Unable to open files after chkdsk

January 24, 2008

We have a windows 2000 PC running in our office where all our common files

are stored. Basically all our word documents, spreadsheets and our databases.

The system reported a problem on the one hard drive where all the files are

stored and requested that chkdsk be run on reboot. This was done and windows

went ahead and repaired a number of files.

All the files are still there, and even the correct file sizes are

displayed, however we are unable to access 50% of them. When you try open a

file in word, word tries to import the file saying it doesn't recognise the

file type. The same with excel, PDF's, and JPG's.

As Murphy’s law would have it, it seems its most of the critical files that

we currently need that can't open. Our backup system is automated as well,

and as luck would have it, we only picked up the problem after the backups

where over written.

Is there anyway to repair these files?

January 24, 2008

Re: Unable to open files after chkdsk

"Chris" <Chris @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:F7D00CF0-ABB1-4526-9EE9-E054117F802C@microsoft.com...

> We have a windows 2000 PC running in our office where all our common files

> are stored. Basically all our word documents, spreadsheets and our

> databases.

>

> The system reported a problem on the one hard drive where all the files

> are

> stored and requested that chkdsk be run on reboot. This was done and

> windows

> went ahead and repaired a number of files.

>

> All the files are still there, and even the correct file sizes are

> displayed, however we are unable to access 50% of them. When you try open

> a

> file in word, word tries to import the file saying it doesn't recognise

> the

> file type. The same with excel, PDF's, and JPG's.

>

> As Murphy's law would have it, it seems its most of the critical files

> that

> we currently need that can't open. Our backup system is automated as well,

> and as luck would have it, we only picked up the problem after the backups

> where over written.

>

> Is there anyway to repair these files?

>

No, there isn't. You will have to review your backup scheme. If you

have important files then you must maintain at least two independent

backup copies so that if you back up a corrupted file, you have an

opportunity to go to the version before.

January 24, 2008

Re: Unable to open files after chkdsk

We usually keep backups weekly, monthly and every 3 months, I've been away on

vacation for 3 weeks, returned last week and discovered this today. Which of

course means our backups have all been over written for the last month.

Nobody else in the office noticed since all our databases all work correctly.

The Data from files that we need now though has happened in the last month

and is what is urgently required so going back to the previous 3 month backup

is pointless

Is there any reason why this happens and how to stop it from happening again

(thats if I dont get fired today).

"Pegasus (MVP)" wrote:

>

> "Chris" <Chris @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> news:F7D00CF0-ABB1-4526-9EE9-E054117F802C@microsoft.com...

> > We have a windows 2000 PC running in our office where all our common files

> > are stored. Basically all our word documents, spreadsheets and our

> > databases.

> >

> > The system reported a problem on the one hard drive where all the files

> > are

> > stored and requested that chkdsk be run on reboot. This was done and

> > windows

> > went ahead and repaired a number of files.

> >

> > All the files are still there, and even the correct file sizes are

> > displayed, however we are unable to access 50% of them. When you try open

> > a

> > file in word, word tries to import the file saying it doesn't recognise

> > the

> > file type. The same with excel, PDF's, and JPG's.

> >

> > As Murphy's law would have it, it seems its most of the critical files

> > that

> > we currently need that can't open. Our backup system is automated as well,

> > and as luck would have it, we only picked up the problem after the backups

> > where over written.

> >

> > Is there anyway to repair these files?

> >

>

> No, there isn't. You will have to review your backup scheme. If you

> have important files then you must maintain at least two independent

> backup copies so that if you back up a corrupted file, you have an

> opportunity to go to the version before.

>

January 24, 2008

Re: Unable to open files after chkdsk

If they are simply doc files, they *may* be repairable with a disc sector

editing tool, I once recovered a large Health & Safety doc that had become

corrupted - it was many years ago & I used some version of Norton

If you are planning any recovery attempts you should immediately make

copies, several, of these files, probably via xcopy

"Chris" <Chris@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:ABDA6CB0-2FCD-4763-AC01-218723DCFC31@microsoft.com...

