides. Retry with the two tools.

| > | >

| > | > And finally, using an old test computer [one that IS NOT going to be

| > used

| > | > for much]:

| > | >

| > | > Hook up the hard drive cable but DO NOT connect the power cable to

the

| > | > hard

| > | > drive. Hard set the BIOS to the recommended settings for the drive

| > [can

| > | > NOT

| > | > be AUTO as the BIOS will not be finding the drive so translation

MUST

| > be

| > | > set]. Start the computer with one of the free tools or a boot

floppy.

| > | > After

| > | > computer boot, connect the power cable to the drive. See if you can

| > access

| > | > the disk

| > | >

| > | > --

| > | > MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

| > | > --

| > | > _________

| > | >

| > | > "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

| > | > news:uGxTXf5kIHA.5396@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

| > | > | Here's prior post:

| > | > | Background:

| > | > | Promise 133 controller card, 2 WDC 80GB hard drives on removable

| > trays.

| > | > | Promise bios shows identical drives. First master (alone), second

| > | > master

| > | > | w/slave (DVD burner).

| > | > |

| > | > | Unable to access 2nd hard drive.

| > | > | Have tried:

| > | > | Simple boot floppy with ME dos on it, and same with 98SE dos on it

| > at

| > | > boot

| > | > | time.

| > | > | DriveImage 2002 with 98SE dos on it.

| > | > | XP w/SP2.

| > | > | WinME window environment.

| > | > | 98SE environment.

| > | > | Swapping drives in trays and using the unaccessible drive by

itself.

| > | > | Swapping tray insertable locations. Jumpers adjusted accordingly.

| > | > |

| > | > | During floppy boot (both 98SE and ME), have observed the access

LED

| > on

| > | > the

| > | > | tray indicating access to that hard drive. PC locks up everytime.

| > | > Similar

| > | > | in XP boot, ME and 98SE when I open windows explorer to

investigate

| > My

| > | > | Computer. WDC diagnostic tool on bootable floppy similar results.

| > | > | ------------------------------------------------------

| > | > |

| > | > | For those who want more precise info the one I'm having trouble

with

| > is

| > | > IDE2

| > | > | drive.

| > | > |

| > | > | I tried onboard ide with same result both attempting to boot with

| > it,

| > | > and

| > | > | booting from floppy and CD with WD diagnostics on it.

| > | > |

| > | > | Using a firewire enclosure with the problem drive, XP SP2 disk

| > manager

| > | > | remains attempting to make contact with logical disk manager for

10

| > | > minutes.

| > | > | I stopped it at that point. Attempting to populate, error message

| > said

| > | > that

| > | > | the partition(s) may be of Windows 2000 nature. I don't own

Windows

| > | > 2000

| > | > | and the drive has never seen such.

| > | > |

| > | > | --

| > | > | Dave

--

MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

April 3, 2008

Re: Follow-up

BTW: In an *actual War*, we {America} do NOT fight for control of resources.

We supposedly fight for freedom from oppression.

IN the present {corporate} Wars, U.S. {not America - U.S. {or US} is a

separate corporate entity by LAW}] fights for resources AND for finical

enrichment [private enterprise] through economic stimulus, and direct

financial gain; such as: from PRIVATE security forces [such as what were

formerly considered as para-military or mercenary forces {think BlackWater

and others}] and re-construction enterprises {like Enron, Haliburton, etc.}

--

MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

April 5, 2008

Re: Follow-up

Basically, when both WD 80GB drives were working correctly, I booted from

the IDE0 (first 80GB) into the system commander menu. In that menu, there

is a facility for partitioning (partition commander). I simply deleted

partitions on the IDE1 drive and copy each changed data partition from IDE0

to IDE1. This is the only time that the IDE1 drive was inserted. All

worked fine using this method for well over 2 years. I bought a replacement

WD 80GB a couple of days ago online at mwave.com, its on its way via UPS

snail delivery.

