Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

--

_________

April 22, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

That the last time I used a Hotmail account was ten years ago. Recommend DO

NOT use Hotmail or Live.

--

Gary S. Terhune

MS-MVP Shell/User

http://www.grystmill.com

"MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:OrxQTyBpIHA.4848@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>

> Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to access

> Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP and Vista.

> The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol DeltaSynch

> to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

> Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft problematic

> creation?

>

> Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do others think

> about this...

>

> --

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/browse_frm/thread/54b191d2ef1c9614

> --

> _________

>

April 22, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

cf.

No, Windows Live Mail is NOT supported in Win9x.

--

~PA Bear

MEB wrote:

> Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to access

> Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP and Vista.

> The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol DeltaSynch

> to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

> Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft problematic

> creation?

>

> Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do others think

> about this...

April 22, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

Same here, just about coincident with the time it was

purchased by MS and started to require java, every

cookie and script in the book to access and use the site.

"Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message

news:u7BirKCpIHA.2636@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> That the last time I used a Hotmail account was ten years ago. Recommend

DO

> NOT use Hotmail or Live.

>

> --

> Gary S. Terhune

> MS-MVP Shell/User

> http://www.grystmill.com

>

> "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> news:OrxQTyBpIHA.4848@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> >

> > Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to access

> > Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP and Vista.

> > The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol

DeltaSynch

> > to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

> > Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft problematic

> > creation?

> >

> > Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do others think

> > about this...

> >

> > --

> > MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

> > --

> > _________

April 22, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

"PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:uzpopUCpIHA.1240@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

| cf.

|

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/browse_frm/thread/54b191d2ef1c9614

|

| No, Windows Live Mail is NOT supported in Win9x.

| --

| ~PA Bear

Okay, we discussed a year or so ago the Live Mail issue.

So perhaps it might be advisable to include HERE some of the purported

information pulled from the threads PA referenced.>

---------

Hello All,

I wanted to take some time to address the concerns/questions that have

started on this thread.

Microsoft is doing this to force people onto the client: False. We are

doing this because the DAV protocol is inefficient on larger mailbox sizes.

Once Hotmail upgrade storage space synchronization issues happen within DAV.

DeltaSynch is a stable protocol that will be able to efficiently handle

large

accounts.

This locks people into a Microsoft client to access Hotmail: False. Hotmail

customers are able to utilize POP3, or as mentioned below, other clients

such

as Thunderbird. Though Live Mail is optimized for usage against Hotmail, it

is not the single choice for connection. You will also be able to continue

full access through your browser.

Does this affect Live Hotmail and Outlook Connector - Yes. Any user

utilizing Outlook connector 1.8 or earlier will need to upgrade to the new

OLC. Live Mail is currently DeltaSynch ready and Live Hotmail is available

through your browser.

-----

Scott Hammer

Sr. Supportability Program Manager

Windows Live Mail Technologies

Microsoft Corporation

------- end post

Subject: Re: ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook

Expre

To correct myself...

Hotmail customers are able to utilize POP3, or as mentioned below, other

clients such as Thunderbird.

I meant Hotmail PLUS customers are able to utilize POP3 as they currently

do...

---

Scott Hammer

Sr. Support Program Manager

Windows Live Mail Technologies

Microsoft Corporation

----

So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and other

contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live, registered

with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed in the

process?

|

| MEB wrote:

| > Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to access

| > Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP and Vista.

| > The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol

DeltaSynch

| > to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

| > Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft problematic

| > creation?

| >

| > Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do others think

| > about this...

|

--

--

_________

April 22, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

What I know is that I've been using Hotmail and accessing it via Outlook

Express for over a decade now. I seldom ever use any web based email account

via the browser except for accounts setup specifically to give a valid email

account when registering at a site etc. (gmail etc.) as I never give out my

actual ISP email address (and hence get basically no spam in it).

What is nice about OE interface is that I get a local copy on my pc of the

email. That means I can easily move it into another folder and eventually it

gets saved to cd during periodic backup. Now I'll be "forced" to basically

forward Hotmail email to my isp email account for saving. That's better

way!!!???

My own take on things is that MS eventually wants all their software to be

"downloaded as required" with as little as possible kept on local pc. Well

have some "stub" for (as example) Word and when we go to start it the actual

software will be downloaded as needed so we can be billed for it's use every

time that happens.

This Live crap is the harbinger of that design, e.g. get people used to it

first, slowly creep it into mindset etc.

"MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:OrxQTyBpIHA.4848@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>

> Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to access

> Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP and Vista.

> The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol DeltaSynch

> to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

> Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft problematic

> creation?

>

> Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do others think

> about this...

>

> --

> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/browse_frm/thread/54b191d2ef1c9614

> --

> _________

>

April 22, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

PS: If you're a Windows Live Hotmail Plus subscriber *and* access your

Hotmail account in OE via POP3, this policy change will NOT affect you.

--

~PA Bear

PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:

> cf.

>

> No, Windows Live Mail is NOT supported in Win9x.

>

> MEB wrote:

>> Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to access

>> Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP and Vista.

>> The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol DeltaSynch

>> to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

>> Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft problematic

>> creation?

>>

>> Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do others think

>> about this...

April 22, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

[Crossposted to the little-trafficked Internet Mail (which is supposedly

being monitored by the Windows Live Mail team now) and Win98.OE newsgroups

for widest exposure.]

> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and other

> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live, registered

> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed in the

> process?

Actually, Win9x users have a few choices here:

1. You'll still be able to access your email archive via the webmail page

after 30 June 2008. IOW your data won't be deleted there (unless the

account hasn't been accessed for XX days).

2a. You can Copy or Move all Hotmail messages to one or more local OE

folders for archiving prior to 30 June 2008. [Do NOT use the OE local

folders Inbox, Sent Items, or Deleted Items folders for archiving ANYTHING!]

this account when sending or synchronizing

If you disable the above option /prior to 30 June 2008/, OE will not attempt

to sync with the WebDAV server again; therefore your Hotmail messages and

folders in OE won't/can't be deleted by the (non-existant) server. <eg>

NB: If you attempt to send a message using your Hotmail account or poll the

account for new messages, OE *will* attempt to synchronize with the

(non-existant) WebDAV server and all your data *will* be deleted from OE!

3. Prior to 30 June 2008:

a. subscribe to Windows Live Hotmail Plus (US$19.95/year; not available

in all countries); *and*

b. make sure you're accessing the Hotmail account in OE via POP3 (cf.

http://liveunplugged.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!F92775FC46A390CA!171.entry).

===============

Windows Live Hotmail Support & FAQ

https://support.live.com/eform.aspx?productKey=wlmail&ct=eformts

--

~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)

MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002

AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net

DTS-L http://dts-l.net/

MEB wrote:

> PA Bear wrote:

>> cf.

>> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/browse_frm/thread/54b191d2ef1c9614

>>

>> No, Windows Live Mail is NOT supported in Win9x.

>>

> Okay, we discussed a year or so ago the Live Mail issue.

>

> So perhaps it might be advisable to include HERE some of the purported

> information pulled from the threads PA referenced.

<snip>

cf.

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/94fd442cf4ac054e

cf.

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/5d4a99b1322267f3

</snip>

> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and other

> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live, registered

> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed in the

> process?

>

>> MEB wrote:

>>> Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to access

>>> Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP and Vista.

>>> The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol

>>> DeltaSynch

>>> to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

>>> Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft problematic

>>> creation?

>>>

>>> Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do others think

>>> about this...

April 22, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

PA is correct. There is also a migration that will happen when you install

WLM from Oe that should take care of this as well.

-s

--

Scott Hammer

Sr. Support Program Manager

Windows Live Mail Technologies

Microsoft Corporation

"PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:eEwvA9IpIHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> [Crossposted to the little-trafficked Internet Mail (which is supposedly

> being monitored by the Windows Live Mail team now) and Win98.OE newsgroups

> for widest exposure.]

>

>> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and other

>> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

>> registered

>> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed in the

>> process?

>

> Actually, Win9x users have a few choices here:

>

> 1. You'll still be able to access your email archive via the webmail page

> after 30 June 2008. IOW your data won't be deleted there (unless the

> account hasn't been accessed for XX days).

>

> 2a. You can Copy or Move all Hotmail messages to one or more local OE

> folders for archiving prior to 30 June 2008. [Do NOT use the OE local

> folders Inbox, Sent Items, or Deleted Items folders for archiving

> ANYTHING!]

>

> Include this account when sending or synchronizing

>

> If you disable the above option /prior to 30 June 2008/, OE will not

> attempt to sync with the WebDAV server again; therefore your Hotmail

> messages and folders in OE won't/can't be deleted by the (non-existant)

> server. <eg>

>

> NB: If you attempt to send a message using your Hotmail account or poll

> the account for new messages, OE *will* attempt to synchronize with the

> (non-existant) WebDAV server and all your data *will* be deleted from OE!

>

> 3. Prior to 30 June 2008:

>

> a. subscribe to Windows Live Hotmail Plus (US$19.95/year; not available

> in all countries); *and*

>

> b. make sure you're accessing the Hotmail account in OE via POP3 (cf.

> http://liveunplugged.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!F92775FC46A390CA!171.entry).

>

> ===============

>

> Windows Live Hotmail Support & FAQ

> https://support.live.com/eform.aspx?productKey=wlmail&ct=eformts

> --

> ~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)

> MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002

> AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net

> DTS-L http://dts-l.net/

>

> MEB wrote:

>> PA Bear wrote:

>>> cf.

>>> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/browse_frm/thread/54b191d2ef1c9614

>>>

>>> No, Windows Live Mail is NOT supported in Win9x.

>>>

>> Okay, we discussed a year or so ago the Live Mail issue.

>>

>> So perhaps it might be advisable to include HERE some of the purported

>> information pulled from the threads PA referenced.

> <snip>

>

> cf.

> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/94fd442cf4ac054e

>

> cf.

> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/5d4a99b1322267f3

>

> </snip>

>> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and other

>> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

>> registered

>> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed in the

>> process?

>>

>>> MEB wrote:

>>>> Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to access

>>>> Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP and Vista.

>>>> The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol

>>>> DeltaSynch

>>>> to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

>>>> Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft problematic

>>>> creation?

>>>>

>>>> Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do others think

>>>> about this...

>

April 22, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

Continuing the crosspost to microsoft.public.internet.mail,

microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion, and

microsoft.public.win98.internet.outlookexpress newsgroups.

NB: This thread originated in microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion

newsgroup and is a Win9x-specific discussion

Windows Live Mail is not supported in Win9x.

--

~PA Bear

Windows Live Mail Technologies Support wrote:

> PA is correct. There is also a migration that will happen when you

> install

> WLM from Oe that should take care of this as well.

>

> -s

>

>> [Crossposted to the little-trafficked Internet Mail (which is supposedly

>> being monitored by the Windows Live Mail team now) and Win98.OE

>> newsgroups

>> for widest exposure.]

>>

>>> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and other

>>> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

>>> registered

>>> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed in

>>> the

>>> process?

