Guest spamlet Posted June 18, 2008 Posted June 18, 2008 This may sound like a pretty basic question, but I've hung on to various threads around the topic for a while, but still have a few points to clear up. Have XPPro on a nearly full 40gig internal drive, and recently bought 2 MyBook 500gig externals. Despite reading around, I still got a surprise to find there was only a usb port on the back of the drives, so I won't be plugging one in to my router after all... so I want to minimise the chances of any further c ' ups. The way I see it, the sensible thing to do would be to divide the new drives into sections (drives? partitions?): a section, maybe the same size as the original drive, to clone the operating system and programme files to; and a main section for transferring and backing up all the personal data files. I have never done any work on drives/partitions before, so I am not sure exactly how to proceed. I am also unsure as to whether I can boot from any clone I might put on the external drive - obviously I would like to be able to do this; and whether there will be a problem cloning from a smaller drive to a larger one (One source I read mentioned a clone programme treating the larger drive as if it was still only the same size as the original.) I know these are questions that ideally I should have asked before buying the new drives, but until one actually tries to use them, the questions don't occur to the inexperienced! Also, are there any suitable free cloning programmes I should consider; and/or should I nowadays be looking at Ghost, or Acronis? Any advice or links pointing to a step by step process for achieving the above aims, would be much appreciated. Regards, S
Guest Big_Al Posted June 18, 2008 Posted June 18, 2008 Re: Backup strategy to hard drive bigger than original spamlet wrote: > This may sound like a pretty basic question, but I've hung on to various > threads around the topic for a while, but still have a few points to clear > up. > > Have XPPro on a nearly full 40gig internal drive, and recently bought 2 > MyBook 500gig externals. > Despite reading around, I still got a surprise to find there was only a usb > port on the back of the drives, so I won't be plugging one in to my router > after all... so I want to minimise the chances of any further c ' ups. > > The way I see it, the sensible thing to do would be to divide the new drives > into sections (drives? partitions?): a section, maybe the same size as the > original drive, to clone the operating system and programme files to; and a > main section for transferring and backing up all the personal data files. I > have never done any work on drives/partitions before, so I am not sure > exactly how to proceed. > You don't need to partition anything. A good program like Acronis True Image Home will write an *image* of your 40 gig drive to the USB drive. You can store several copies on that same large drive. If you clone over and over and over, you only have the last backup. And in reality, if you get a virus, and then clone before you know it, you now got a clone on the only copy of your backup. So multiple images is a more practical backup. You can boot off the restore CD and pick which image you want, and you can even pick files within the image. You don't have to restore the entire drive. > I am also unsure as to whether I can boot from any clone I might put on the > external drive - obviously I would like to be able to do this; and whether > there will be a problem cloning from a smaller drive to a larger one (One > source I read mentioned a clone programme treating the larger drive as if it > was still only the same size as the original.) > Acronis will allow you to clone from a small to a large drive. That's one of its features, to allow you to install a new drive and upgrade. But it will be hard if not impossible to boot from the external drive. Another problem is that cloning is meant for drive replacement. And normally the directions are to remove the cloned (USB) drive after doing the clone operation. If you make the boot disc and boot off of it, you make the clone and then immediately shutdown and swap drives. The new drive, lets say the 500 gig is in your cabinet, now boots and changes the drive letter to C: as it should be and not the D: or E: or whatever it was. This is the intent of the clone operation. > I know these are questions that ideally I should have asked before buying > the new drives, but until one actually tries to use them, the questions > don't occur to the inexperienced! > > Also, are there any suitable free cloning programmes I should consider; > and/or should I nowadays be looking at Ghost, or Acronis? > > Any advice or links pointing to a step by step process for achieving the > above aims, would be much appreciated. > > Regards, > > S > Hope this helps.