> We usually keep backups weekly, monthly and every 3 months, I've been away

> on

> vacation for 3 weeks, returned last week and discovered this today. Which

> of

> course means our backups have all been over written for the last month.

> Nobody else in the office noticed since all our databases all work

> correctly.

> The Data from files that we need now though has happened in the last month

> and is what is urgently required so going back to the previous 3 month

> backup

> is pointless

>

> Is there any reason why this happens and how to stop it from happening

> again

> (thats if I dont get fired today).

>

> "Pegasus (MVP)" wrote:

>

>>

>> "Chris" <Chris @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

>> news:F7D00CF0-ABB1-4526-9EE9-E054117F802C@microsoft.com...

>> > We have a windows 2000 PC running in our office where all our common

>> > files

>> > are stored. Basically all our word documents, spreadsheets and our

>> > databases.

>> >

>> > The system reported a problem on the one hard drive where all the files

>> > are

>> > stored and requested that chkdsk be run on reboot. This was done and

>> > windows

>> > went ahead and repaired a number of files.

>> >

>> > All the files are still there, and even the correct file sizes are

>> > displayed, however we are unable to access 50% of them. When you try

>> > open

>> > a

>> > file in word, word tries to import the file saying it doesn't recognise

>> > the

>> > file type. The same with excel, PDF's, and JPG's.

>> >

>> > As Murphy's law would have it, it seems its most of the critical files

>> > that

>> > we currently need that can't open. Our backup system is automated as

>> > well,

>> > and as luck would have it, we only picked up the problem after the

>> > backups

>> > where over written.

>> >

>> > Is there anyway to repair these files?

>> >

>>

>> No, there isn't. You will have to review your backup scheme. If you

>> have important files then you must maintain at least two independent

>> backup copies so that if you back up a corrupted file, you have an

>> opportunity to go to the version before.

>>

January 24, 2008

Re: Unable to open files after chkdsk

You should be able to retrieve your files from the backups

that were created prior to you running chkdsk.exe.

"Chris" <Chris@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:ABDA6CB0-2FCD-4763-AC01-218723DCFC31@microsoft.com...

> We usually keep backups weekly, monthly and every 3 months, I've been away

> on

> vacation for 3 weeks, returned last week and discovered this today. Which

> of

> course means our backups have all been over written for the last month.

> Nobody else in the office noticed since all our databases all work

> correctly.

> The Data from files that we need now though has happened in the last month

> and is what is urgently required so going back to the previous 3 month

> backup

> is pointless

>

> Is there any reason why this happens and how to stop it from happening

> again

> (thats if I dont get fired today).

>

> "Pegasus (MVP)" wrote:

>

>>

>> "Chris" <Chris @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

>> news:F7D00CF0-ABB1-4526-9EE9-E054117F802C@microsoft.com...

>> > We have a windows 2000 PC running in our office where all our common

>> > files

>> > are stored. Basically all our word documents, spreadsheets and our

>> > databases.

>> >

>> > The system reported a problem on the one hard drive where all the files

>> > are

>> > stored and requested that chkdsk be run on reboot. This was done and

>> > windows

>> > went ahead and repaired a number of files.

>> >

>> > All the files are still there, and even the correct file sizes are

>> > displayed, however we are unable to access 50% of them. When you try

>> > open

>> > a

>> > file in word, word tries to import the file saying it doesn't recognise

>> > the

>> > file type. The same with excel, PDF's, and JPG's.

>> >

>> > As Murphy's law would have it, it seems its most of the critical files

>> > that

>> > we currently need that can't open. Our backup system is automated as

>> > well,

>> > and as luck would have it, we only picked up the problem after the

>> > backups

>> > where over written.

>> >

>> > Is there anyway to repair these files?

>> >

>>

>> No, there isn't. You will have to review your backup scheme. If you

>> have important files then you must maintain at least two independent

>> backup copies so that if you back up a corrupted file, you have an

>> opportunity to go to the version before.

>>

January 24, 2008

Re: Unable to open files after chkdsk

The backups for the last month all contain the corrupted files. It is the

files from the last month that I am trying to retrieve so they are all pretty

useless.

Is there any reason to why this is caused and how to prevent it?