>>

>> Actually, Win9x users have a few choices here:

>>

>> 1. You'll still be able to access your email archive via the webmail page

>> after 30 June 2008. IOW your data won't be deleted there (unless the

>> account hasn't been accessed for XX days).

>>

>> 2a. You can Copy or Move all Hotmail messages to one or more local OE

>> folders for archiving prior to 30 June 2008. [Do NOT use the OE local

>> folders Inbox, Sent Items, or Deleted Items folders for archiving

>> ANYTHING!]

>>

>> Include this account when sending or synchronizing

>>

>> If you disable the above option /prior to 30 June 2008/, OE will not

>> attempt to sync with the WebDAV server again; therefore your Hotmail

>> messages and folders in OE won't/can't be deleted by the (non-existant)

>> server. <eg>

>>

>> NB: If you attempt to send a message using your Hotmail account or poll

>> the account for new messages, OE *will* attempt to synchronize with the

>> (non-existant) WebDAV server and all your data *will* be deleted from OE!

>>

>> 3. Prior to 30 June 2008:

>>

>> a. subscribe to Windows Live Hotmail Plus (US$19.95/year; not

>> available

>> in all countries); *and*

>>

>> b. make sure you're accessing the Hotmail account in OE via POP3 (cf.

>> http://liveunplugged.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!F92775FC46A390CA!171.entry).

>>

>> ===============

>>

>> Windows Live Hotmail Support & FAQ

>> https://support.live.com/eform.aspx?productKey=wlmail&ct=eformts

>> --

>> ~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)

>> MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002

>> AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net

>> DTS-L http://dts-l.net/

>>

>> MEB wrote:

>>> PA Bear wrote:

>>>> cf.

>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/browse_frm/thread/54b191d2ef1c9614

>>>>

>>>> No, Windows Live Mail is NOT supported in Win9x.

>>>>

>>> Okay, we discussed a year or so ago the Live Mail issue.

>>>

>>> So perhaps it might be advisable to include HERE some of the purported

>>> information pulled from the threads PA referenced.

>> <snip>

>>

>> cf.

>> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/94fd442cf4ac054e

>>

>> cf.

>> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/5d4a99b1322267f3

>>

>> </snip>

>>> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and other

>>> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

>>> registered

>>> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed in

>>> the

>>> process?

>>>

>>>> MEB wrote:

>>>>> Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to access

>>>>> Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP and

>>>>> Vista.

>>>>> The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol

>>>>> DeltaSynch

>>>>> to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

>>>>> Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft problematic

>>>>> creation?

>>>>>

>>>>> Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do others

>>>>> think

>>>>> about this...

April 22, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

Well, that's all well and good for Microsoft I suppose, but this account

was specifically setup for registration to the courts and government, and

DOES contain irreplaceable and important [think Notices, court submissions,

email confirmations and other pursuant the CM/ECF {Electronic Case

Management System} of the court system] and is the web only interface.

However, I also have another private Hotmail account to which I recently

linked this account.

The question was how to get these documents off the web only account

intact.

As you are now representing Microsoft's issues in this forum:

Would transferring these "can not destroy or modify" documents to the inbox

of the web only account folder, then allow me to pull these via the other

link Hotmail account via OE WITHOUT damage or loss [done of course prior to

the date published]?

NOTE: there a few hundred saved court and other messages which need moved

from this service as the web and private accounts will likely be closed due

to this new format. There certainly are other services available.

Forget the new interface installation, this is being posted via the Windows

98 general discussion group. And I likely will not place this installation

into any other Microsoft OS available

--

http://liveunplugged.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!F92775FC46A390CA!171.entry).

--

_________

"Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

<WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

message news:C9B69094-0C08-48BD-AA0D-9266804906D0@microsoft.com...

| PA is correct. There is also a migration that will happen when you

install

| WLM from Oe that should take care of this as well.

|

| -s

|

| --

| Scott Hammer

| Sr. Support Program Manager

| Windows Live Mail Technologies

| Microsoft Corporation

| "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

| news:eEwvA9IpIHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

| > [Crossposted to the little-trafficked Internet Mail (which is supposedly

| > being monitored by the Windows Live Mail team now) and Win98.OE

newsgroups

| > for widest exposure.]

| >

| >> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and other

| >> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

| >> registered

| >> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed in

the

| >> process?

| >

| > Actually, Win9x users have a few choices here:

| >

| > 1. You'll still be able to access your email archive via the webmail

page

| > after 30 June 2008. IOW your data won't be deleted there (unless the

| > account hasn't been accessed for XX days).

| >

| > 2a. You can Copy or Move all Hotmail messages to one or more local OE

| > folders for archiving prior to 30 June 2008. [Do NOT use the OE local

| > folders Inbox, Sent Items, or Deleted Items folders for archiving

| > ANYTHING!]

| >

| > Include this account when sending or synchronizing

| >

| > If you disable the above option /prior to 30 June 2008/, OE will not

| > attempt to sync with the WebDAV server again; therefore your Hotmail

| > messages and folders in OE won't/can't be deleted by the (non-existant)

| > server. <eg>

| >

| > NB: If you attempt to send a message using your Hotmail account or poll

| > the account for new messages, OE *will* attempt to synchronize with the

| > (non-existant) WebDAV server and all your data *will* be deleted from

OE!

| >

| > 3. Prior to 30 June 2008:

| >

| > a. subscribe to Windows Live Hotmail Plus (US$19.95/year; not

available

| > in all countries); *and*

| >

| > b. make sure you're accessing the Hotmail account in OE via POP3 (cf.

| >

| >

| > ===============

| >

| > Windows Live Hotmail Support & FAQ

| > https://support.live.com/eform.aspx?productKey=wlmail&ct=eformts

| > --

| > ~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)

| > MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002

| > AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net

| > DTS-L http://dts-l.net/

| >

| > MEB wrote:

| >> PA Bear wrote:

| >>> cf.

| >>>

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/browse_frm/thread/54b191d2ef1c9614

| >>>

| >>> No, Windows Live Mail is NOT supported in Win9x.

| >>>

| >> Okay, we discussed a year or so ago the Live Mail issue.

| >>

| >> So perhaps it might be advisable to include HERE some of the purported

| >> information pulled from the threads PA referenced.

| > <snip>

| >

| > cf.

| >

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/94fd442cf4ac054e

| >

| > cf.

| >

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/5d4a99b1322267f3

| >

| > </snip>

| >> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and other

| >> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

| >> registered

| >> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed in

the

| >> process?

| >>

| >>> MEB wrote:

| >>>> Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to access

| >>>> Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP and

Vista.

| >>>> The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol

| >>>> DeltaSynch

| >>>> to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

| >>>> Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft

problematic

| >>>> creation?

| >>>>

| >>>> Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do others

think

| >>>> about this...

| >

|

April 22, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

> As you are now representing Microsoft's issues in this forum...

NB lurkers: MEB is replying to Scott Hammer of the WLMail team here, not me.

MS MVPs do *not* represent Microsoft. Thank you.

--

~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)

MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002

MEB wrote:

> Well, that's all well and good for Microsoft I suppose, but this account

> was specifically setup for registration to the courts and government, and

> DOES contain irreplaceable and important [think Notices, court

> submissions,

> email confirmations and other pursuant the CM/ECF {Electronic Case

> Management System} of the court system] and is the web only interface.

> However, I also have another private Hotmail account to which I recently

> linked this account.

>

> The question was how to get these documents off the web only account

> intact.

>

> As you are now representing Microsoft's issues in this forum:

>

> Would transferring these "can not destroy or modify" documents to the

> inbox

> of the web only account folder, then allow me to pull these via the other

> link Hotmail account via OE WITHOUT damage or loss [done of course prior

> to

> the date published]?

> NOTE: there a few hundred saved court and other messages which need moved

> from this service as the web and private accounts will likely be closed

> due

> to this new format. There certainly are other services available.

>

> Forget the new interface installation, this is being posted via the

> Windows

> 98 general discussion group. And I likely will not place this installation

> into any other Microsoft OS available

>

> --

> http://liveunplugged.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!F92775FC46A390CA!171.entry).

>

> "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

> <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

> message news:C9B69094-0C08-48BD-AA0D-9266804906D0@microsoft.com...

>> PA is correct. There is also a migration that will happen when you

>> install

>> WLM from Oe that should take care of this as well.

>>

>> -s

>>

>> --

>> Scott Hammer

>> Sr. Support Program Manager

>> Windows Live Mail Technologies

>> Microsoft Corporation

>> "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:eEwvA9IpIHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>>> [Crossposted to the little-trafficked Internet Mail (which is supposedly

>>> being monitored by the Windows Live Mail team now) and Win98.OE

>>> newsgroups

>>> for widest exposure.]

>>>

>>>> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and other

>>>> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

>>>> registered

>>>> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed in

>>>> the

>>>> process?

>>>

>>> Actually, Win9x users have a few choices here:

>>>

>>> 1. You'll still be able to access your email archive via the webmail

>>> page

>>> after 30 June 2008. IOW your data won't be deleted there (unless the

>>> account hasn't been accessed for XX days).

>>>

>>> 2a. You can Copy or Move all Hotmail messages to one or more local OE

>>> folders for archiving prior to 30 June 2008. [Do NOT use the OE local

>>> folders Inbox, Sent Items, or Deleted Items folders for archiving

>>> ANYTHING!]

>>>

>>> Include this account when sending or synchronizing

>>>

>>> If you disable the above option /prior to 30 June 2008/, OE will not

>>> attempt to sync with the WebDAV server again; therefore your Hotmail

>>> messages and folders in OE won't/can't be deleted by the (non-existant)

>>> server. <eg>

>>>

>>> NB: If you attempt to send a message using your Hotmail account or poll

>>> the account for new messages, OE *will* attempt to synchronize with the

>>> (non-existant) WebDAV server and all your data *will* be deleted from

>>> OE!

>>>

>>> 3. Prior to 30 June 2008:

>>>

>>> a. subscribe to Windows Live Hotmail Plus (US$19.95/year; not

>>> available

>>> in all countries); *and*

>>>

>>> b. make sure you're accessing the Hotmail account in OE via POP3 (cf.

>>>

>>>

>>> ===============

>>>

>>> Windows Live Hotmail Support & FAQ

>>> https://support.live.com/eform.aspx?productKey=wlmail&ct=eformts

>>> --

>>> ~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)

>>> MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002

>>> AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net

>>> DTS-L http://dts-l.net/

>>>

>>> MEB wrote:

>>>> PA Bear wrote:

>>>>> cf.

>>>>>

> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/browse_frm/thread/54b191d2ef1c9614

>>>>>

>>>>> No, Windows Live Mail is NOT supported in Win9x.

>>>>>

>>>> Okay, we discussed a year or so ago the Live Mail issue.

>>>>

>>>> So perhaps it might be advisable to include HERE some of the purported

>>>> information pulled from the threads PA referenced.

>>> <snip>

>>>

>>> cf.

>>>

> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/94fd442cf4ac054e

>>>

>>> cf.

>>>

> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/5d4a99b1322267f3

>>>

>>> </snip>

>>>> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and other

>>>> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

>>>> registered

>>>> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed in

>>>> the

>>>> process?