Guest spamlet Posted June 18, 2008 Posted June 18, 2008 Re: Backup strategy to hard drive bigger than original "Big_Al" <BigAl@md.com> wrote in message news:%23s3zTnX0IHA.4004@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > spamlet wrote: >> This may sound like a pretty basic question, but I've hung on to various >> threads around the topic for a while, but still have a few points to >> clear up. >> >> Have XPPro on a nearly full 40gig internal drive, and recently bought 2 >> MyBook 500gig externals. >> Despite reading around, I still got a surprise to find there was only a >> usb port on the back of the drives, so I won't be plugging one in to my >> router after all... so I want to minimise the chances of any further c ' >> ups. >> >> The way I see it, the sensible thing to do would be to divide the new >> drives into sections (drives? partitions?): a section, maybe the same >> size as the original drive, to clone the operating system and programme >> files to; and a main section for transferring and backing up all the >> personal data files. I have never done any work on drives/partitions >> before, so I am not sure exactly how to proceed. >> > You don't need to partition anything. A good program like Acronis True > Image Home will write an *image* of your 40 gig drive to the USB drive. > You can store several copies on that same large drive. > If you clone over and over and over, you only have the last backup. And in > reality, if you get a virus, and then clone before you know it, you now > got a clone on the only copy of your backup. So multiple images is a > more practical backup. > You can boot off the restore CD and pick which image you want, and you can > even pick files within the image. You don't have to restore the entire > drive. > >> I am also unsure as to whether I can boot from any clone I might put on >> the external drive - obviously I would like to be able to do this; and >> whether there will be a problem cloning from a smaller drive to a larger >> one (One source I read mentioned a clone programme treating the larger >> drive as if it was still only the same size as the original.) >> > Acronis will allow you to clone from a small to a large drive. That's one > of its features, to allow you to install a new drive and upgrade. > But it will be hard if not impossible to boot from the external drive. > Another problem is that cloning is meant for drive replacement. And > normally the directions are to remove the cloned (USB) drive after doing > the clone operation. > If you make the boot disc and boot off of it, you make the clone and then > immediately shutdown and swap drives. The new drive, lets say the 500 > gig is in your cabinet, now boots and changes the drive letter to C: as it > should be and not the D: or E: or whatever it was. This is the intent of > the clone operation. > > >> I know these are questions that ideally I should have asked before buying >> the new drives, but until one actually tries to use them, the questions >> don't occur to the inexperienced! >> >> Also, are there any suitable free cloning programmes I should consider; >> and/or should I nowadays be looking at Ghost, or Acronis? >> >> Any advice or links pointing to a step by step process for achieving the >> above aims, would be much appreciated. >> >> Regards, >> >> S >> > Hope this helps. Thanks Al, Still a bit puzzling though: the 'clone' appears to be a very large' image' folder that is used to write everything onto a replacement drive, should the original become unusable. Yet you say that one can choose which files are restored? This sounds like a contradiction? Should, say, just one programme become corrupted in some way, how would one pick out all its various components and get them back and working in the right places? Or does one use the clone like a giant 'System Restore' point, where, as soon as anything starts playing up, one reverts to an image of the whole system that previously worked, without any reference to the individual programmes? With the possible difference, that one might have to reformat the whole drive before installing the full system clone? As the system and programme files are less likely to change, fundamentally, than the personal data files, I would have thought that the 'clone' ought to be just these files, while the data files were backed up with a normal back up programme. You say I must remove the usb drive after doing any clone operation, yet I can have multiple clone images on that drive? Doesn't that imply that I must have 'two drives' on my new 500gig, so that one can be 'removed' while my other 'non image' stored files, remain available? Sorry to appear so dumb... Assistance much appreciated, Thanks, S
Guest peter Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Re: Backup strategy to hard drive bigger than original Your getting confused with Cloning and Imaging. A clone of the drive is an exact bootable copy/clone of the original Its intent is to "tranfer" all of your old drive to a new larger drive.... An Image of the drive is a exact non-bootable copy/image....A compressed file is created with this image and can be accessed by Acronis True Image program to restore either the whole Image or individual files inside the image. Acronis prompts you to create an emergency start up CD/DVD by means of which you can start your system without running XP and restore the Image or Files within the Image. I use imaging as a backup procedure..I basically have 2 partitions on an external HD and rotate Image creations.. peter -- DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... ;-) "spamlet" <spam.morespam@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:eizgQjY0IHA.5564@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... > > "Big_Al" <BigAl@md.com> wrote in message > news:%23s3zTnX0IHA.4004@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... >> spamlet wrote: >>> This may sound like a pretty basic question, but I've hung on to various >>> threads around the topic for a while, but still have a few points to >>> clear up. >>> >>> Have XPPro on a nearly full 40gig internal drive, and recently bought 2 >>> MyBook 500gig externals. >>> Despite reading around, I still got a surprise to find there was only a >>> usb port on the back of the drives, so I won't be plugging one in to my >>> router after all... so I want to minimise the chances of any further c >>> ' ups. >>> >>> The way I see it, the sensible thing to do would be to divide the new >>> drives into sections (drives? partitions?): a section, maybe the same >>> size as the original drive, to clone the operating system and programme >>> files to; and a main section for transferring and backing up all the >>> personal data files. I have never done any work on drives/partitions >>> before, so I am not sure exactly how to proceed. >>> >> You don't need to partition anything. A good program like Acronis True >> Image Home will write an *image* of your 40 gig drive to the USB drive. >> You can store several copies on that same large drive. >> If you clone over and over and over, you only have the last backup. And >> in reality, if you get a virus, and then clone before you know it, you >> now got a clone on the only copy of your backup. So multiple images is >> a more practical backup. >> You can boot off the restore CD and pick which image you want, and you >> can even pick files within the image. You don't have to restore the >> entire drive. >> >>> I am also unsure as to whether I can boot from any clone I might put on >>> the external drive - obviously I would like to be able to do this; and >>> whether there will be a problem cloning from a smaller drive to a larger >>> one (One source I read mentioned a clone programme treating the larger >>> drive as if it was still only the same size as the original.) >>> >> Acronis will allow you to clone from a small to a large drive. That's >> one of its features, to allow you to install a new drive and upgrade. >> But it will be hard if not impossible to boot from the external drive. >> Another problem is that cloning is meant for drive replacement. And >> normally the directions are to remove the cloned (USB) drive after doing >> the clone operation. >> If you make the boot disc and boot off of it, you make the clone and then >> immediately shutdown and swap drives. The new drive, lets say the 500 >> gig is in your cabinet, now boots and changes the drive letter to C: as >> it should be and not the D: or E: or whatever it was. This is the >> intent of the clone operation. >> >> >>> I know these are questions that ideally I should have asked before >>> buying the new drives, but until one actually tries to use them, the >>> questions don't occur to the inexperienced! >>> >>> Also, are there any suitable free cloning programmes I should consider; >>> and/or should I nowadays be looking at Ghost, or Acronis? >>> >>> Any advice or links pointing to a step by step process for achieving the >>> above aims, would be much appreciated. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> S >>> >> Hope this helps. > > Thanks Al, > > Still a bit puzzling though: the 'clone' appears to be a very large' > image' folder that is used to write everything onto a replacement drive, > should the original become unusable. Yet you say that one can choose > which files are restored? This sounds like a contradiction? > > Should, say, just one programme become corrupted in some way, how would > one pick out all its various components and get them back and working in > the right places? Or does one use the clone like a giant 'System > Restore' point, where, as soon as anything starts playing up, one reverts > to an image of the whole system that previously worked, without any > reference to the individual programmes? With the possible difference, > that one might have to reformat the whole drive before installing the full > system clone? > > As the system and programme files are less likely to change, > fundamentally, than the personal data files, I would have thought that the > 'clone' ought to be just these files, while the data files were backed up > with a normal back up programme. > > You say I must remove the usb drive after doing any clone operation, yet I > can have multiple clone images on that drive? Doesn't that imply that I > must have 'two drives' on my new 500gig, so that one can be 'removed' > while my other 'non image' stored files, remain available? > > Sorry to appear so dumb... > > Assistance much appreciated, > Thanks, > S >
Guest Big_Al Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Re: Backup strategy to hard drive bigger than original spamlet wrote: > "Big_Al" <BigAl@md.com> wrote in message > news:%23s3zTnX0IHA.4004@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... >> spamlet wrote: >>> This may sound like a pretty basic question, but I've hung on to various >>> threads around the topic for a while, but still have a few points to >>> clear up. >>> >>> Have XPPro on a nearly full 40gig internal drive, and recently bought 2 >>> MyBook 500gig externals. >>> Despite reading around, I still got a surprise to find there was only a >>> usb port on the back of the drives, so I won't be plugging one in to my >>> router after all... so I want to minimise the chances of any further c ' >>> ups. >>> >>> The way I see it, the sensible thing to do would be to divide the new >>> drives into sections (drives? partitions?): a section, maybe the same >>> size as the original drive, to clone the operating system and programme >>> files to; and a main section for transferring and backing up all the >>> personal data files. I have never done any work on drives/partitions >>> before, so I am not sure exactly how to proceed. >>> >> You don't need to partition anything. A good program