The IDE0/1 drives contain ME with Quicken where I do all my financials

locally (no internet) and still do so, 98SE with NERO 5.5 that copies

commercial DVDs (no internet), and older installation of XP w/Office 2K.

IDE0 drive is still intact and completely functional. My onboard SATA

drives have ME only for system commander functionality, 2 installs of XP.

One with Office 2003 that I currently use. The second SATA is a copy of the

first. I keep images of all those partitions on 2 firewire drives, and

locally on the SATA logical partitions.

--

Dave

How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3 months

old?

An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

"MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:%23tlbFyNlIHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

>

> "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

> news:eyxSgoMlIHA.464@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

> | No luck with either one of bootable system commander diskettes pair

> (both

> | bootable). Same symptoms, floppy accessed at boot time for a moment.

> | Floppy activity light goes out, and immediately the led indicator where

> the

> | IDE2 problem drive lights up. Stays lit forever.

> |

> | Also tried a Suse 8.xxx version of linux boot diskette, getting a kernel

> | panic indication.

> |

> | Will investigate the windows 2000 partition possibility in an XP

> newsgroup.

> | Thanks for trying.

> | --

> | Dave

>

> Okay. If no luck, try the last suggestion [the no HD power at boot, then

> connect - NOT using the main computer] to see if you can access the disk.

> The boot manager issue [system Commander} brought a bit to the disco that

> was missed, though you have already tested that now.

>

> More questions or points to ponder.

>

> Was this disk set to autobackup the first disk, and was there a

> brownout/loss of power perhaps?

> OR, as the disk is apparently in hot-swap trays, did you ensure the disk

> was not removed during a write process?

> OR, that it may have been accessed while NOT fully seated in the

> connector?

>

> Did you attempt to determine IF the drive is actually spinning? [Drive

> light does NOT mean the drive is actually spinning, just means it was

> attempted at access.]

>

> Is the data on this disk irreplacable?

>

> Have you ever diagnosed resistor issues on hard drives, and do you have

> the

> equipment to do so?

>

> ANYWAY, let us know what the results are.

>

> |

> | How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3

> months

> | old?

> |

> | An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

> | "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> | news:OHdnk5JlIHA.748@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> | > Wow, okay, must have missed the System Commander AND ME statement

> | > somewhere...

> | >

> | > From what I thought I saw, it appeared that nothing booted with the

> drive

> | > in... my mistake

> | >

> | > --

> | > MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

> | > --

> | > _________

> | >

> | > "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

> | > news:uvmcZGHlIHA.4536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

> | > | Just a small clarification. Both identical hard drives have system

> | > | commander (circa 2002) on them. I normally use the Ultra133 TX2

> card

> to

> | > | boot from either of them. With the good one (IDE1) out of the PC, I

> can

> | > | boot to the system commander menu normal icons on the IDE2 drive.

> What

> | > that

> | > | means is the mbr area is normal for the drive, and, the Windows ME

> | > partition

> | > | where system commander is installed is accessible to some extent.

> | > |

> | > | The only alternative PC available to me is a P166 circa 1998. The

> bios

> | > | can't ID the drive. The PC I'm using now can connected to its

> onboard

> | > ide.

> | > |

> | > | The only thing I've not tried is the system commander boot

> diskettes.

> | > I'll

> | > | give it whirl.

> | > |

> | > | --

> | > | Dave

> | > |

> | > | How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over

> 3

> | > months

> | > | old?

> | > |

> | > | An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

> | > | "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> | > | news:%23Snb8XClIHA.4480@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> | > | > Okay, have looked through both discussions. Seems you may have a

> | > problem

> | > | > with the on disk controller chip, indicated by the inability to

> boot

> | > with

> | > | > the drive in the system.

> | > | > Can you actually hear the hard drive spinning?