>>>>

>>>>> MEB wrote:

>>>>>> Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to access

>>>>>> Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP and

>>>>>> Vista.

>>>>>> The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol

>>>>>> DeltaSynch

>>>>>> to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

>>>>>> Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft

>>>>>> problematic

>>>>>> creation?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do others

>>>>>> think

>>>>>> about this...

April 22, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

Hi MEB,

I'm hoping that I understand the question correctly, please let me know if

not. When you accessed this account in Outlook Express, did you save

messages on the server? If so, then those mails will still be located in

your Hotmail folder, provided there isn't inactivity >90 days.

If you didn't save them on the server, then these mails will be located in

your Outlook Express mail data file. This is what will be migrated if you

install WLM. This tool does work very well. That being said, Microsoft does

not make any implicit or explicit statements regarding the integrity of data

involved in that migration. As the owner of that data, you are solely

responsible for backing up your data and ensuring recoverability. The

Windows Live Hotmail service does not hold long term data backups of

accounts.

I also want to be clear that this doesn't have any affect on the Windows

Live Hotmail web interface, only accessing Hotmail through HTTP using DAV in

Outlook Express. I hope this helps to answer your concerns. If not, I'm

happy to continue to help.

-so

--

Scott Hammer

Sr. Support Program Manager

Windows Live Mail Technologies

Microsoft Corporation

"MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:eGEZoJKpIHA.4292@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> Well, that's all well and good for Microsoft I suppose, but this account

> was specifically setup for registration to the courts and government, and

> DOES contain irreplaceable and important [think Notices, court

> submissions,

> email confirmations and other pursuant the CM/ECF {Electronic Case

> Management System} of the court system] and is the web only interface.

> However, I also have another private Hotmail account to which I recently

> linked this account.

>

> The question was how to get these documents off the web only account

> intact.

>

> As you are now representing Microsoft's issues in this forum:

>

> Would transferring these "can not destroy or modify" documents to the

> inbox

> of the web only account folder, then allow me to pull these via the other

> link Hotmail account via OE WITHOUT damage or loss [done of course prior

> to

> the date published]?

> NOTE: there a few hundred saved court and other messages which need moved

> from this service as the web and private accounts will likely be closed

> due

> to this new format. There certainly are other services available.

>

> Forget the new interface installation, this is being posted via the

> Windows

> 98 general discussion group. And I likely will not place this installation

> into any other Microsoft OS available

>

> --

> http://liveunplugged.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!F92775FC46A390CA!171.entry).

> --

> _________

>

> "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

> <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

> message news:C9B69094-0C08-48BD-AA0D-9266804906D0@microsoft.com...

> | PA is correct. There is also a migration that will happen when you

> install

> | WLM from Oe that should take care of this as well.

> |

> | -s

> |

> | --

> | Scott Hammer

> | Sr. Support Program Manager

> | Windows Live Mail Technologies

> | Microsoft Corporation

> | "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

> | news:eEwvA9IpIHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> | > [Crossposted to the little-trafficked Internet Mail (which is

> supposedly

> | > being monitored by the Windows Live Mail team now) and Win98.OE

> newsgroups

> | > for widest exposure.]

> | >

> | >> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and other

> | >> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

> | >> registered

> | >> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed in

> the

> | >> process?

> | >

> | > Actually, Win9x users have a few choices here:

> | >

> | > 1. You'll still be able to access your email archive via the webmail

> page

> | > after 30 June 2008. IOW your data won't be deleted there (unless the

> | > account hasn't been accessed for XX days).

> | >

> | > 2a. You can Copy or Move all Hotmail messages to one or more local OE

> | > folders for archiving prior to 30 June 2008. [Do NOT use the OE local

> | > folders Inbox, Sent Items, or Deleted Items folders for archiving

> | > ANYTHING!]

> | >

> | > Include this account when sending or synchronizing

> | >

> | > If you disable the above option /prior to 30 June 2008/, OE will not

> | > attempt to sync with the WebDAV server again; therefore your Hotmail

> | > messages and folders in OE won't/can't be deleted by the

> (non-existant)

> | > server. <eg>

> | >

> | > NB: If you attempt to send a message using your Hotmail account or

> poll

> | > the account for new messages, OE *will* attempt to synchronize with

> the

> | > (non-existant) WebDAV server and all your data *will* be deleted from

> OE!

> | >

> | > 3. Prior to 30 June 2008:

> | >

> | > a. subscribe to Windows Live Hotmail Plus (US$19.95/year; not

> available

> | > in all countries); *and*

> | >

> | > b. make sure you're accessing the Hotmail account in OE via POP3

> (cf.

> | >

> | >

> | > ===============

> | >

> | > Windows Live Hotmail Support & FAQ

> | > https://support.live.com/eform.aspx?productKey=wlmail&ct=eformts

> | > --

> | > ~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)

> | > MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002

> | > AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net

> | > DTS-L http://dts-l.net/

> | >

> | > MEB wrote:

> | >> PA Bear wrote:

> | >>> cf.

> | >>>

> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/browse_frm/thread/54b191d2ef1c9614

> | >>>

> | >>> No, Windows Live Mail is NOT supported in Win9x.

> | >>>

> | >> Okay, we discussed a year or so ago the Live Mail issue.

> | >>

> | >> So perhaps it might be advisable to include HERE some of the

> purported

> | >> information pulled from the threads PA referenced.

> | > <snip>

> | >

> | > cf.

> | >

> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/94fd442cf4ac054e

> | >

> | > cf.

> | >

> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/5d4a99b1322267f3

> | >

> | > </snip>

> | >> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and other

> | >> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

> | >> registered

> | >> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed in

> the

> | >> process?

> | >>

> | >>> MEB wrote:

> | >>>> Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to

> access

> | >>>> Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP and

> Vista.

> | >>>> The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol

> | >>>> DeltaSynch

> | >>>> to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

> | >>>> Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft

> problematic

> | >>>> creation?

> | >>>>

> | >>>> Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do others

> think

> | >>>> about this...

> | >

> |

>

April 23, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

"Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

<WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

message news:17E84DD2-D0FB-4910-AEE3-4199CF3F7C9E@microsoft.com...

| Hi MEB,

|

| I'm hoping that I understand the question correctly, please let me know if

| not. When you accessed this account in Outlook Express, did you save

| messages on the server? If so, then those mails will still be located in

| your Hotmail folder, provided there isn't inactivity >90 days.

|

| If you didn't save them on the server, then these mails will be located in

| your Outlook Express mail data file. This is what will be migrated if you

| install WLM. This tool does work very well. That being said, Microsoft

does

| not make any implicit or explicit statements regarding the integrity of

data

| involved in that migration. As the owner of that data, you are solely

| responsible for backing up your data and ensuring recoverability. The

| Windows Live Hotmail service does not hold long term data backups of

| accounts.

|

| I also want to be clear that this doesn't have any affect on the Windows

| Live Hotmail web interface, only accessing Hotmail through HTTP using DAV

in

| Outlook Express. I hope this helps to answer your concerns. If not, I'm

| happy to continue to help.

|

| -so

|

| --

| Scott Hammer

| Sr. Support Program Manager

| Windows Live Mail Technologies

| Microsoft Corporation

Thank you Scott, for the response.

The documents are saved in the web ONLY Hotmail account, however, recently

the ability to link to other accounts was used pursuant the private DAV

account which is accessible via OE [or another capable Mail program].

Therefore, the web mail INBOX can be transferred to the other private DAV

account and retrieved, though no other synchronization occurs.

The issues under review are:

That due, in part, to the change in Microsoft's original Mail to >

MSN/Hotmail to > Live > and now this new proprietary protocol, I question

whether I should continue to use the service. I won't go into the fact that

during these changes somehow a few of my prior accounts were "lost" during

that change over.

Taken with the posted activities pursuant "providing a better Email

experience" in the Live accounts [as indicated in the user documents and

agreements] which are apparently used to provide advertising and/or other,

targeted at the type of Email being received [which of course apparently

means Email and other monitoring], and that [general] information

potentially being shared with "partners" of Live and/or Microsoft [which I

personally believe borders on invasion of privacy and other like related

issues regardless of the Legal Notices and contracts/agreements involved

with use of the service], I can not, in good conscience, associate with that

type of activity. Yes, I have read the supposed explanations and agreements.

That being said, as previously indicated, the primary issue is:

A plain and clear statement concerning whether I can move the WEB based

Saved documents [yes in distinct folders specifically created for them on

the Live /Hotmail server] back into the INBOX in the WEB account > then

download them via the soon to be non-existent DAV account so they may be

preserved as required. I do not expect a "guarantee" but I do expect an

intelligent direct response which provides that answer. If you can suggest

some potentially safe limit to move/retrieve at one time, that would be

appreciated.

I would imagine that other users would also be interested in a short

statement concerning the ability to link and/or access using the new

interface/application and protocol, including other using EMail clients and

services [to><from].

Moreover, as we are also presently discussing this in the OE news group

[soon to be defunct apparently] and internet mail, I am rather sure there

may be a decided interest in the ability of others who might be presently be

using the Live service or might consider such in the future, as to whether

there may be other methods allowed and/or which might in the future be

allowed when using the free and/or WEB based accounts pursuant to accessing

them; and perhaps a short explanation of the intent and purpose of the

apparent monitoring of the Live accounts [hint - try NOT to make it sound

like a business decision, and in a fashion which might be understood by the

attending audience - the world].

BTW: you indicated that Live/Hotmail does NOT provide long term storage, so

perhaps you might wish to explain the gigabytes of offered storage capacity

and an explaination of why someone should perhaps pay for the service or use

it when there is no provided backup [per your statement] nor assurance that

any [court, business, personal, etc.] data/saved messages might not be lost.

Please feel free to correct any errors or mis-directions in the above, or

provide a response to same should you deem it necessary.