like Acronis True >> Image Home will write an *image* of your 40 gig drive to the USB drive. >> You can store several copies on that same large drive. >> If you clone over and over and over, you only have the last backup. And in >> reality, if you get a virus, and then clone before you know it, you now >> got a clone on the only copy of your backup. So multiple images is a >> more practical backup. >> You can boot off the restore CD and pick which image you want, and you can >> even pick files within the image. You don't have to restore the entire >> drive. >> >>> I am also unsure as to whether I can boot from any clone I might put on >>> the external drive - obviously I would like to be able to do this; and >>> whether there will be a problem cloning from a smaller drive to a larger >>> one (One source I read mentioned a clone programme treating the larger >>> drive as if it was still only the same size as the original.) >>> >> Acronis will allow you to clone from a small to a large drive. That's one >> of its features, to allow you to install a new drive and upgrade. >> But it will be hard if not impossible to boot from the external drive. >> Another problem is that cloning is meant for drive replacement. And >> normally the directions are to remove the cloned (USB) drive after doing >> the clone operation. >> If you make the boot disc and boot off of it, you make the clone and then >> immediately shutdown and swap drives. The new drive, lets say the 500 >> gig is in your cabinet, now boots and changes the drive letter to C: as it >> should be and not the D: or E: or whatever it was. This is the intent of >> the clone operation. >> >> >>> I know these are questions that ideally I should have asked before buying >>> the new drives, but until one actually tries to use them, the questions >>> don't occur to the inexperienced! >>> >>> Also, are there any suitable free cloning programmes I should consider; >>> and/or should I nowadays be looking at Ghost, or Acronis? >>> >>> Any advice or links pointing to a step by step process for achieving the >>> above aims, would be much appreciated. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> S >>> >> Hope this helps. > > Thanks Al, > > Still a bit puzzling though: the 'clone' appears to be a very large' image' > folder that is used to write everything onto a replacement drive, should the > original become unusable. Yet you say that one can choose which files are > restored? This sounds like a contradiction? > I may have typed wrong. Peter gave a good response. A clone is a complete bootable copy made to another drive, the complete partition is duped. An image is a complete copy but its just a compressed file and you can restore individual files from it. However if you restore it as a complete, you can make the destination bootable. So its almost the same. > Should, say, just one programme become corrupted in some way, how would one > pick out all its various components and get them back and working in the > right places? Or does one use the clone like a giant 'System Restore' > point, where, as soon as anything starts playing up, one reverts to an image > of the whole system that previously worked, without any reference to the > individual programmes? With the possible difference, that one might have to > reformat the whole drive before installing the full system clone? > If you had a problem with Office, having a backup would do you little good unless you specifically knew that file xxx.dll was bad or such. Otherwise yes, you could just restore the entire image and like you said, make a giant system restore. And TI will format and/or partition before restoring an entire image if you wish. When I reloaded my PC with SP3, I did all the loading and setup and custom config etc, then imaged the PC. Now I have the very very very first virgin load to use. I also have more recent images if I want. And daily minor file backups. > As the system and programme files are less likely to change, fundamentally, > than the personal data files, I would have thought that the 'clone' ought to > be just these files, while the data files were backed up with a normal back > up programme. You cannot pick with a clone. A clone is the entire partition. > And as some people suggest, you can make two partitions C: for the OS and D: for the data. As long as you understand an install of a program on D: effects changes to the OS on C: and you have to manage it like so, yes you can do that. > You say I must remove the usb drive after doing any clone operation, yet I > can have multiple clone images on that drive? Doesn't that imply that I > must have 'two drives' on my new 500gig, so that one can be 'removed' while > my other 'non image' stored files, remain available? > You can have multiple images on a drive. But a clone wipes an entire partition. Peter commented that he makes multiple partitions and rotates his clones. Doing one on partition #1 then one #2 then back to #1 (if I got his quote right). I just put several images on the same drive partition. And (assume you have single partitioned drives) TI's procedure for a clone would be to clone your C: drive to lets say E: drive in a USB cabinet. When you finish, you turn everything off, remove the C: drive, put the E: drive in the PC and boot. TI has a small loader that changes the E: to C: for the obvious reasons and then boots. You now have your system running but on another drive. When you did the clone, you had the option to size the partition on E: by the way, so you can move from small to a larger partition. > Sorry to appear so dumb... > > Assistance much appreciated, > Thanks, > S > > TI can actually be used like a partition manager. A bit awkward but if you had a C:/D: drive split, you could image the two of them (in one operation) to the USB, then restore them back but partition the C:/D: different. A bit awkward but it can be done.