> | > | >

> | > | > Not saying these will work but as it is just a piece of junk right

> | > now:

> | > | >

> | > | > Download HDAT2 and MHDD [both free/donationware], attempt to get

> | > either

> | > of

> | > | > these to work with the drive. These use direct controller/BIOS

> access.

> | > | >

> | > | > If unable to get either of these to work, try placing into a Linux

> | > box.

> | > | >

> | > | > Note: Likely none of this will work.

> | > | >

> | > | > Sooooo, if no luck, and its still junk: turn the disk on edge and

> slap

> | > | > against your hand [or really lightly on the desk top]. once or

> twice,

> | > both

> | > | > sides. Retry with the two tools.

> | > | >

> | > | > And finally, using an old test computer [one that IS NOT going to

> be

> | > used

> | > | > for much]:

> | > | >

> | > | > Hook up the hard drive cable but DO NOT connect the power cable to

> the

> | > | > hard

> | > | > drive. Hard set the BIOS to the recommended settings for the drive

> | > [can

> | > | > NOT

> | > | > be AUTO as the BIOS will not be finding the drive so translation

> MUST

> | > be

> | > | > set]. Start the computer with one of the free tools or a boot

> floppy.

> | > | > After

> | > | > computer boot, connect the power cable to the drive. See if you

> can

> | > access

> | > | > the disk

> | > | >

> | > | > --

> | > | > MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

> | > | > --

> | > | > _________

> | > | >

> | > | > "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

> | > | > news:uGxTXf5kIHA.5396@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> | > | > | Here's prior post:

> | > | > | Background:

> | > | > | Promise 133 controller card, 2 WDC 80GB hard drives on removable

> | > trays.

> | > | > | Promise bios shows identical drives. First master (alone),

> second

> | > | > master

> | > | > | w/slave (DVD burner).

> | > | > |

> | > | > | Unable to access 2nd hard drive.

> | > | > | Have tried:

> | > | > | Simple boot floppy with ME dos on it, and same with 98SE dos on

> it

> | > at

> | > | > boot

> | > | > | time.

> | > | > | DriveImage 2002 with 98SE dos on it.

> | > | > | XP w/SP2.

> | > | > | WinME window environment.

> | > | > | 98SE environment.

> | > | > | Swapping drives in trays and using the unaccessible drive by

> itself.

> | > | > | Swapping tray insertable locations. Jumpers adjusted

> accordingly.

> | > | > |

> | > | > | During floppy boot (both 98SE and ME), have observed the access

> LED

> | > on

> | > | > the

> | > | > | tray indicating access to that hard drive. PC locks up

> everytime.

> | > | > Similar

> | > | > | in XP boot, ME and 98SE when I open windows explorer to

> investigate

> | > My

> | > | > | Computer. WDC diagnostic tool on bootable floppy similar

> results.

> | > | > | ------------------------------------------------------

> | > | > |

> | > | > | For those who want more precise info the one I'm having trouble

> with

> | > is

> | > | > IDE2

> | > | > | drive.

> | > | > |

> | > | > | I tried onboard ide with same result both attempting to boot

> with

> | > it,

> | > | > and

> | > | > | booting from floppy and CD with WD diagnostics on it.

> | > | > |

> | > | > | Using a firewire enclosure with the problem drive, XP SP2 disk

> | > manager

> | > | > | remains attempting to make contact with logical disk manager for

> 10

> | > | > minutes.

> | > | > | I stopped it at that point. Attempting to populate, error

> message

> | > said

> | > | > that

> | > | > | the partition(s) may be of Windows 2000 nature. I don't own

> Windows

> | > | > 2000

> | > | > | and the drive has never seen such.

> | > | > |

> | > | > | --

> | > | > | Dave

>

> --

> MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

> --

> _________

>

April 5, 2008

Re: Follow-up

The dividing line between the U.S. government and private large corporations

becomes more and more fuzzy everyday. Both in political contribution

support, and, in the decisions made by our government officials. But, the

comment as part of my signature has nothing to do with that. The so-called

tax I mention is to force those who want a long term police action or an

intervening military conflict to pay up with their wallets in real time, not

borrow that money. Another words, when the President asks for money to

support or increase funding for such, a rider with a tax bill to support

that would also be included. I gave it a 3 month window for initial

outbreaks that can occur without funding support of that nature. Enough

time to protect our interests and so forth.