--

--

_________

| "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

| news:eGEZoJKpIHA.4292@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

| > Well, that's all well and good for Microsoft I suppose, but this account

| > was specifically setup for registration to the courts and government,

and

| > DOES contain irreplaceable and important [think Notices, court

| > submissions,

| > email confirmations and other pursuant the CM/ECF {Electronic Case

| > Management System} of the court system] and is the web only interface.

| > However, I also have another private Hotmail account to which I recently

| > linked this account.

| >

| > The question was how to get these documents off the web only account

| > intact.

| >

| > As you are now representing Microsoft's issues in this forum:

| >

| > Would transferring these "can not destroy or modify" documents to the

| > inbox

| > of the web only account folder, then allow me to pull these via the

other

| > link Hotmail account via OE WITHOUT damage or loss [done of course prior

| > to

| > the date published]?

| > NOTE: there a few hundred saved court and other messages which need

moved

| > from this service as the web and private accounts will likely be closed

| > due

| > to this new format. There certainly are other services available.

| >

| > Forget the new interface installation, this is being posted via the

| > Windows

| > 98 general discussion group. And I likely will not place this

installation

| > into any other Microsoft OS available

| >

| > --

http://liveunplugged.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!F92775FC46A390CA!171.entry).

| > --

| > _________

| >

| > "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

| > <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

| > message news:C9B69094-0C08-48BD-AA0D-9266804906D0@microsoft.com...

| > | PA is correct. There is also a migration that will happen when you

| > install

| > | WLM from Oe that should take care of this as well.

| > |

| > | -s

| > |

| > | --

| > | Scott Hammer

| > | Sr. Support Program Manager

| > | Windows Live Mail Technologies

| > | Microsoft Corporation

| > | "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

| > | news:eEwvA9IpIHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

| > | > [Crossposted to the little-trafficked Internet Mail (which is

| > supposedly

| > | > being monitored by the Windows Live Mail team now) and Win98.OE

| > newsgroups

| > | > for widest exposure.]

| > | >

| > | >> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and

other

| > | >> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

| > | >> registered

| > | >> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed

in

| > the

| > | >> process?

| > | >

| > | > Actually, Win9x users have a few choices here:

| > | >

| > | > 1. You'll still be able to access your email archive via the webmail

| > page

| > | > after 30 June 2008. IOW your data won't be deleted there (unless

the

| > | > account hasn't been accessed for XX days).

| > | >

| > | > 2a. You can Copy or Move all Hotmail messages to one or more local

OE

| > | > folders for archiving prior to 30 June 2008. [Do NOT use the OE

local

| > | > folders Inbox, Sent Items, or Deleted Items folders for archiving

| > | > ANYTHING!]

| > | >

| > | > Include this account when sending or synchronizing

| > | >

| > | > If you disable the above option /prior to 30 June 2008/, OE will not

| > | > attempt to sync with the WebDAV server again; therefore your Hotmail

| > | > messages and folders in OE won't/can't be deleted by the

| > (non-existant)

| > | > server. <eg>

| > | >

| > | > NB: If you attempt to send a message using your Hotmail account or

| > poll

| > | > the account for new messages, OE *will* attempt to synchronize with

| > the

| > | > (non-existant) WebDAV server and all your data *will* be deleted

from

| > OE!

| > | >

| > | > 3. Prior to 30 June 2008:

| > | >

| > | > a. subscribe to Windows Live Hotmail Plus (US$19.95/year; not

| > available

| > | > in all countries); *and*

| > | >

| > | > b. make sure you're accessing the Hotmail account in OE via POP3

| > (cf.

| > | >

| >

| > | >

| > | > ===============

| > | >

| > | > Windows Live Hotmail Support & FAQ

| > | > https://support.live.com/eform.aspx?productKey=wlmail&ct=eformts

| > | > --

| > | > ~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)

| > | > MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002

| > | > AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net

| > | > DTS-L http://dts-l.net/

| > | >

| > | > MEB wrote:

| > | >> PA Bear wrote:

| > | >>> cf.

| > | >>>

| >

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/browse_frm/thread/54b191d2ef1c9614

| > | >>>

| > | >>> No, Windows Live Mail is NOT supported in Win9x.

| > | >>>

| > | >> Okay, we discussed a year or so ago the Live Mail issue.

| > | >>

| > | >> So perhaps it might be advisable to include HERE some of the

| > purported

| > | >> information pulled from the threads PA referenced.

| > | > <snip>

| > | >

| > | > cf.

| > | >

| >

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/94fd442cf4ac054e

| > | >

| > | > cf.

| > | >

| >

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/5d4a99b1322267f3

| > | >

| > | > </snip>

| > | >> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and

other

| > | >> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

| > | >> registered

| > | >> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being destroyed

in

| > the

| > | >> process?

| > | >>

| > | >>> MEB wrote:

| > | >>>> Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to

| > access

| > | >>>> Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP and

| > Vista.

| > | >>>> The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol

| > | >>>> DeltaSynch

| > | >>>> to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

| > | >>>> Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft

| > problematic

| > | >>>> creation?

| > | >>>>

| > | >>>> Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do others

| > think

| > | >>>> about this...

| > | >

| > |

| >

|

April 23, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

HI MEB,

Thanks for the response. Let me call out some answers to your

questions/concerns. I'll do my best to not be too business-y. :)

- Data Storage: We do hold backups for seven days for all accounts. Windows

Live Hotmail has millions of accounts and we just can't feasibly hold long

term backups for that amount of data. Each user has 5GB of storage, that

combined with millions of accounts would prove an massive amount of storage

needed to do this for a longer term. If a user removes something

inadvertently, we MAY be able to recover if it is under 7 days. This is

comparable to other mail services.

- Privacy: Microsoft as a whole is very strict on privacy and information

sharing. We never sell or freely distribute our customers information.

Every employee is required to take privacy handling training yearly.

- Linking to Web based mail/downloading documents: Yes, you will be able to

use Windows Live Mail client to access the web files, and download them to

your local machine. Your documents are backed up nightly, but those backups

are only stored for seven days. Your data will be intact as long as you

continue to log into your account. This migration will not affect any data

stored in your Hotmail account that is accessible through the Web interface.

The data I referred to was any that may have been pulled down to your local

machine and removed from the Hotmail account.

- Monitoring of Accounts: I'm not sure what you are referring to here. We do

not monitor accounts other than for inactivity, which only polls last login

time and not contents. Agents will at times access your account based upon

your request or through user report that an account is being used

maliciously.

I hope I covered all your concerns, if not, please let me know and I will

try to clarify further. :)

-s

--

Scott Hammer

Sr. Support Program Manager

Windows Live Mail Technologies

Microsoft Corporation

"MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:e6aADJRpIHA.1768@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>

> "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

> <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

> message news:17E84DD2-D0FB-4910-AEE3-4199CF3F7C9E@microsoft.com...

> | Hi MEB,

> |

> | I'm hoping that I understand the question correctly, please let me know

> if

> | not. When you accessed this account in Outlook Express, did you save

> | messages on the server? If so, then those mails will still be located in

> | your Hotmail folder, provided there isn't inactivity >90 days.

> |

> | If you didn't save them on the server, then these mails will be located

> in

> | your Outlook Express mail data file. This is what will be migrated if

> you

> | install WLM. This tool does work very well. That being said, Microsoft

> does

> | not make any implicit or explicit statements regarding the integrity of

> data

> | involved in that migration. As the owner of that data, you are solely

> | responsible for backing up your data and ensuring recoverability. The

> | Windows Live Hotmail service does not hold long term data backups of

> | accounts.

> |

> | I also want to be clear that this doesn't have any affect on the Windows

> | Live Hotmail web interface, only accessing Hotmail through HTTP using

> DAV

> in

> | Outlook Express. I hope this helps to answer your concerns. If not, I'm

> | happy to continue to help.

> |

> | -so

> |

> | --

> | Scott Hammer

> | Sr. Support Program Manager

> | Windows Live Mail Technologies

> | Microsoft Corporation

>

> Thank you Scott, for the response.

>

> The documents are saved in the web ONLY Hotmail account, however, recently

> the ability to link to other accounts was used pursuant the private DAV

> account which is accessible via OE [or another capable Mail program].

> Therefore, the web mail INBOX can be transferred to the other private DAV

> account and retrieved, though no other synchronization occurs.

>

> The issues under review are:

> That due, in part, to the change in Microsoft's original Mail to >

> MSN/Hotmail to > Live > and now this new proprietary protocol, I question

> whether I should continue to use the service. I won't go into the fact

> that

> during these changes somehow a few of my prior accounts were "lost" during

> that change over.

> Taken with the posted activities pursuant "providing a better Email

> experience" in the Live accounts [as indicated in the user documents and

> agreements] which are apparently used to provide advertising and/or other,

> targeted at the type of Email being received [which of course apparently

> means Email and other monitoring], and that [general] information

> potentially being shared with "partners" of Live and/or Microsoft [which I

> personally believe borders on invasion of privacy and other like related

> issues regardless of the Legal Notices and contracts/agreements involved

> with use of the service], I can not, in good conscience, associate with

> that

> type of activity. Yes, I have read the supposed explanations and

> agreements.

>

> That being said, as previously indicated, the primary issue is:

> A plain and clear statement concerning whether I can move the WEB based

> Saved documents [yes in distinct folders specifically created for them on

> the Live /Hotmail server] back into the INBOX in the WEB account > then

> download them via the soon to be non-existent DAV account so they may be

> preserved as required. I do not expect a "guarantee" but I do expect an

> intelligent direct response which provides that answer. If you can suggest

> some potentially safe limit to move/retrieve at one time, that would be

> appreciated.

> I would imagine that other users would also be interested in a short

> statement concerning the ability to link and/or access using the new

> interface/application and protocol, including other using EMail clients

> and

> services [to><from].

>

> Moreover, as we are also presently discussing this in the OE news group

> [soon to be defunct apparently] and internet mail, I am rather sure there

> may be a decided interest in the ability of others who might be presently

> be

> using the Live service or might consider such in the future, as to whether

> there may be other methods allowed and/or which might in the future be

> allowed when using the free and/or WEB based accounts pursuant to

> accessing

> them; and perhaps a short explanation of the intent and purpose of the

> apparent monitoring of the Live accounts [hint - try NOT to make it sound

> like a business decision, and in a fashion which might be understood by

> the

> attending audience - the world].

>

> BTW: you indicated that Live/Hotmail does NOT provide long term storage,

> so

> perhaps you might wish to explain the gigabytes of offered storage

> capacity

> and an explaination of why someone should perhaps pay for the service or

> use

> it when there is no provided backup [per your statement] nor assurance

> that

> any [court, business, personal, etc.] data/saved messages might not be

> lost.

>

> Please feel free to correct any errors or mis-directions in the above, or

> provide a response to same should you deem it necessary.

>

> --

> http://liveunplugged.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!F92775FC46A390CA!171.entry).

> --

> _________

>

> | "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> | news:eGEZoJKpIHA.4292@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> | > Well, that's all well and good for Microsoft I suppose, but this

> account

> | > was specifically setup for registration to the courts and government,

> and

> | > DOES contain irreplaceable and important [think Notices, court

> | > submissions,

> | > email confirmations and other pursuant the CM/ECF {Electronic Case

> | > Management System} of the court system] and is the web only interface.

> | > However, I also have another private Hotmail account to which I

> recently

> | > linked this account.

> | >

> | > The question was how to get these documents off the web only account

> | > intact.

> | >

> | > As you are now representing Microsoft's issues in this forum:

> | >

> | > Would transferring these "can not destroy or modify" documents to the

> | > inbox

> | > of the web only account folder, then allow me to pull these via the

> other

> | > link Hotmail account via OE WITHOUT damage or loss [done of course

> prior

> | > to

> | > the date published]?

> | > NOTE: there a few hundred saved court and other messages which need

> moved

> | > from this service as the web and private accounts will likely be

> closed

> | > due

> | > to this new format. There certainly are other services available.

> | >

> | > Forget the new interface installation, this is being posted via the

> | > Windows

> | > 98 general discussion group. And I likely will not place this

> installation

> | > into any other Microsoft OS available

> | >

> | > --

> | > MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

> | > --

> | > _________

> | >

> | > "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

> | > <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote

> in

> | > message news:C9B69094-0C08-48BD-AA0D-9266804906D0@microsoft.com...