Guest spamlet Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Re: Backup strategy to hard drive bigger than original "Big_Al" <BigAl@md.com> wrote in message news:eSPDTxa0IHA.416@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > spamlet wrote: >> "Big_Al" <BigAl@md.com> wrote in message >> news:%23s3zTnX0IHA.4004@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... >>> spamlet wrote: >>>> This may sound like a pretty basic question, but I've hung on to >>>> various threads around the topic for a while, but still have a few >>>> points to clear up. >>>> >>>> Have XPPro on a nearly full 40gig internal drive, and recently bought 2 >>>> MyBook 500gig externals. >>>> Despite reading around, I still got a surprise to find there was only a >>>> usb port on the back of the drives, so I won't be plugging one in to my >>>> router after all... so I want to minimise the chances of any further c >>>> ' ups. >>>> >>>> The way I see it, the sensible thing to do would be to divide the new >>>> drives into sections (drives? partitions?): a section, maybe the same >>>> size as the original drive, to clone the operating system and programme >>>> files to; and a main section for transferring and backing up all the >>>> personal data files. I have never done any work on drives/partitions >>>> before, so I am not sure exactly how to proceed. >>>> >>> You don't need to partition anything. A good program like Acronis True >>> Image Home will write an *image* of your 40 gig drive to the USB drive. >>> You can store several copies on that same large drive. >>> If you clone over and over and over, you only have the last backup. And >>> in reality, if you get a virus, and then clone before you know it, you >>> now got a clone on the only copy of your backup. So multiple images >>> is a more practical backup. >>> You can boot off the restore CD and pick which image you want, and you >>> can even pick files within the image. You don't have to restore the >>> entire drive. >>> >>>> I am also unsure as to whether I can boot from any clone I might put on >>>> the external drive - obviously I would like to be able to do this; and >>>> whether there will be a problem cloning from a smaller drive to a >>>> larger one (One source I read mentioned a clone programme treating the >>>> larger drive as if it was still only the same size as the original.) >>>> >>> Acronis will allow you to clone from a small to a large drive. That's >>> one of its features, to allow you to install a new drive and upgrade. >>> But it will be hard if not impossible to boot from the external drive. >>> Another problem is that cloning is meant for drive replacement. And >>> normally the directions are to remove the cloned (USB) drive after doing >>> the clone operation. >>> If you make the boot disc and boot off of it, you make the clone and >>> then immediately shutdown and swap drives. The new drive, lets say the >>> 500 gig is in your cabinet, now boots and changes the drive letter to C: >>> as it should be and not the D: or E: or whatever it was. This is the >>> intent of the clone operation. >>> >>> >>>> I know these are questions that ideally I should have asked before >>>> buying the new drives, but until one actually tries to use them, the >>>> questions don't occur to the inexperienced! >>>> >>>> Also, are there any suitable free cloning programmes I should consider; >>>> and/or should I nowadays be looking at Ghost, or Acronis? >>>> >>>> Any advice or links pointing to a step by step process for achieving >>>> the above aims, would be much appreciated. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> S >>>> >>> Hope this helps. >> >> Thanks Al, >> >> Still a bit puzzling though: the 'clone' appears to be a very large' >> image' folder that is used to write everything onto a replacement drive, >> should the original become unusable. Yet you say that one can choose >> which files are restored? This sounds like a contradiction? >> > I may have typed wrong. Peter gave a good response. A clone is a > complete bootable copy made to another drive, the complete partition is > duped. > An image is a complete copy but its just a compressed file and you can > restore individual files from it. However if you restore it as a > complete, you can make the destination bootable. So its almost the same. > >> Should, say, just one programme become corrupted in some way, how would >> one pick out all its various components and get them back and working in >> the right places? Or does one use the clone like a giant 'System >> Restore' point, where, as soon as anything starts playing up, one reverts >> to an image of the whole system that previously worked, without any >> reference to the individual programmes? With the possible difference, >> that one might have to reformat the whole drive before installing the >> full system clone? >> > If you had a problem with Office, having a backup would do you little good > unless you specifically knew that file xxx.dll was bad or such. Otherwise > yes, you could just restore the entire image and like you said, make a > giant system restore. And TI will format and/or partition before > restoring an entire image if you wish. > > When I reloaded my PC with SP3, I did all the loading and setup and custom > config etc, then imaged the PC. Now I have the very very very first > virgin load to use. I also have more recent images if I want. And daily > minor file backups. > >> As the system and programme files are less likely to change, >> fundamentally, than the personal data files, I would have thought that >> the 'clone' ought to be just these files, while the data files were >> backed up with a normal back up programme. > You cannot pick with a clone. A clone is the entire partition. >> > And as some people suggest, you can make two partitions C: for the OS and > D: for the data. As long as you understand an install of a program on > D: effects changes to the OS on C: and you have to manage it like so, yes > you can do that. > >> You say I must remove