A war in my book is for obvious and open protection of our own freedom, not

some other nation/country. It is also a war as declared by Congress as

well. If the latter is not satisfied, then it is not a war.

--

Dave

How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3 months

old?

An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

"MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:e9CXXgVlIHA.1768@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> BTW: In an *actual War*, we {America} do NOT fight for control of

> resources.

> We supposedly fight for freedom from oppression.

> IN the present {corporate} Wars, U.S. {not America - U.S. {or US} is a

> separate corporate entity by LAW}] fights for resources AND for finical

> enrichment [private enterprise] through economic stimulus, and direct

> financial gain; such as: from PRIVATE security forces [such as what were

> formerly considered as para-military or mercenary forces {think BlackWater

> and others}] and re-construction enterprises {like Enron, Haliburton,

> etc.}

>

> --

> MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

> --

> _________

>

April 5, 2008

Re: Follow-up

"Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

news:OO5LL%23ylIHA.748@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

| Basically, when both WD 80GB drives were working correctly, I booted from

| the IDE0 (first 80GB) into the system commander menu. In that menu, there

| is a facility for partitioning (partition commander). I simply deleted

| partitions on the IDE1 drive and copy each changed data partition from

IDE0

| to IDE1. This is the only time that the IDE1 drive was inserted. All

| worked fine using this method for well over 2 years. I bought a

replacement

| WD 80GB a couple of days ago online at mwave.com, its on its way via UPS

| snail delivery.

Okay, thanks for this info. sounds like you have a well thought out system

for backing up, and running the various OSs you have.

The only things I would be cautious of regarding your method of

drive/partition backup, would be the potential corruption of MBR and boot

sectors after a course of time.

I think I would occasionally re-format and re-partition the backup disk to

ensure it remains viable. That because, for one, even though the disk is not

used that often, it will eventually have bad sectors. I would do this using

the manufacturer's tool(s) to *clarify* the drive.

Another being the potential degradation of the connectors from this insert

and disconnect procedure. If the pins get intermittent loss, the drive would

become inaccessible or the physical chip code may become corrupted. Hot swap

/ removable trays were designed more for the OCCASSIONAL *replacement* of

devices [generally in RAID and or networked configs]. This can be confirmed

by looking at the entire market, including blade servers and other. It was

never suggested to change out / remove the devices unless absolutely

necessary [at least that's what was previously recommended]. The ONE

modification being IT or other which might plug in the pre-prepared master

setup disk when necessary to perform updates and system re-configs. One can

find these same difficulties when dealing with *docking station* setups.

Additionally, though many feel otherwise, 2000 up OSs seem to NOT do that

well when constantly overwriting their partitions. That's even AFTER

deleting then reforming them. Of course, this will remain debatable, with

those on either side.

|

| The IDE0/1 drives contain ME with Quicken where I do all my financials

| locally (no internet) and still do so, 98SE with NERO 5.5 that copies

| commercial DVDs (no internet), and older installation of XP w/Office 2K.

| IDE0 drive is still intact and completely functional. My onboard SATA

| drives have ME only for system commander functionality, 2 installs of XP.

| One with Office 2003 that I currently use. The second SATA is a copy of

the

| first. I keep images of all those partitions on 2 firewire drives, and

| locally on the SATA logical partitions.

|

| --

| Dave

Again, sounds like a good setup but ... The modifications I would likely

make include the above, and, I would move the running NT based OSs to the

SATAs, and keep the IDE devices as 9X and ME ONLY.