Will also try look into a disc sector editor (not sure where to start though)

"Pegasus (MVP)" wrote:

> You should be able to retrieve your files from the backups

> that were created prior to you running chkdsk.exe.

>

> "Chris" <Chris@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> news:ABDA6CB0-2FCD-4763-AC01-218723DCFC31@microsoft.com...

> > We usually keep backups weekly, monthly and every 3 months, I've been away

> > on

> > vacation for 3 weeks, returned last week and discovered this today. Which

> > of

> > course means our backups have all been over written for the last month.

> > Nobody else in the office noticed since all our databases all work

> > correctly.

> > The Data from files that we need now though has happened in the last month

> > and is what is urgently required so going back to the previous 3 month

> > backup

> > is pointless

> >

> > Is there any reason why this happens and how to stop it from happening

> > again

> > (thats if I dont get fired today).

> >

> > "Pegasus (MVP)" wrote:

> >

> >>

> >> "Chris" <Chris @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> >> news:F7D00CF0-ABB1-4526-9EE9-E054117F802C@microsoft.com...

> >> > We have a windows 2000 PC running in our office where all our common

> >> > files

> >> > are stored. Basically all our word documents, spreadsheets and our

> >> > databases.

> >> >

> >> > The system reported a problem on the one hard drive where all the files

> >> > are

> >> > stored and requested that chkdsk be run on reboot. This was done and

> >> > windows

> >> > went ahead and repaired a number of files.

> >> >

> >> > All the files are still there, and even the correct file sizes are

> >> > displayed, however we are unable to access 50% of them. When you try

> >> > open

> >> > a

> >> > file in word, word tries to import the file saying it doesn't recognise

> >> > the

> >> > file type. The same with excel, PDF's, and JPG's.

> >> >

> >> > As Murphy's law would have it, it seems its most of the critical files

> >> > that

> >> > we currently need that can't open. Our backup system is automated as

> >> > well,

> >> > and as luck would have it, we only picked up the problem after the

> >> > backups

> >> > where over written.

> >> >

> >> > Is there anyway to repair these files?

> >> >

> >>

> >> No, there isn't. You will have to review your backup scheme. If you

> >> have important files then you must maintain at least two independent

> >> backup copies so that if you back up a corrupted file, you have an

> >> opportunity to go to the version before.

> >>

>

January 24, 2008

Re: Unable to open files after chkdsk

I don't understand. You wrote that your databases worked correctly

during your absence. If they did then the files that got backed up must

be useable, regardless of the corruption reported and subsequently

"fixed" by chkdsk.exe.

"Chris" <Chris@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:359132EE-89A8-4CE9-96B0-58302466B0F6@microsoft.com...

> The backups for the last month all contain the corrupted files. It is the

> files from the last month that I am trying to retrieve so they are all

> pretty

> useless.

>

> Is there any reason to why this is caused and how to prevent it?

>

> Will also try look into a disc sector editor (not sure where to start

> though)

>

> "Pegasus (MVP)" wrote:

>

>> You should be able to retrieve your files from the backups

>> that were created prior to you running chkdsk.exe.

>>

>> "Chris" <Chris@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

>> news:ABDA6CB0-2FCD-4763-AC01-218723DCFC31@microsoft.com...

>> > We usually keep backups weekly, monthly and every 3 months, I've been

>> > away

>> > on

>> > vacation for 3 weeks, returned last week and discovered this today.

>> > Which

>> > of

>> > course means our backups have all been over written for the last month.

>> > Nobody else in the office noticed since all our databases all work

>> > correctly.

>> > The Data from files that we need now though has happened in the last

>> > month

>> > and is what is urgently required so going back to the previous 3 month

>> > backup

>> > is pointless

>> >

>> > Is there any reason why this happens and how to stop it from happening

>> > again

>> > (thats if I dont get fired today).

>> >

>> > "Pegasus (MVP)" wrote:

>> >

>> >>

>> >> "Chris" <Chris @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

>> >> news:F7D00CF0-ABB1-4526-9EE9-E054117F802C@microsoft.com...