the usb drive after doing any clone operation, yet >> I can have multiple clone images on that drive? Doesn't that imply that >> I must have 'two drives' on my new 500gig, so that one can be 'removed' >> while my other 'non image' stored files, remain available? >> > You can have multiple images on a drive. But a clone wipes an entire > partition. Peter commented that he makes multiple partitions and rotates > his clones. Doing one on partition #1 then one #2 then back to #1 (if I > got his quote right). I just put several images on the same drive > partition. > > And (assume you have single partitioned drives) TI's procedure for a clone > would be to clone your C: drive to lets say E: drive in a USB cabinet. > When you finish, you turn everything off, remove the C: drive, put the E: > drive in the PC and boot. TI has a small loader that changes the E: to > C: for the obvious reasons and then boots. You now have your system > running but on another drive. When you did the clone, you had the option > to size the partition on E: by the way, so you can move from small to a > larger partition. > >> Sorry to appear so dumb... >> >> Assistance much appreciated, >> Thanks, >> S > TI can actually be used like a partition manager. A bit awkward but if > you had a C:/D: drive split, you could image the two of them (in one > operation) to the USB, then restore them back but partition the C:/D: > different. A bit awkward but it can be done. Thanks very much for the clarifications Peter and Al. So would I now be (unfortunately) right in telling my partner, that should she step on her laptop again, while out and about, she cannot have a clone on a portable drive handy to boot from unless she dismantles the laptop and the drive to swap them over? Somehow I was foolish enough to expect that there would be a real backup option to get around this situation. Are you telling me there is not? If there is such a product available, what is it? On the less extreme back up situation front. It seems that I need to know more about the methods/pros/cons of partitioning and drive manipulation. Can either of you point me at any good reading matter on the subject? How did Peter partition his drives: there does not seem to be a partitioning option in 'Disk management'? Finally, from what you are both saying, it would appear that ATI will, on its own, be able to accomplish everything that I may need to do with regard to back up processes/partition creation etc. and so this is the product I should be getting. On a more general back up note: do all back up products work by creating their own 'image sets' that just look like single files that only the creating programme can open (I think I have stacks of such sets from my old W3.1 days, and I never could keep track of which was which and which programme made them!). Apart from copying 'by hand' is there no back up that just copies the file system over as is? Thanks once again, S
Guest Big_Al Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Re: Backup strategy to hard drive bigger than original spamlet wrote: > "Big_Al" <BigAl@md.com> wrote in message > news:eSPDTxa0IHA.416@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >> spamlet wrote: >>> "Big_Al" <BigAl@md.com> wrote in message >>> news:%23s3zTnX0IHA.4004@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... >>>> spamlet wrote: >>>>> This may sound like a pretty basic question, but I've hung on to >>>>> various threads around the topic for a while, but still have a few >>>>> points to clear up. >>>>> >>>>> Have XPPro on a nearly full 40gig internal drive, and recently bought 2 >>>>> MyBook 500gig externals. >>>>> Despite reading around, I still got a surprise to find there was only a >>>>> usb port on the back of the drives, so I won't be plugging one in to my >>>>> router after all... so I want to minimise the chances of any further c >>>>> ' ups. >>>>> >>>>> The way I see it, the sensible thing to do would be to divide the new >>>>> drives into sections (drives? partitions?): a section, maybe the same >>>>> size as the original drive, to clone the operating system and programme >>>>> files to; and a main section for transferring and backing up all the >>>>> personal data files. I have never done any work on drives/partitions >>>>> before, so I am not sure exactly how to proceed. >>>>> >>>> You don't need to partition anything. A good program like Acronis True >>>> Image Home will write an *image* of your 40 gig drive to the USB drive. >>>> You can store several copies on that same large drive. >>>> If you clone over and over and over, you only have the last backup. And >>>> in reality, if you get a virus, and then clone before you know it, you >>>> now got a clone on the only copy of your backup. So multiple images >>>> is a more practical backup. >>>> You can boot off the restore CD and pick which image you want, and you >>>> can even pick files within the image. You don't have to restore the >>>> entire drive. >>>> >>>>> I am also unsure as to whether I can boot from any clone I might put on >>>>> the external drive - obviously I would like to be able to do this; and >>>>> whether there will be a problem cloning from a smaller drive to a >>>>> larger one (One source I read mentioned a clone programme treating the >>>>> larger drive as if it was still only the same size as the original.) >>>>> >>>> Acronis will allow you to clone from a small to a large drive. That's >>>> one of its features, to allow you to install a new drive and upgrade. >>>> But it will be hard if not impossible to boot from the external drive. >>>> Another problem is that cloning is meant for drive replacement. And >>>> normally the directions are to remove the cloned (USB) drive after doing >>>> the clone operation. >>>> If you make the boot disc and boot off of it, you make the clone and >>>> then immediately shutdown and swap drives. The new drive, lets say the >>>> 500 gig is in your cabinet, now boots and changes the drive letter to C: >>>> as it should be and not the