But this is just me, and my thoughts on the matter.

|

| "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

| news:%23tlbFyNlIHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

| >

| > "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

| > news:eyxSgoMlIHA.464@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

| > | No luck with either one of bootable system commander diskettes pair

| > (both

| > | bootable). Same symptoms, floppy accessed at boot time for a moment.

| > | Floppy activity light goes out, and immediately the led indicator

where

| > the

| > | IDE2 problem drive lights up. Stays lit forever.

| > |

| > | Also tried a Suse 8.xxx version of linux boot diskette, getting a

kernel

| > | panic indication.

| > |

| > | Will investigate the windows 2000 partition possibility in an XP

| > newsgroup.

| > | Thanks for trying.

| > | --

| > | Dave

| >

| > Okay. If no luck, try the last suggestion [the no HD power at boot, then

| > connect - NOT using the main computer] to see if you can access the

disk.

| > The boot manager issue [system Commander} brought a bit to the disco

that

| > was missed, though you have already tested that now.

| >

| > More questions or points to ponder.

| >

| > Was this disk set to autobackup the first disk, and was there a

| > brownout/loss of power perhaps?

| > OR, as the disk is apparently in hot-swap trays, did you ensure the disk

| > was not removed during a write process?

| > OR, that it may have been accessed while NOT fully seated in the

| > connector?

| >

| > Did you attempt to determine IF the drive is actually spinning? [Drive

| > light does NOT mean the drive is actually spinning, just means it was

| > attempted at access.]

| >

| > Is the data on this disk irreplacable?

| >

| > Have you ever diagnosed resistor issues on hard drives, and do you have

| > the

| > equipment to do so?

| >

| > ANYWAY, let us know what the results are.

| >

| > | "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

| > | news:OHdnk5JlIHA.748@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

| > | > Wow, okay, must have missed the System Commander AND ME statement

| > | > somewhere...

| > | >

| > | > From what I thought I saw, it appeared that nothing booted with the

| > drive

| > | > in... my mistake

| > | >

| > | > --

| > | > MEB

| > | > --

| > | > _________

| > | >

| > | > "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

| > | > news:uvmcZGHlIHA.4536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

| > | > | Just a small clarification. Both identical hard drives have

system

| > | > | commander (circa 2002) on them. I normally use the Ultra133 TX2

| > card

| > to

| > | > | boot from either of them. With the good one (IDE1) out of the PC,

I

| > can

| > | > | boot to the system commander menu normal icons on the IDE2 drive.

| > What

| > | > that

| > | > | means is the mbr area is normal for the drive, and, the Windows ME

| > | > partition

| > | > | where system commander is installed is accessible to some extent.

| > | > |

| > | > | The only alternative PC available to me is a P166 circa 1998. The

| > bios

| > | > | can't ID the drive. The PC I'm using now can connected to its

| > onboard

| > | > ide.

| > | > |

| > | > | The only thing I've not tried is the system commander boot

| > diskettes.

| > | > I'll

| > | > | give it whirl.

| > | > |

| > | > | --

| > | > | Dave

| > | > | "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

| > | > | news:%23Snb8XClIHA.4480@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

| > | > | > Okay, have looked through both discussions. Seems you may have a

| > | > problem

| > | > | > with the on disk controller chip, indicated by the inability to

| > boot

| > | > with

| > | > | > the drive in the system.

| > | > | > Can you actually hear the hard drive spinning?

| > | > | >

| > | > | > Not saying these will work but as it is just a piece of junk

right

| > | > now:

| > | > | >

| > | > | > Download HDAT2 and MHDD [both free/donationware], attempt to get

| > | > either

| > | > of

| > | > | > these to work with the drive. These use direct controller/BIOS

| > access.

| > | > | >

| > | > | > If unable to get either of these to work, try placing into a

Linux

| > | > box.

| > | > | >

| > | > | > Note: Likely none of this will work.