>> >> > We have a windows 2000 PC running in our office where all our common

>> >> > files

>> >> > are stored. Basically all our word documents, spreadsheets and our

>> >> > databases.

>> >> >

>> >> > The system reported a problem on the one hard drive where all the

>> >> > files

>> >> > are

>> >> > stored and requested that chkdsk be run on reboot. This was done and

>> >> > windows

>> >> > went ahead and repaired a number of files.

>> >> >

>> >> > All the files are still there, and even the correct file sizes are

>> >> > displayed, however we are unable to access 50% of them. When you try

>> >> > open

>> >> > a

>> >> > file in word, word tries to import the file saying it doesn't

>> >> > recognise

>> >> > the

>> >> > file type. The same with excel, PDF's, and JPG's.

>> >> >

>> >> > As Murphy's law would have it, it seems its most of the critical

>> >> > files

>> >> > that

>> >> > we currently need that can't open. Our backup system is automated as

>> >> > well,

>> >> > and as luck would have it, we only picked up the problem after the

>> >> > backups

>> >> > where over written.

>> >> >

>> >> > Is there anyway to repair these files?

>> >> >

>> >>

>> >> No, there isn't. You will have to review your backup scheme. If you

>> >> have important files then you must maintain at least two independent

>> >> backup copies so that if you back up a corrupted file, you have an

>> >> opportunity to go to the version before.

>> >>

>>

January 24, 2008

Re: Unable to open files after chkdsk

"Chris" <Chris @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:F7D00CF0-ABB1-4526-9EE9-E054117F802C@microsoft.com...

> We have a windows 2000 PC running in our office where all our common files

> are stored. Basically all our word documents, spreadsheets and our

databases.

>

> The system reported a problem on the one hard drive where all the files

are

> stored and requested that chkdsk be run on reboot. This was done and

windows

> went ahead and repaired a number of files.

>

> All the files are still there, and even the correct file sizes are

> displayed, however we are unable to access 50% of them. When you try open

a

> file in word, word tries to import the file saying it doesn't recognise

the

> file type. The same with excel, PDF's, and JPG's.

>

> As Murphy's law would have it, it seems its most of the critical files

that

> we currently need that can't open. Our backup system is automated as well,

> and as luck would have it, we only picked up the problem after the backups

> where over written.

>

> Is there anyway to repair these files?

>

As has been said, there's no way to repair/recover these corrupted files.

It is possible that the corruption occurred during chkdsk because you have a

large hard disk in a PC without the BigLBA registry hack applied. I've seen

this several times.

--

Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service

------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDem

January 24, 2008

Re: Unable to open files after chkdsk

On Jan 24, 8:16 am, "Colon Terminus" <Colon_Termi...@hotmail.com>

wrote:

> "Chris" <Chris @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

>

> news:F7D00CF0-ABB1-4526-9EE9-E054117F802C@microsoft.com...

>

> > We have a windows 2000 PC running in our office where all our common files

> > are stored. Basically all our word documents, spreadsheets and our

> databases.

>

> > The system reported a problem on the one hard drive where all the files

> are

> > stored and requested that chkdsk be run on reboot. This was done and

> windows

> > went ahead and repaired a number of files.

>

> > All the files are still there, and even the correct file sizes are

> > displayed, however we are unable to access 50% of them. When you try open

> a

> > file in word, word tries to import the file saying it doesn't recognise

> the

> > file type. The same with excel, PDF's, and JPG's.

>

> > As Murphy's law would have it, it seems its most of the critical files

> that

> > we currently need that can't open. Our backup system is automated as well,

> > and as luck would have it, we only picked up the problem after the backups

> > where over written.

>

> > Is there anyway to repair these files?

>

> As has been said, there's no way to repair/recover these corrupted files.

>

> It is possible that the corruption occurred during chkdsk because you have a

> large hard disk in a PC without the BigLBA registry hack applied. I've seen

> this several times.

>

> --

> Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service

> ------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDem

If your disk has (had?) a corrupted partition due to not having Enable

BigLBA installed as above, the following might work on a backup set

(but not on post-chkdsk-repaired files): first enable bigLBA, then fix

the partition using http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk , and your

files might be restored to working order.