D: or E: or whatever it was. This is the >>>> intent of the clone operation. >>>> >>>> >>>>> I know these are questions that ideally I should have asked before >>>>> buying the new drives, but until one actually tries to use them, the >>>>> questions don't occur to the inexperienced! >>>>> >>>>> Also, are there any suitable free cloning programmes I should consider; >>>>> and/or should I nowadays be looking at Ghost, or Acronis? >>>>> >>>>> Any advice or links pointing to a step by step process for achieving >>>>> the above aims, would be much appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> S >>>>> >>>> Hope this helps. >>> Thanks Al, >>> >>> Still a bit puzzling though: the 'clone' appears to be a very large' >>> image' folder that is used to write everything onto a replacement drive, >>> should the original become unusable. Yet you say that one can choose >>> which files are restored? This sounds like a contradiction? >>> >> I may have typed wrong. Peter gave a good response. A clone is a >> complete bootable copy made to another drive, the complete partition is >> duped. >> An image is a complete copy but its just a compressed file and you can >> restore individual files from it. However if you restore it as a >> complete, you can make the destination bootable. So its almost the same. >> >>> Should, say, just one programme become corrupted in some way, how would >>> one pick out all its various components and get them back and working in >>> the right places? Or does one use the clone like a giant 'System >>> Restore' point, where, as soon as anything starts playing up, one reverts >>> to an image of the whole system that previously worked, without any >>> reference to the individual programmes? With the possible difference, >>> that one might have to reformat the whole drive before installing the >>> full system clone? >>> >> If you had a problem with Office, having a backup would do you little good >> unless you specifically knew that file xxx.dll was bad or such. Otherwise >> yes, you could just restore the entire image and like you said, make a >> giant system restore. And TI will format and/or partition before >> restoring an entire image if you wish. >> >> When I reloaded my PC with SP3, I did all the loading and setup and custom >> config etc, then imaged the PC. Now I have the very very very first >> virgin load to use. I also have more recent images if I want. And daily >> minor file backups. >> >>> As the system and programme files are less likely to change, >>> fundamentally, than the personal data files, I would have thought that >>> the 'clone' ought to be just these files, while the data files were >>> backed up with a normal back up programme. >> You cannot pick with a clone. A clone is the entire partition. >> And as some people suggest, you can make two partitions C: for the OS and >> D: for the data. As long as you understand an install of a program on >> D: effects changes to the OS on C: and you have to manage it like so, yes >> you can do that. >> >>> You say I must remove the usb drive after doing any clone operation, yet >>> I can have multiple clone images on that drive? Doesn't that imply that >>> I must have 'two drives' on my new 500gig, so that one can be 'removed' >>> while my other 'non image' stored files, remain available? >>> >> You can have multiple images on a drive. But a clone wipes an entire >> partition. Peter commented that he makes multiple partitions and rotates >> his clones. Doing one on partition #1 then one #2 then back to #1 (if I >> got his quote right). I just put several images on the same drive >> partition. >> >> And (assume you have single partitioned drives) TI's procedure for a clone >> would be to clone your C: drive to lets say E: drive in a USB cabinet. >> When you finish, you turn everything off, remove the C: drive, put the E: >> drive in the PC and boot. TI has a small loader that changes the E: to >> C: for the obvious reasons and then boots. You now have your system >> running but on another drive. When you did the clone, you had the option >> to size the partition on E: by the way, so you can move from small to a >> larger partition. >> >>> Sorry to appear so dumb... >>> >>> Assistance much appreciated, >>> Thanks, >>> S >> TI can actually be used like a partition manager. A bit awkward but if >> you had a C:/D: drive split, you could image the two of them (in one >> operation) to the USB, then restore them back but partition the C:/D: >> different. A bit awkward but it can be done. > > Thanks very much for the clarifications Peter and Al. > > So would I now be (unfortunately) right in telling my partner, that should > she step on her laptop again, while out and about, she cannot have a clone > on a portable drive handy to boot from unless she dismantles the laptop and > the drive to swap them over? Somehow I was foolish enough to expect that > there would be a real backup option to get around this situation. Are you > telling me there is not? If there is such a product available, what is it? > > On the less extreme back up situation front. It seems that I need to know > more about the methods/pros/cons of partitioning and drive manipulation. > Can either of you point me at any good reading matter on the subject? How > did Peter partition his drives: there does not seem to be a partitioning > option in 'Disk management'? There is. When you have a virgin drive and create that first partition it will ask you how much of the drive to use. If you use less than 100%, you have another option later to partition the remainder. Again you can use less than 100% of that and so on. There are limits, but you get the idea. > > Finally, from what you are both saying, it would appear that ATI will, on > its own, be able to accomplish everything that I may need to do with regard > to back up processes/partition creation etc. and so this is the product I > should be getting. It will backup files and clone drives. When it clones, it allows for changing a partition or using