| > | > | >

| > | > | > Sooooo, if no luck, and its still junk: turn the disk on edge

and

| > slap

| > | > | > against your hand [or really lightly on the desk top]. once or

| > twice,

| > | > both

| > | > | > sides. Retry with the two tools.

| > | > | >

| > | > | > And finally, using an old test computer [one that IS NOT going

to

| > be

| > | > used

| > | > | > for much]:

| > | > | >

| > | > | > Hook up the hard drive cable but DO NOT connect the power cable

to

| > the

| > | > | > hard

| > | > | > drive. Hard set the BIOS to the recommended settings for the

drive

| > | > [can

| > | > | > NOT

| > | > | > be AUTO as the BIOS will not be finding the drive so translation

| > MUST

| > | > be

| > | > | > set]. Start the computer with one of the free tools or a boot

| > floppy.

| > | > | > After

| > | > | > computer boot, connect the power cable to the drive. See if you

| > can

| > | > access

| > | > | > the disk

| > | > | >

| > | > | > --

| > | > | > MEB

| > | > | > --

| > | > | > _________

| > | > | >

| > | > | > "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

| > | > | > news:uGxTXf5kIHA.5396@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

| > | > | > | Here's prior post:

| > | > | > | Background:

| > | > | > | Promise 133 controller card, 2 WDC 80GB hard drives on

removable

| > | > trays.

| > | > | > | Promise bios shows identical drives. First master (alone),

| > second

| > | > | > master

| > | > | > | w/slave (DVD burner).

| > | > | > |

| > | > | > | Unable to access 2nd hard drive.

| > | > | > | Have tried:

| > | > | > | Simple boot floppy with ME dos on it, and same with 98SE dos

on

| > it

| > | > at

| > | > | > boot

| > | > | > | time.

| > | > | > | DriveImage 2002 with 98SE dos on it.

| > | > | > | XP w/SP2.

| > | > | > | WinME window environment.

| > | > | > | 98SE environment.

| > | > | > | Swapping drives in trays and using the unaccessible drive by

| > itself.

| > | > | > | Swapping tray insertable locations. Jumpers adjusted

| > accordingly.

| > | > | > |

| > | > | > | During floppy boot (both 98SE and ME), have observed the

access

| > LED

| > | > on

| > | > | > the

| > | > | > | tray indicating access to that hard drive. PC locks up

| > everytime.

| > | > | > Similar

| > | > | > | in XP boot, ME and 98SE when I open windows explorer to

| > investigate

| > | > My

| > | > | > | Computer. WDC diagnostic tool on bootable floppy similar

| > results.

| > | > | > | ------------------------------------------------------

| > | > | > |

| > | > | > | For those who want more precise info the one I'm having

trouble

| > with

| > | > is

| > | > | > IDE2

| > | > | > | drive.

| > | > | > |

| > | > | > | I tried onboard ide with same result both attempting to boot

| > with

| > | > it,

| > | > | > and

| > | > | > | booting from floppy and CD with WD diagnostics on it.

| > | > | > |

| > | > | > | Using a firewire enclosure with the problem drive, XP SP2 disk

| > | > manager

| > | > | > | remains attempting to make contact with logical disk manager

for

| > 10

| > | > | > minutes.

| > | > | > | I stopped it at that point. Attempting to populate, error

| > message

| > | > said

| > | > | > that

| > | > | > | the partition(s) may be of Windows 2000 nature. I don't own

| > Windows

| > | > | > 2000

| > | > | > | and the drive has never seen such.

| > | > | > |

| > | > | > | --

| > | > | > | Dave

| >

| > --

| > MEB

--

MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

April 5, 2008

Re: Follow-up

"Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

news:OZvFFHzlIHA.1280@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

| The dividing line between the U.S. government and private large

corporations

| becomes more and more fuzzy everyday. Both in political contribution

| support, and, in the decisions made by our government officials. But, the

| comment as part of my signature has nothing to do with that. The

so-called

| tax I mention is to force those who want a long term police action or an

| intervening military conflict to pay up with their wallets in real time,

not

| borrow that money. Another words, when the President asks for money to

| support or increase funding for such, a rider with a tax bill to support

| that would also be included. I gave it a 3 month window for initial

| outbreaks that can occur without funding support of that nature. Enough

| time to protect our interests and so forth.