> | > | PA is correct. There is also a migration that will happen when you

> | > install

> | > | WLM from Oe that should take care of this as well.

> | > |

> | > | -s

> | > |

> | > | --

> | > | Scott Hammer

> | > | Sr. Support Program Manager

> | > | Windows Live Mail Technologies

> | > | Microsoft Corporation

> | > | "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

> | > | news:eEwvA9IpIHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> | > | > [Crossposted to the little-trafficked Internet Mail (which is

> | > supposedly

> | > | > being monitored by the Windows Live Mail team now) and Win98.OE

> | > newsgroups

> | > | > for widest exposure.]

> | > | >

> | > | >> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and

> other

> | > | >> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

> | > | >> registered

> | > | >> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being

> destroyed

> in

> | > the

> | > | >> process?

> | > | >

> | > | > Actually, Win9x users have a few choices here:

> | > | >

> | > | > 1. You'll still be able to access your email archive via the

> webmail

> | > page

> | > | > after 30 June 2008. IOW your data won't be deleted there (unless

> the

> | > | > account hasn't been accessed for XX days).

> | > | >

> | > | > 2a. You can Copy or Move all Hotmail messages to one or more local

> OE

> | > | > folders for archiving prior to 30 June 2008. [Do NOT use the OE

> local

> | > | > folders Inbox, Sent Items, or Deleted Items folders for archiving

> | > | > ANYTHING!]

> | > | >

> |

> | > | > Include this account when sending or synchronizing

> | > | >

> | > | > If you disable the above option /prior to 30 June 2008/, OE will

> not

> | > | > attempt to sync with the WebDAV server again; therefore your

> Hotmail

> | > | > messages and folders in OE won't/can't be deleted by the

> | > (non-existant)

> | > | > server. <eg>

> | > | >

> | > | > NB: If you attempt to send a message using your Hotmail account or

> | > poll

> | > | > the account for new messages, OE *will* attempt to synchronize

> with

> | > the

> | > | > (non-existant) WebDAV server and all your data *will* be deleted

> from

> | > OE!

> | > | >

> | > | > 3. Prior to 30 June 2008:

> | > | >

> | > | > a. subscribe to Windows Live Hotmail Plus (US$19.95/year; not

> | > available

> | > | > in all countries); *and*

> | > | >

> | > | > b. make sure you're accessing the Hotmail account in OE via

> POP3

> | > (cf.

> | > | >

> | >

> | > | >

> | > | > ===============

> | > | >

> | > | > Windows Live Hotmail Support & FAQ

> | > | > https://support.live.com/eform.aspx?productKey=wlmail&ct=eformts

> | > | > --

> | > | > ~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)

> | > | > MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002

> | > | > AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net

> | > | > DTS-L http://dts-l.net/

> | > | >

> | > | > MEB wrote:

> | > | >> PA Bear wrote:

> | > | >>> cf.

> | > | >>>

> | >

> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/browse_frm/thread/54b191d2ef1c9614

> | > | >>>

> | > | >>> No, Windows Live Mail is NOT supported in Win9x.

> | > | >>>

> | > | >> Okay, we discussed a year or so ago the Live Mail issue.

> | > | >>

> | > | >> So perhaps it might be advisable to include HERE some of the

> | > purported

> | > | >> information pulled from the threads PA referenced.

> | > | > <snip>

> | > | >

> | > | > cf.

> | > | >

> | >

> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/94fd442cf4ac054e

> | > | >

> | > | > cf.

> | > | >

> | >

> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/5d4a99b1322267f3

> | > | >

> | > | > </snip>

> | > | >> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and

> other

> | > | >> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

> | > | >> registered

> | > | >> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being

> destroyed

> in

> | > the

> | > | >> process?

> | > | >>

> | > | >>> MEB wrote:

> | > | >>>> Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon to

> | > access

> | > | >>>> Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP

> and

> | > Vista.

> | > | >>>> The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary protocol

> | > | >>>> DeltaSynch

> | > | >>>> to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

> | > | >>>> Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft

> | > problematic

> | > | >>>> creation?

> | > | >>>>

> | > | >>>> Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do

> others

> | > think

> | > | >>>> about this...

> | > | >

> | > |

> | >

> |

>

April 23, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

MEB wrote:

<snip>

> Moreover, as we are also presently discussing this in the OE news group

> [soon to be defunct apparently]...

Neither OE nor the OE newsgroups are "soon to be defunct."

Although MS stopped all development of OE in 2006 (...), support for OE

(i.e., critical security updates) will continue as long as the OS in which

OE is running is supported. Although (twice-)Extended Support for Win9x

ended in July 2006, WinXP SP3 will be supported through 2014.

That being said and although MS has said nothing publically about this, I

wouldn't be surprised if the little-trafficked

microsoft.public.win98.internet.outlookexpress newsgroup disappeared from

the MS newsserver soon.

--

OE-specific newsgroup:

http://news://msnews.microsoft.com/microsoft.public.outlookexpress.general

~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)

MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002

April 24, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

"Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

<WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

message news:93EC9EE3-E733-41FA-A530-FFD34C255AF1@microsoft.com...

| HI MEB,

Heeey Scott, perhaps I should mention the name is Maurice so at least we

are on an even keel, so to speak.

MEB is *M*aurice *E*dward, *B*rahier

|

| Thanks for the response. Let me call out some answers to your

| questions/concerns. I'll do my best to not be too business-y. :)

|

| - Data Storage: We do hold backups for seven days for all accounts.

Windows

| Live Hotmail has millions of accounts and we just can't feasibly hold long

| term backups for that amount of data. Each user has 5GB of storage, that

| combined with millions of accounts would prove an massive amount of

storage

| needed to do this for a longer term. If a user removes something

| inadvertently, we MAY be able to recover if it is under 7 days. This is

| comparable to other mail services.

I have to grin on that one, this is Microsoft after all. Not to calumniate,

but I don't think there will be any tears rolling down the cheeks for poor

old Microsoft {ooohhhh, what a burden to bear}{grin}. We aren't talking

about some "still being run out of the garage" business here, nor run by

some poor pimply faced geek running around trying to get backers for his

spankin-new dream business.

Yes, users certainly realize Live/Microsoft MAY have millions of users, but

it seems others are able to provide that, and appear to have made it part of

their service. Moreover, as much of the services Microsoft offers have now

been off-loaded to others, as has been shown previously when hacked and

other issues have cropped up [as reported by Microsoft or in press releases

or the News, and otherwise], one would reasonably question that particular

statement.

You do, however, qualify that with the "comparable" statement, which I

suppose it is.

|

| - Privacy: Microsoft as a whole is very strict on privacy and information

| sharing. We never sell or freely distribute our customers information.

| Every employee is required to take privacy handling training yearly.

Okay, we can presume that this is done under terms/conditions of

employment. The issue will remain a discussion point in other venues,

USENET, etc..

|

| - Linking to Web based mail/downloading documents: Yes, you will be able

to

| use Windows Live Mail client to access the web files, and download them to

| your local machine. Your documents are backed up nightly, but those

backups

| are only stored for seven days. Your data will be intact as long as you

| continue to log into your account. This migration will not affect any data

| stored in your Hotmail account that is accessible through the Web

interface.

| The data I referred to was any that may have been pulled down to your

local

| machine and removed from the Hotmail account.

Okay, for the accounts I mentioned {mine- perhaps that's what you are

referring to], but there is also the other users to think about.

So: backups are done nightly - meaning if some thing goes wrong, one could

contact Live/Microsoft within 7 days and MIGHT be able to retrieve the

materials,, is this correct?

IF, however, there is nothing wrong, the backups are still done every

night, and will continue to be available AS LONG AS the messages were NOT

deleted and/or downloaded by the user AND the account is still

current/active [which you previously mentioned as 90 days],,, is that

correct?

Does that apply to all acounts as well, and for future accounts? Free <>

Paid [one would assume that would apply to those paid accounts IF using the

new interface/protocol AND/OR if another Email program is able to also

supply/use that protocol - then downloaded to local stores]

.. Does this indication apply to the FREE web accounts [e.g., may they be

pulled locally]?

Did Microsoft/Live supply/make public the coding so other Email clients

can/could also apply/use that protocol?

It might be useful for you to supply some of the basics [at least] on this

new protocol, such as: WHY is is purported to better than DAV {such as

Security, transfer, whatever...}. With all this Web 2.0 implimentation

floating around, perhaps it might interest some.

As for the interface/migration, that WILL preclude me from accessing the

materials UNLESS I use the web access [as I said, I have no intention of

installing it locally anywhere] - OR is it that one could perhaps use a

competitor's account to pull or transfer those messages too?

|

| - Monitoring of Accounts: I'm not sure what you are referring to here. We

do

| not monitor accounts other than for inactivity, which only polls last

login

| time and not contents. Agents will at times access your account based upon

| your request or through user report that an account is being used

| maliciously.

|

| I hope I covered all your concerns, if not, please let me know and I will

| try to clarify further. :)

Well, of course the answer would be no, but this is hardly the venue to

discuss much else.

Thanks Scott, perhaps others might wish to discuss things with you, be

prepared though, it can get real ugly [though generally not in this group].

|

| -s

|

| --

| Scott Hammer

| Sr. Support Program Manager

| Windows Live Mail Technologies

| Microsoft Corporation

| "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

| news:e6aADJRpIHA.1768@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

| >

| > "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

| > <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

| > message news:17E84DD2-D0FB-4910-AEE3-4199CF3F7C9E@microsoft.com...

| > | Hi MEB,

| > |

| > | I'm hoping that I understand the question correctly, please let me

know

| > if

| > | not. When you accessed this account in Outlook Express, did you save

| > | messages on the server? If so, then those mails will still be located

in

| > | your Hotmail folder, provided there isn't inactivity >90 days.

| > |

| > | If you didn't save them on the server, then these mails will be

located

| > in

| > | your Outlook Express mail data file. This is what will be migrated if

| > you

| > | install WLM. This tool does work very well. That being said,

Microsoft

| > does

| > | not make any implicit or explicit statements regarding the integrity

of

| > data

| > | involved in that migration. As the owner of that data, you are solely

| > | responsible for backing up your data and ensuring recoverability. The

| > | Windows Live Hotmail service does not hold long term data backups of

| > | accounts.

| > |

| > | I also want to be clear that this doesn't have any affect on the

Windows

| > | Live Hotmail web interface, only accessing Hotmail through HTTP using

| > DAV

| > in

| > | Outlook Express. I hope this helps to answer your concerns. If not,

I'm

| > | happy to continue to help.

| > |

| > | -so

| > |

| > | --

| > | Scott Hammer

| > | Sr. Support Program Manager

| > | Windows Live Mail Technologies

| > | Microsoft Corporation

| >

| > Thank you Scott, for the response.

| >

| > The documents are saved in the web ONLY Hotmail account, however,

recently

| > the ability to link to other accounts was used pursuant the private DAV

| > account which is accessible via OE [or another capable Mail program].

| > Therefore, the web mail INBOX can be transferred to the other private

DAV

| > account and retrieved, though no other synchronization occurs.