what is currently there. So far I have not found a reason for another utility. > > On a more general back up note: do all back up products work by creating > their own 'image sets' that just look like single files that only the > creating programme can open (I think I have stacks of such sets from my old > W3.1 days, and I never could keep track of which was which and which > programme made them!). Apart from copying 'by hand' is there no back up > that just copies the file system over as is? > There are programs like SecondCopy that keep things in sync. Goodsync and Allway, are two others. These do file copies. But yes, generally a backup utility writes proprietary single files like winzip. I normally put the program in the name: ATI9 C Drive Full Backup 6-10-08.tib I have ATI ver 9 on the laptop and ATI ver 10 on the desktop. So I do this for obvious reasons. ATI 11 is on sale at newegg for a week for 25$ right now. I may solve my delema this week. > Thanks once again, > > S > > >
Guest peter Posted June 21, 2008 Posted June 21, 2008 Re: Backup strategy to hard drive bigger than original -- DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... ;-) > > So would I now be (unfortunately) right in telling my partner, that should > she step on her laptop again, while out and about, she cannot have a clone > on a portable drive handy to boot from unless she dismantles the laptop and > the drive to swap them over? ANSWER......this is where an Image comes in..you can Image the whole laptop drive Then when that little accident occurs you can restore the whole image back to the original drive. Using the ATI bootable disc and an external USB drive..or if not too large a DL DVD . of course this is assuming her Laptop HD is still functioning.. > > On the less extreme back up situation front. It seems that I need to know > more about the methods/pros/cons of partitioning and drive manipulation. > Can either of you point me at any good reading matter on the subject? How > did Peter partition his drives: there does not seem to be a partitioning > option in 'Disk management'? ANSWER...I use a Program called BootIt NG..........if you do a Google for it you can download a free trial. I expanded the program to a Floppy and run it from the floppy...There is a huge help file included. But an external drive can be partitioned In XP thru Device manager./admin tools/.Computer Management > > Finally, from what you are both saying, it would appear that ATI will, on > its own, be able to accomplish everything that I may need to do with regard > to back up processes/partition creation etc. and so this is the product I > should be getting. > > On a more general back up note: do all back up products work by creating > their own 'image sets' that just look like single files that only the > creating programme can open (I think I have stacks of such sets from my old > W3.1 days, and I never could keep track of which was which and which > programme made them!). Apart from copying 'by hand' is there no back up > that just copies the file system over as is? ANSWER...ATI has a backup option that lets you decide what and when to back up to what.. I save all of my work to a specific Folder/subfolder...this plus the My Documents folder is what I automatically back up every nite I re Image once a Week............. > > Thanks once again, > > S > > >
Guest spamlet Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Re: Backup strategy to hard drive bigger than original "peter" <peterk@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:81D0E026-733A-435B-8847-743ABF727B55@microsoft.com... -- DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... ;-) > > So would I now be (unfortunately) right in telling my partner, that should > she step on her laptop again, while out and about, she cannot have a clone > on a portable drive handy to boot from unless she dismantles the laptop > and > the drive to swap them over? ANSWER......this is where an Image comes in..you can Image the whole laptop drive Then when that little accident occurs you can restore the whole image back to the original drive. Using the ATI bootable disc and an external USB drive..or if not too large a DL DVD . of course this is assuming her Laptop HD is still functioning.. > > On the less extreme back up situation front. It seems that I need to know > more about the methods/pros/cons of partitioning and drive manipulation. > Can either of you point me at any good reading matter on the subject? How > did Peter partition his drives: there does not seem to be a partitioning > option in 'Disk management'? ANSWER...I use a Program called BootIt NG..........if you do a Google for it you can download a free trial. I expanded the program to a Floppy and run it from the floppy...There is a huge help file included. But an external drive can be partitioned In XP thru Device manager./admin tools/.Computer Management > > Finally, from what you are both saying, it would appear that ATI will, on > its own, be able to accomplish everything that I may need to do with > regard > to back up processes/partition creation etc. and so this is the product I > should be getting. > > On a more general back up note: do all back up products work by creating > their own 'image sets' that just look like single files that only the > creating programme can open (I think I have stacks of such sets from my > old > W3.1 days, and I never could keep track of which was which and which > programme made them!). Apart from copying 'by hand' is there no back up > that just copies the file system over as is? ANSWER...ATI has a backup option that lets you decide what and when to back up to what.. I save all of my work to a specific Folder/subfolder...this plus the My Documents folder is what I automatically back up every nite I re Image once a Week............. > Thanks again to you both. I should, I think I am beginning to get the idea now, and will read up on both ATI and BootIt. Cheers, S
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