There is no blur anymore, this administration has shown that WAR is a

financial enterprise. The problem is the people can be easily manipulated to

support corporate motives, and have shown a remarkable dis-interest in

understanding how completely corrupt the governance process has become..

I can see where you come from, but that's suggesting that WAR is a taxable

enterprise.

If you think US would not and does not already tax for a war, then you have

failed to look at the already raised taxes for luxury, sales, lotteries, and

other which have been emplaced.

I would agree with the idea of any war being fully funded PRIOR to any

expendetures and declaration, however, suggesting that tax be modified by

*riders* opens the door to ANY riders including increased taxes. That's all

those special interest *pork barrel* inclusions as well. This type of

allowance would be the precedent necessary to open the tax situation to

*wild west-like* activities. There would be NO WAY to control taxes and the

legislators.

|

| A war in my book is for obvious and open protection of our own freedom,

not

| some other nation/country. It is also a war as declared by Congress as

| well. If the latter is not satisfied, then it is not a war.

|

| --

| Dave

|

| How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3

months

| old?

|

| An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

Again, I would agree on the face of your presentaion, however, Congress can

not be trusted to be above reproach. Government is a BUSINESS, the largest

and still the fastest growing in America. Is there anyone, even those living

in some swamp somewhere, that doesn't understand that this is NOT a

benevolent government with the needs of the people as its driving force?

Not even the GAO bothers to keep track of what money goes where anymore,

and the government seems to feel that those in it DESERVE to live well above

most of the nation's people. ALL of government has given itself raises, the

most recent being the judiciary.

I've mainly kept these out of this group, but perhaps a few more people

need to read them. These were submitted into the courts of America and two

Supreme Court *conservative "federalist"* justices were hand picked and

placed to handle the issues:

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/Expose_crimes_V1.html

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/expose_Volume_II.htm

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/expose_volume_iii.htm

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/expose_Volume_IV.htm

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/expose_volume_v.htm

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/expose_volume_vi.htm

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/expose_volume_viii.htm

Welcome to the "real world".

| "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

| news:e9CXXgVlIHA.1768@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

| > BTW: In an *actual War*, we {America} do NOT fight for control of

| > resources.

| > We supposedly fight for freedom from oppression.

| > IN the present {corporate} Wars, U.S. {not America - U.S. {or US} is a

| > separate corporate entity by LAW}] fights for resources AND for finical

| > enrichment [private enterprise] through economic stimulus, and direct

| > financial gain; such as: from PRIVATE security forces [such as what

were

| > formerly considered as para-military or mercenary forces {think

BlackWater

| > and others}] and re-construction enterprises {like Enron, Haliburton,

| > etc.}

| >

| > --

| > MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

| > --

--

MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

April 11, 2008

Re: Follow-up - on folowup on linked site links

Re: Follow-up - on folowup on linked site links

Great!!! The links to most of the Expose Volumes on my site have, again,

been whacked.

The controllers are in a former eastern block nation:

Maroczi ut.

Budapest, P 1118

HU

Sorry, I do check via various techniques, [Xenu, gsite crawler, other]

though it had been awhile since visiting the actual pages..., the linked

pages open to the server's site link, NOT the actual Expose site page.

Having already been through this a few times with the hosting service

[including losing the entire site once during a "move" of the service], this

has become more than intolerable.

Once again, as I asked here before, does anyone know of a reliable free

hosting service for peoplescounsel?

Or which domain and hosting service would the web masters here recommend?

Is GoDaddy any good...?

Is eNom {which happens to host the hosting service presently being used}?

Is {etc.}?

Any suggestions for where to put the site? [Keep it clean....]