| >

| > The issues under review are:

| > That due, in part, to the change in Microsoft's original Mail to >

| > MSN/Hotmail to > Live > and now this new proprietary protocol, I

question

| > whether I should continue to use the service. I won't go into the fact

| > that

| > during these changes somehow a few of my prior accounts were "lost"

during

| > that change over.

| > Taken with the posted activities pursuant "providing a better Email

| > experience" in the Live accounts [as indicated in the user documents and

| > agreements] which are apparently used to provide advertising and/or

other,

| > targeted at the type of Email being received [which of course apparently

| > means Email and other monitoring], and that [general] information

| > potentially being shared with "partners" of Live and/or Microsoft [which

I

| > personally believe borders on invasion of privacy and other like related

| > issues regardless of the Legal Notices and contracts/agreements involved

| > with use of the service], I can not, in good conscience, associate with

| > that

| > type of activity. Yes, I have read the supposed explanations and

| > agreements.

| >

| > That being said, as previously indicated, the primary issue is:

| > A plain and clear statement concerning whether I can move the WEB based

| > Saved documents [yes in distinct folders specifically created for them

on

| > the Live /Hotmail server] back into the INBOX in the WEB account > then

| > download them via the soon to be non-existent DAV account so they may be

| > preserved as required. I do not expect a "guarantee" but I do expect an

| > intelligent direct response which provides that answer. If you can

suggest

| > some potentially safe limit to move/retrieve at one time, that would be

| > appreciated.

| > I would imagine that other users would also be interested in a short

| > statement concerning the ability to link and/or access using the new

| > interface/application and protocol, including other using EMail clients

| > and

| > services [to><from].

| >

| > Moreover, as we are also presently discussing this in the OE news group

| > [soon to be defunct apparently] and internet mail, I am rather sure

there

| > may be a decided interest in the ability of others who might be

presently

| > be

| > using the Live service or might consider such in the future, as to

whether

| > there may be other methods allowed and/or which might in the future be

| > allowed when using the free and/or WEB based accounts pursuant to

| > accessing

| > them; and perhaps a short explanation of the intent and purpose of the

| > apparent monitoring of the Live accounts [hint - try NOT to make it

sound

| > like a business decision, and in a fashion which might be understood by

| > the

| > attending audience - the world].

| >

| > BTW: you indicated that Live/Hotmail does NOT provide long term storage,

| > so

| > perhaps you might wish to explain the gigabytes of offered storage

| > capacity

| > and an explaination of why someone should perhaps pay for the service or

| > use

| > it when there is no provided backup [per your statement] nor assurance

| > that

| > any [court, business, personal, etc.] data/saved messages might not be

| > lost.

| >

| > Please feel free to correct any errors or mis-directions in the above,

or

| > provide a response to same should you deem it necessary.

| >

| > --

http://liveunplugged.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!F92775FC46A390CA!171.entry).

| > --

| > _________

| >

| > | "MEB" <meb@not here@hotmail.com> wrote in message

| > | news:eGEZoJKpIHA.4292@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

| > | > Well, that's all well and good for Microsoft I suppose, but this

| > account

| > | > was specifically setup for registration to the courts and

government,

| > and

| > | > DOES contain irreplaceable and important [think Notices, court

| > | > submissions,

| > | > email confirmations and other pursuant the CM/ECF {Electronic Case

| > | > Management System} of the court system] and is the web only

interface.

| > | > However, I also have another private Hotmail account to which I

| > recently

| > | > linked this account.

| > | >

| > | > The question was how to get these documents off the web only account

| > | > intact.

| > | >

| > | > As you are now representing Microsoft's issues in this forum:

| > | >

| > | > Would transferring these "can not destroy or modify" documents to

the

| > | > inbox

| > | > of the web only account folder, then allow me to pull these via the

| > other

| > | > link Hotmail account via OE WITHOUT damage or loss [done of course

| > prior

| > | > to

| > | > the date published]?

| > | > NOTE: there a few hundred saved court and other messages which need

| > moved

| > | > from this service as the web and private accounts will likely be

| > closed

| > | > due

| > | > to this new format. There certainly are other services available.

| > | >

| > | > Forget the new interface installation, this is being posted via the

| > | > Windows

| > | > 98 general discussion group. And I likely will not place this

| > installation

| > | > into any other Microsoft OS available

| > | >

| > | > --

| > | > MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

| > | > --

| > | > _________

| > | >

| > | > "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

| > | > <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote

| > in

| > | > message news:C9B69094-0C08-48BD-AA0D-9266804906D0@microsoft.com...

| > | > | PA is correct. There is also a migration that will happen when

you

| > | > install

| > | > | WLM from Oe that should take care of this as well.

| > | > |

| > | > | -s

| > | > |

| > | > | --

| > | > | Scott Hammer

| > | > | Sr. Support Program Manager

| > | > | Windows Live Mail Technologies

| > | > | Microsoft Corporation

| > | > | "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

| > | > | news:eEwvA9IpIHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

| > | > | > [Crossposted to the little-trafficked Internet Mail (which is

| > | > supposedly

| > | > | > being monitored by the Windows Live Mail team now) and Win98.OE

| > | > newsgroups

| > | > | > for widest exposure.]

| > | > | >

| > | > | >> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and

| > other

| > | > | >> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

| > | > | >> registered

| > | > | >> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being

| > destroyed

| > in

| > | > the

| > | > | >> process?

| > | > | >

| > | > | > Actually, Win9x users have a few choices here:

| > | > | >

| > | > | > 1. You'll still be able to access your email archive via the

| > webmail

| > | > page

| > | > | > after 30 June 2008. IOW your data won't be deleted there

(unless

| > the

| > | > | > account hasn't been accessed for XX days).

| > | > | >

| > | > | > 2a. You can Copy or Move all Hotmail messages to one or more

local

| > OE

| > | > | > folders for archiving prior to 30 June 2008. [Do NOT use the OE

| > local

| > | > | > folders Inbox, Sent Items, or Deleted Items folders for

archiving

| > | > | > ANYTHING!]

| > | > | >

General

| > |

| > | > | > Include this account when sending or synchronizing

| > | > | >

| > | > | > If you disable the above option /prior to 30 June 2008/, OE will

| > not

| > | > | > attempt to sync with the WebDAV server again; therefore your

| > Hotmail

| > | > | > messages and folders in OE won't/can't be deleted by the

| > | > (non-existant)

| > | > | > server. <eg>

| > | > | >

| > | > | > NB: If you attempt to send a message using your Hotmail account

or

| > | > poll

| > | > | > the account for new messages, OE *will* attempt to synchronize

| > with

| > | > the

| > | > | > (non-existant) WebDAV server and all your data *will* be deleted

| > from

| > | > OE!

| > | > | >

| > | > | > 3. Prior to 30 June 2008:

| > | > | >

| > | > | > a. subscribe to Windows Live Hotmail Plus (US$19.95/year; not

| > | > available

| > | > | > in all countries); *and*

| > | > | >

| > | > | > b. make sure you're accessing the Hotmail account in OE via

| > POP3

| > | > (cf.

| > | > | >

| > | >

| >

| > | > | >

| > | > | > ===============

| > | > | >

| > | > | > Windows Live Hotmail Support & FAQ

| > | > | > https://support.live.com/eform.aspx?productKey=wlmail&ct=eformts

| > | > | > --

| > | > | > ~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)

| > | > | > MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since

2002

| > | > | > AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net

| > | > | > DTS-L http://dts-l.net/

| > | > | >

| > | > | > MEB wrote:

| > | > | >> PA Bear wrote:

| > | > | >>> cf.

| > | > | >>>

| > | >

| >

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/browse_frm/thread/54b191d2ef1c9614

| > | > | >>>

| > | > | >>> No, Windows Live Mail is NOT supported in Win9x.

| > | > | >>>

| > | > | >> Okay, we discussed a year or so ago the Live Mail issue.

| > | > | >>

| > | > | >> So perhaps it might be advisable to include HERE some of the

| > | > purported

| > | > | >> information pulled from the threads PA referenced.

| > | > | > <snip>

| > | > | >

| > | > | > cf.

| > | > | >

| > | >

| >

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/94fd442cf4ac054e

| > | > | >

| > | > | > cf.

| > | > | >

| > | >

| >

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser/msg/5d4a99b1322267f3

| > | > | >

| > | > | > </snip>

| > | > | >> So PA how do I pull all the legal documents, court notices, and

| > other

| > | > | >> contained upon and within my specifically created hotmail/live,

| > | > | >> registered

| > | > | >> with the government account, WITHOUT the materials being

| > destroyed

| > in

| > | > the

| > | > | >> process?

| > | > | >>

| > | > | >>> MEB wrote:

| > | > | >>>> Just received notice that there is a new client needed soon

to

| > | > access

| > | > | >>>> Hotmail and Live accounts, which apparently only supports XP

| > and

| > | > Vista.

| > | > | >>>> The reason: Microsoft has created another proprietary

protocol

| > | > | >>>> DeltaSynch

| > | > | >>>> to replace its previous proprietary protocol DAV.

| > | > | >>>> Someone tell me why users should install ANOTHER Microsoft

| > | > problematic

| > | > | >>>> creation?

| > | > | >>>>

| > | > | >>>> Another brilliantly stupid idea from Microsoft. So what do

| > others

| > | > think

| > | > | >>>> about this...

| > | > | >

| > | > |

| > | >

| > |

| >

|

--

--

_________

April 24, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

Request: Since Windows Live Mail is not supported in Win9x, please

discontinue the pointless crossposting of further replies to

microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion and

microsoft.public.win98.internet.outlookexpress newsgroups.

Thanks.

--

~PA Bear

MEB wrote:

> "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

> <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

> message news:93EC9EE3-E733-41FA-A530-FFD34C255AF1@microsoft.com...

>> HI MEB,

>

> Heeey Scott, perhaps I should mention the name is Maurice so at least we

> are on an even keel, so to speak.

> MEB is *M*aurice *E*dward, *B*rahier

April 24, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

Well perhaps that would be a good idea, however, having just attempted the

move of the saved messages to the INBOX of the web account, and attempted to

retrieve them via the linked DAV account [the first 25 messages of a few

hundred], I find they are NOT transferred, even AFTER marking them as NOT

READ. Therefore there may still be a decided interest in this discussion

pursuant the 98 groups, at least until some resolution to the issue is

proved..

--

--

_________

"PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:us35QehpIHA.5096@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

| Request: Since Windows Live Mail is not supported in Win9x, please

| discontinue the pointless crossposting of further replies to

| microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion and

| microsoft.public.win98.internet.outlookexpress newsgroups.

|

| Thanks.

| --

| ~PA Bear

|

| MEB wrote:

| > "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

| > <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

| > message news:93EC9EE3-E733-41FA-A530-FFD34C255AF1@microsoft.com...

| >> HI MEB,

| >

| > Heeey Scott, perhaps I should mention the name is Maurice so at least we

| > are on an even keel, so to speak.

| > MEB is *M*aurice *E*dward, *B*rahier

|

April 24, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

1. Ignore the Read/Unread marking: Make sure all messages in all

Hotmail-in-OE folders have been opened (i.e., message contents have been

downloaded).