--

MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

--

_________

"MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:uUptH51lIHA.5260@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

|

| "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message

| news:OZvFFHzlIHA.1280@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

| | The dividing line between the U.S. government and private large

| corporations

| | becomes more and more fuzzy everyday. Both in political contribution

| | support, and, in the decisions made by our government officials. But,

the

| | comment as part of my signature has nothing to do with that. The

| so-called

| | tax I mention is to force those who want a long term police action or an

| | intervening military conflict to pay up with their wallets in real time,

| not

| | borrow that money. Another words, when the President asks for money to

| | support or increase funding for such, a rider with a tax bill to support

| | that would also be included. I gave it a 3 month window for initial

| | outbreaks that can occur without funding support of that nature. Enough

| | time to protect our interests and so forth.

|

| There is no blur anymore, this administration has shown that WAR is a

| financial enterprise. The problem is the people can be easily manipulated

to

| support corporate motives, and have shown a remarkable dis-interest in

| understanding how completely corrupt the governance process has become..

|

| I can see where you come from, but that's suggesting that WAR is a

taxable

| enterprise.

| If you think US would not and does not already tax for a war, then you

have

| failed to look at the already raised taxes for luxury, sales, lotteries,

and

| other which have been emplaced.

|

| I would agree with the idea of any war being fully funded PRIOR to any

| expendetures and declaration, however, suggesting that tax be modified by

| *riders* opens the door to ANY riders including increased taxes. That's

all

| those special interest *pork barrel* inclusions as well. This type of

| allowance would be the precedent necessary to open the tax situation to

| *wild west-like* activities. There would be NO WAY to control taxes and

the

| legislators.

|

| |

| | A war in my book is for obvious and open protection of our own freedom,

| not

| | some other nation/country. It is also a war as declared by Congress as

| | well. If the latter is not satisfied, then it is not a war.

| |

| | --

| | Dave

| |

| | How about a tax to support any military conflict/police action over 3

| months

| | old?

| |

| | An actual war, we can do what's been done in the past.

|

| Again, I would agree on the face of your presentaion, however, Congress

can

| not be trusted to be above reproach. Government is a BUSINESS, the largest

| and still the fastest growing in America. Is there anyone, even those

living

| in some swamp somewhere, that doesn't understand that this is NOT a

| benevolent government with the needs of the people as its driving force?

|

| Not even the GAO bothers to keep track of what money goes where anymore,

| and the government seems to feel that those in it DESERVE to live well

above

| most of the nation's people. ALL of government has given itself raises,

the

| most recent being the judiciary.

|

| I've mainly kept these out of this group, but perhaps a few more people

| need to read them. These were submitted into the courts of America and two

| Supreme Court *conservative "federalist"* justices were hand picked and

| placed to handle the issues:

|

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/Expose_crimes_V1.html

|

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/expose_Volume_II.htm

|

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/expose_volume_iii.htm

|

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/expose_Volume_IV.htm

|

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/expose_volume_v.htm

|

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/expose_volume_vi.htm

|

http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/people_v_bonini/expose/expose_volume_viii.htm

|

| Welcome to the "real world".

|

| | "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

| | news:e9CXXgVlIHA.1768@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

| | > BTW: In an *actual War*, we {America} do NOT fight for control of

| | > resources.

| | > We supposedly fight for freedom from oppression.

| | > IN the present {corporate} Wars, U.S. {not America - U.S. {or US} is a

| | > separate corporate entity by LAW}] fights for resources AND for

finical

| | > enrichment [private enterprise] through economic stimulus, and direct

| | > financial gain; such as: from PRIVATE security forces [such as what

| were

| | > formerly considered as para-military or mercenary forces {think

| BlackWater

| | > and others}] and re-construction enterprises {like Enron, Haliburton,

| | > etc.}

| | >

| | > --

| | > MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

| | > --

|

| --

| MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

| --

| _________

|

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