2. Move, drag, or Copy all messages to local OE folders you've created for

this purpose.

--

~PA Bear

MEB wrote:

> Well perhaps that would be a good idea, however, having just attempted the

> move of the saved messages to the INBOX of the web account, and attempted

> to

> retrieve them via the linked DAV account [the first 25 messages of a few

> hundred], I find they are NOT transferred, even AFTER marking them as NOT

> READ. Therefore there may still be a decided interest in this discussion

> pursuant the 98 groups, at least until some resolution to the issue is

> proved..

>

> --

>

> "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

> news:us35QehpIHA.5096@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>> Request: Since Windows Live Mail is not supported in Win9x, please

>> discontinue the pointless crossposting of further replies to

>> microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion and

>> microsoft.public.win98.internet.outlookexpress newsgroups.

>>

>> Thanks.

>> --

>> ~PA Bear

>>

>> MEB wrote:

>>> "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

>>> <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

>>> message news:93EC9EE3-E733-41FA-A530-FFD34C255AF1@microsoft.com...

>>>> HI MEB,

>>>

>>> Heeey Scott, perhaps I should mention the name is Maurice so at least we

>>> are on an even keel, so to speak.

>>> MEB is *M*aurice *E*dward, *B*rahier

April 24, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

Impossible to do, the accounts are not synchronized...

Pa, you should from experience, understand what mode I'm presently in,

beware.

In present form, Microsoft/Live stands in undue effect pursuant a

previously PUBLICLY offered, and CROSS PLATFORM available service

[accessible via other clients/applications], which will soon be inaccessible

to this CLASS of users.... I appreciate you may not understand the issue,

but I would suggest you stand aside until this is resolved.

--

--

_________

"PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:Om8aOtjpIHA.2256@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

| 1. Ignore the Read/Unread marking: Make sure all messages in all

| Hotmail-in-OE folders have been opened (i.e., message contents have been

| downloaded).

|

| 2. Move, drag, or Copy all messages to local OE folders you've created for

| this purpose.

| --

| ~PA Bear

|

| MEB wrote:

| > Well perhaps that would be a good idea, however, having just attempted

the

| > move of the saved messages to the INBOX of the web account, and

attempted

| > to

| > retrieve them via the linked DAV account [the first 25 messages of a few

| > hundred], I find they are NOT transferred, even AFTER marking them as

NOT

| > READ. Therefore there may still be a decided interest in this discussion

| > pursuant the 98 groups, at least until some resolution to the issue is

| > proved..

| >

| > --

(http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/5fedf03e884d8b22)

| >

| > "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

| > news:us35QehpIHA.5096@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

| >> Request: Since Windows Live Mail is not supported in Win9x, please

| >> discontinue the pointless crossposting of further replies to

| >> microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion and

| >> microsoft.public.win98.internet.outlookexpress newsgroups.

| >>

| >> Thanks.

| >> --

| >> ~PA Bear

| >>

| >> MEB wrote:

| >>> "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

| >>> <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote

in

| >>> message news:93EC9EE3-E733-41FA-A530-FFD34C255AF1@microsoft.com...

| >>>> HI MEB,

| >>>

| >>> Heeey Scott, perhaps I should mention the name is Maurice so at least

we

| >>> are on an even keel, so to speak.

| >>> MEB is *M*aurice *E*dward, *B*rahier

|

April 25, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

> Impossible to do, the accounts are not synchronized...

Sorry to hear that. FWIW, I still have messages in my Hotmail-in-OE folders

available from October 2002. Perhaps the back-up and long-term storage

information Scott described in his most recent reply

is at play in your case.

> Pa, you should from experience, understand what mode I'm presently in,

> beware.

From what experience? Beware of what? Is that a threat?

> In present form, Microsoft/Live stands in undue effect pursuant a

> previously PUBLICLY offered, and CROSS PLATFORM available service

> [accessible via other clients/applications], which will soon be

> inaccessible

> to this CLASS of users.... I appreciate you may not understand the issue,

> but I would suggest you stand aside until this is resolved.

Uh-oh, lawyerspeak! Should we be scared? These are public newsgroups,

Maurice: Anyone can reply to this thread. If I feel I have information

about OE that's related to your posts/problems, I'll post a reply if I care

to do so.

If you need official support from MSN/Hotmail, these newsgroups are the

wrong venue:

<QP>

Microsoft does not offer formal support for the communities you'll find

here. Instead, our role is to provide a platform for people who want to take

advantage of the global community of Microsoft customers and product

experts...

</QP>

Source: http://www.microsoft.com/communities/conduct/default.mspx

Free access to Hotmail accounts in OE has always been "provided as a beta

service" without any support from MSN/Hotmail or Microsoft whatsoever.

FYI:

Microsoft Service Agreement

http://help.live.com/help.aspx?project=tou&mkt=en-us

--

~PA Bear

MEB wrote:

> Impossible to do, the accounts are not synchronized...

>

> Pa, you should from experience, understand what mode I'm presently in,

> beware.

>

> In present form, Microsoft/Live stands in undue effect pursuant a

> previously PUBLICLY offered, and CROSS PLATFORM available service

> [accessible via other clients/applications], which will soon be

> inaccessible

> to this CLASS of users.... I appreciate you may not understand the issue,

> but I would suggest you stand aside until this is resolved.

>

> --

>

> "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

> news:Om8aOtjpIHA.2256@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>> 1. Ignore the Read/Unread marking: Make sure all messages in all

>> Hotmail-in-OE folders have been opened (i.e., message contents have been

>> downloaded).

>>

>> 2. Move, drag, or Copy all messages to local OE folders you've created

>> for

>> this purpose.

>> --

>> ~PA Bear

>>

>> MEB wrote:

>>> Well perhaps that would be a good idea, however, having just attempted

>>> the

>>> move of the saved messages to the INBOX of the web account, and

>>> attempted

>>> to

>>> retrieve them via the linked DAV account [the first 25 messages of a few

>>> hundred], I find they are NOT transferred, even AFTER marking them as

>>> NOT

>>> READ. Therefore there may still be a decided interest in this discussion

>>> pursuant the 98 groups, at least until some resolution to the issue is

>>> proved..

>>>

>>> --

>>> MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

>>>

>>> "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>> news:us35QehpIHA.5096@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>>> Request: Since Windows Live Mail is not supported in Win9x, please

>>>> discontinue the pointless crossposting of further replies to

>>>> microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion and

>>>> microsoft.public.win98.internet.outlookexpress newsgroups.

>>>>

>>>> Thanks.

>>>> --

>>>> ~PA Bear

>>>>

>>>> MEB wrote:

>>>>> "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

>>>>> <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote

>>>>> in

>>>>> message news:93EC9EE3-E733-41FA-A530-FFD34C255AF1@microsoft.com...

>>>>>> HI MEB,

>>>>>

>>>>> Heeey Scott, perhaps I should mention the name is Maurice so at least

>>>>> we

>>>>> are on an even keel, so to speak.

>>>>> MEB is *M*aurice *E*dward, *B*rahier

April 25, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

As I suggested, perhaps its best to allow Microsoft's paid employees answer

or respond.

--

(http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/5f

--

_________

"PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:uoXHQSnpIHA.2064@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

| > Impossible to do, the accounts are not synchronized...

|

| Sorry to hear that. FWIW, I still have messages in my Hotmail-in-OE

folders

| available from October 2002. Perhaps the back-up and long-term storage

| information Scott described in his most recent reply

|

edf03e884d8b22)

| is at play in your case.

|

| > Pa, you should from experience, understand what mode I'm presently in,

| > beware.

|

| From what experience? Beware of what? Is that a threat?

|

| > In present form, Microsoft/Live stands in undue effect pursuant a

| > previously PUBLICLY offered, and CROSS PLATFORM available service

| > [accessible via other clients/applications], which will soon be

| > inaccessible

| > to this CLASS of users.... I appreciate you may not understand the

issue,

| > but I would suggest you stand aside until this is resolved.

|

| Uh-oh, lawyerspeak! Should we be scared? These are public newsgroups,

| Maurice: Anyone can reply to this thread. If I feel I have information

| about OE that's related to your posts/problems, I'll post a reply if I

care

| to do so.

|

| If you need official support from MSN/Hotmail, these newsgroups are the

| wrong venue:

|

| <QP>

| Microsoft does not offer formal support for the communities you'll find

| here. Instead, our role is to provide a platform for people who want to

take

| advantage of the global community of Microsoft customers and product

| experts...

| </QP>

| Source: http://www.microsoft.com/communities/conduct/default.mspx

|

| Free access to Hotmail accounts in OE has always been "provided as a beta

| service" without any support from MSN/Hotmail or Microsoft whatsoever.

|

| FYI:

|

| Microsoft Service Agreement

| http://help.live.com/help.aspx?project=tou&mkt=en-us

| --

| ~PA Bear

|

| MEB wrote:

| > Impossible to do, the accounts are not synchronized...

| >

| > Pa, you should from experience, understand what mode I'm presently in,

| > beware.

| >

| > In present form, Microsoft/Live stands in undue effect pursuant a

| > previously PUBLICLY offered, and CROSS PLATFORM available service

| > [accessible via other clients/applications], which will soon be

| > inaccessible

| > to this CLASS of users.... I appreciate you may not understand the

issue,

| > but I would suggest you stand aside until this is resolved.

| >

| > --

https://support.live.com/default.aspx?productkey=wlmail

| >

| > "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

| > news:Om8aOtjpIHA.2256@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

| >> 1. Ignore the Read/Unread marking: Make sure all messages in all

| >> Hotmail-in-OE folders have been opened (i.e., message contents have

been

| >> downloaded).

| >>

| >> 2. Move, drag, or Copy all messages to local OE folders you've created

| >> for

| >> this purpose.

| >> --

| >> ~PA Bear

| >>

| >> MEB wrote:

| >>> Well perhaps that would be a good idea, however, having just attempted

| >>> the

| >>> move of the saved messages to the INBOX of the web account, and

| >>> attempted

| >>> to

| >>> retrieve them via the linked DAV account [the first 25 messages of a

few

| >>> hundred], I find they are NOT transferred, even AFTER marking them as

| >>> NOT

| >>> READ. Therefore there may still be a decided interest in this

discussion

| >>> pursuant the 98 groups, at least until some resolution to the issue is

| >>> proved..

| >>>

| >>> --

| >>> MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

| >>>

| >>> "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

| >>> news:us35QehpIHA.5096@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

| >>>> Request: Since Windows Live Mail is not supported in Win9x, please

| >>>> discontinue the pointless crossposting of further replies to

| >>>> microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion and

| >>>> microsoft.public.win98.internet.outlookexpress newsgroups.

| >>>>

| >>>> Thanks.

| >>>> --

| >>>> ~PA Bear

| >>>>

| >>>> MEB wrote:

| >>>>> "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

| >>>>> <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote

| >>>>> in

| >>>>> message news:93EC9EE3-E733-41FA-A530-FFD34C255AF1@microsoft.com...

| >>>>>> HI MEB,

| >>>>>

| >>>>> Heeey Scott, perhaps I should mention the name is Maurice so at

least

| >>>>> we

| >>>>> are on an even keel, so to speak.

| >>>>> MEB is *M*aurice *E*dward, *B*rahier

|

April 25, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

PS: Is the "missing" Hotmail-in-OE data available at the webmail page for

the account(s)?

(Contact) Windows Live Hotmail Support

--

~PA Bear

PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:

>> Impossible to do, the accounts are not synchronized...

>

> Sorry to hear that. FWIW, I still have messages in my Hotmail-in-OE

> folders

> available from October 2002. Perhaps the back-up and long-term storage

> information Scott described in his most recent reply

> (http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/5fedf03e884d8b22)

> is at play in your case.

>

>> Pa, you should from experience, understand what mode I'm presently in,

>> beware.

>

> From what experience? Beware of what? Is that a threat?

>

>> In present form, Microsoft/Live stands in undue effect pursuant a

>> previously PUBLICLY offered, and CROSS PLATFORM available service

>> [accessible via other clients/applications], which will soon be

>> inaccessible

>> to this CLASS of users.... I appreciate you may not understand the issue,

>> but I would suggest you stand aside until this is resolved.

>

> Uh-oh, lawyerspeak! Should we be scared? These are public newsgroups,

> Maurice: Anyone can reply to this thread. If I feel I have information

> about OE that's related to your posts/problems, I'll post a reply if I

> care

> to do so.

>

> If you need official support from MSN/Hotmail, these newsgroups are the

> wrong venue:

>

> <QP>

> Microsoft does not offer formal support for the communities you'll find

> here. Instead, our role is to provide a platform for people who want to

> take

> advantage of the global community of Microsoft customers and product

> experts...

> </QP>

> Source: http://www.microsoft.com/communities/conduct/default.mspx

>

> Free access to Hotmail accounts in OE has always been "provided as a beta

> service" without any support from MSN/Hotmail or Microsoft whatsoever.

>

> FYI:

>

> Microsoft Service Agreement

> http://help.live.com/help.aspx?project=tou&mkt=en-us

>

> MEB wrote:

>> Impossible to do, the accounts are not synchronized...

>>

>> Pa, you should from experience, understand what mode I'm presently in,

>> beware.

>>

>> In present form, Microsoft/Live stands in undue effect pursuant a

>> previously PUBLICLY offered, and CROSS PLATFORM available service

>> [accessible via other clients/applications], which will soon be

>> inaccessible

>> to this CLASS of users.... I appreciate you may not understand the issue,

>> but I would suggest you stand aside until this is resolved.

>>

>> --

>> MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

>>

>> "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:Om8aOtjpIHA.2256@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>> 1. Ignore the Read/Unread marking: Make sure all messages in all

>>> Hotmail-in-OE folders have been opened (i.e., message contents have been

>>> downloaded).

>>>

>>> 2. Move, drag, or Copy all messages to local OE folders you've created

>>> for

>>> this purpose.

>>> --

>>> ~PA Bear

>>>

>>> MEB wrote:

>>>> Well perhaps that would be a good idea, however, having just attempted

>>>> the

>>>> move of the saved messages to the INBOX of the web account, and

>>>> attempted

>>>> to

>>>> retrieve them via the linked DAV account [the first 25 messages of a

>>>> few

>>>> hundred], I find they are NOT transferred, even AFTER marking them as

>>>> NOT

>>>> READ. Therefore there may still be a decided interest in this

>>>> discussion

>>>> pursuant the 98 groups, at least until some resolution to the issue is

>>>> proved..

>>>>

>>>> --

>>>> MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com

>>>>

>>>> "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>>> news:us35QehpIHA.5096@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>>>> Request: Since Windows Live Mail is not supported in Win9x, please

>>>>> discontinue the pointless crossposting of further replies to

>>>>> microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion and

>>>>> microsoft.public.win98.internet.outlookexpress newsgroups.

>>>>>

>>>>> Thanks.

>>>>> --

>>>>> ~PA Bear

>>>>>

>>>>> MEB wrote:

>>>>>> "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"

>>>>>> <WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote

>>>>>> in

>>>>>> message news:93EC9EE3-E733-41FA-A530-FFD34C255AF1@microsoft.com...

>>>>>>> HI MEB,

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Heeey Scott, perhaps I should mention the name is Maurice so at least

>>>>>> we

>>>>>> are on an even keel, so to speak.

>>>>>> MEB is *M*aurice *E*dward, *B*rahier

April 26, 2008

Re: Windows Live - no more Outlook Express

"PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:uF0BrutpIHA.4848@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

| PS: Is the "missing" Hotmail-in-OE data available at the webmail page for

| the account(s)?

|

| (Contact) Windows Live Hotmail Support

| https://support.live.com/default.aspx?productkey=wlmail

| --

| ~PA Bear

|

| PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:

| >> Impossible to do, the accounts are not synchronized...

| >

| > Sorry to hear that. FWIW, I still have messages in my Hotmail-in-OE

| > folders

| > available from October 2002. Perhaps the back-up and long-term storage

| > information Scott described in his most recent reply

| >

(http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion/msg/5f

edf03e884d8b22)

| > is at play in your case.

Okay, this is a somewhat more sensible post. While waiting for a response

here and/or via Live Support:

---

I addressed [prior to reading your post] the issue of retrieval/access

through/to Live, I will inform this discussion of the correspondence and/or

outcome.

-------

Yes, as Scott presented [and I indicated], the mail IS saved upon the web

based account [since 2004/5], it is NOT transfered when placed back into the

INBOX so it can be retreived WITHOUT causing the need to access the

individual messages/saved materials *using the web access*, and then

forwarding them, individually, elsewhere.. It is NOT an issue of deleted or

removed mail, it is an issue of means and method of removal/transfer.

The error is, Microsoft/Live has been [as have most rulings related to this

type of activity] repeatedly advise in various cases [and via other general

business related rulings], that should changes be made which may unduely

effect the users abilitiy to access their accounts and/or services, and or

which otherwise affect usage, measures must be taken to ensure those

clients/customers are properly noticed of this fact; and must be supplied

with methods and means to first remove and/or change their service PRIOR to

the service's/usage change.

The private user's rights generally outwiegh the corporation's when

confronting the property of the user. Users/consumers have a reasonable

expectation that the service will continue AND that if changes are made,

they have been specifically informed that it will affect their usage and how

it will affect that usage, save in special circumstances {bankruptcy,

seizure, other extenuating circumstances]

The questions/responses to Scott, were civilly presented questions noting

the key features, reminding him [a party WITH direct contact and in

Microsoft's employ, and specifically as Sr. Support Program Manager, Windows

Live Mail Technologies] of those [and other] issues.

IF Microsoft makes this proprietary change WITHOUT supplying proper Notice

with disclosure, and the method and means, then the class is instantly

created, including ALL users of the service {MSN/Hotmail/Live} using ANY OS,

EMail client, or other, who may be and/or will be precluded from accessing

their accounts in the manner to which they are presently accustomed.

IF Microsoft has supplied third parties with the code so it can be used

*cross-platform*, hence NOT requiring the {only} two supported OSs AND

client, then the affected parties may have their accustomed usage. If not,

then the *public* service has become a *private* service, and the present

users have been unduly affected.

= Now here's a an overly simplified thoretical present in the spirit of the

discussion. It does, however supply the manner in which to address this

purported Hotmail/Live change:

Think of it like this [using money, since most would be able to understand

this, or just think of it as personal property -

pictures/mail/documents/business correspondence/etc; each has "value" under

its defining Laws, and Hotmail and Live IS/WAS a publicly offered service]:

You use a bank who; until a certain point, had been using SSL as its method

of access for online banking. You, in good faith, created the account, used

the service, stored your money, and otherwise used this service [direct

deposit, direct payment, direction to the service for credit, etc.] .

You are informed by this banking service that a change will be made in the

access, to a new proprietary protocol and client application. The

Notification indicates there will be no noticeable change in service; that

one merely needs to allow and/or install this new client/protocol. You find

out, however, that to install this client/protocol so you may continue to

use the service in the method and manner in which and via which you have

used,; it can only be installed [with support] into two OSs, XP SP2 and

Vista. You do not have those OSs; they were NOT required when the account

was created. You were also previously able to use other methods/clients to

access the account.

You {having researched the impact} attempt to remove your money from the

account, but find out that the means were NOT provided for you to do so

EXCEPT via small increments, so you can not close the account without

incurring substantial hardship, investing substantial time, and other.

Other users of the service also find out, after the change, [having

mistakenly relied upon the notification that it would make no noticeable

impact] their access has been destroyed in the form to which they are

accustomed. They believe they were not adequately informed prior to the

loss; and also find that their personal property has been made essentially

inaccessible EXCEPT via the service's online web page OR by using the OSs,

proprietary protocol and client, which removes their ability to make an

informed choice of their own. The service is also directly related to and

REQUIRES the use of those specific OSs AND client, which they may or may not

be able to install or use, or do not wish to use.

It would be within the bank/service's defense, to present its agreements

which state it has authority to change the service at its discretion and

that it made no guarantees, and that the users had agreed to those terms and

other, prior to account creation.

It would be within the {millions of users} class action, to point out that

they were not properly Notified of the full ramifications; were not afforded

proper means and method to retrieve their property; and have essentially

lost access to substantial personal property due to this activity, causing

extreme harm and damage. They would be able to point to the Notification,

which appears to indicate there would be no noticeable impact upon the

accounts. They would be able to point to the "direct" relationship between

the service and the now required OSs, and client with its private

proprietary protocol. They would present that they were not required, upon

account creation, to use these specific OSs and proprietary client/protocol.

They would produce evidence that prior changes [also presented by the

service as not effecting access] did NOT affect their access, until the

change to the proprietary protocol/client which created the issue, to the

detriment of the class.

Who would be at fault? Is it you and/or the class for using the service and

supposedly signing away your rights, or the service for failing to

adequately and fully inform you of the impact of the change, and for failing

to provide the means and method to retrieve your property should you wish to

discontinue the service or otherwise protect your property prior to or after

the change?

Would this be deemed merely an inconvenience or having caused harm and

damage, by the jury, in your opinion?

Prosecution against Microsoft/Live

A state's and/or federal prosecution could easily point to the apparent

violations of the Sherman Act [anti-trust/monopoly - see prior related

rulings], prior rulings and agreements concerning Microsoft, and other

statutes/commercial Law/consumer protection Laws/other which this change

would appear to violate and/or be found in fault. It would also be easy to

point to repeated/repeat violations. Requiring a specific set of OSs and the

proprietary client/protocol for a once public offered service which did not

previously require such, creates a direct avenue for attack.

Other nations courts and prosecutors, and other nation's peoples would

also have the authority to address these issues in the form and manner which

are addressable there [its a world-wide offered service]. Any claim that a

service shall be considered under the Laws of {wherever} can be addressed

first for International application and jurisdiction which might be found

[treaties, commercial agreements, nation's authority, etc.]

Microsoft is well aware of this international [and US] application, as it

has been done/used repeatedly, both by Microsoft and against Microsoft, here

and abroad.

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