January 25, 2008

Re: Unable to open files after chkdsk

"Pegasus (MVP)" wrote:

> I don't understand. You wrote that your databases worked correctly

> during your absence. If they did then the files that got backed up must

> be useable, regardless of the corruption reported and subsequently

> "fixed" by chkdsk.exe.

The Databases work, but most of the other files dont. I work for a

manufacturing company and the critical date like our spread sheets, all our

typed up quotations, our design calculcation, and all our drawings done over

the last month are corrupted. For some reason, the Databases were un effected

by chkdsk.

@ Colon and Zeke7, we haven't done the bigLBA hack, I'll search up on it now

and see if what you have suggested works.. Thanks.

January 25, 2008

Re: Unable to open files after chkdsk

Thanks guys, though seems bigLBA was enabled.

its got me completly confused, All the files are there, and the sizes all

show correct, yet I cant seem to open any of them

"zeke7" wrote:

> On Jan 24, 8:16 am, "Colon Terminus" <Colon_Termi...@hotmail.com>

> wrote:

> > "Chris" <Chris @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> >

> > news:F7D00CF0-ABB1-4526-9EE9-E054117F802C@microsoft.com...

> >

> > > We have a windows 2000 PC running in our office where all our common files

> > > are stored. Basically all our word documents, spreadsheets and our

> > databases.

> >

> > > The system reported a problem on the one hard drive where all the files

> > are

> > > stored and requested that chkdsk be run on reboot. This was done and

> > windows

> > > went ahead and repaired a number of files.

> >

> > > All the files are still there, and even the correct file sizes are

> > > displayed, however we are unable to access 50% of them. When you try open

> > a

> > > file in word, word tries to import the file saying it doesn't recognise

> > the

> > > file type. The same with excel, PDF's, and JPG's.

> >

> > > As Murphy's law would have it, it seems its most of the critical files

> > that

> > > we currently need that can't open. Our backup system is automated as well,

> > > and as luck would have it, we only picked up the problem after the backups

> > > where over written.

> >

> > > Is there anyway to repair these files?

> >

> > As has been said, there's no way to repair/recover these corrupted files.

> >

> > It is possible that the corruption occurred during chkdsk because you have a

> > large hard disk in a PC without the BigLBA registry hack applied. I've seen

> > this several times.

> >

> > --

> > Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service

> > ------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDem

>

> If your disk has (had?) a corrupted partition due to not having Enable

> BigLBA installed as above, the following might work on a backup set

> (but not on post-chkdsk-repaired files): first enable bigLBA, then fix

> the partition using http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk , and your

> files might be restored to working order.

>

January 25, 2008

Re: Unable to open files after chkdsk

I think that it's time to call a data recovery firm and explain the

situation to them and see if they can recover your files. These files

appear to be quite important and with all due respect neither you or

hardly any of the contributors here have sufficient data recovery

experience to be able to walk through this by newsgroup exchange and

discussions. From here on, if the files are recoverable, any thing that

you do may seriously or completely reduce any chances of successful

recovery by data recovery professionals.

If you wish to keep on working on this by yourself (and with the help of

the contributors here) I urge you to clone or image the corrupt disk and

work on it instead of the original disk. With the use of data recovery

software you may be able to salvage the files. Another thing that I

might try if I were in your position is mounting the disk to a Linux

installation and see if Linux can read them. On occasion I have seen or

heard of files that were unreadable by Windows yet Linux for some reason

or other could read them. At times it seems that minor MFT or NTFS

corruption that completely prevents Windows from reading the files has

less effect on Linux and it can read them, worth a try I think.

As for your questions of "why did this happen" and "how can I prevent

this in the future" there really isn't much that we can tell you. Disk

or file corruption happens and I would say that in 99% of the cases we

don't know why it happened, we run the disk checking utilities or we

restore from backups and we move on. I think that in your case you had

some bad luck thrown in with the disk corruption. Your backup strategy

appears sound but as luck would have it you were backing up what turned

out to be corrupt files and no one knew. In a perfect world the backups

should have been tested, but if you did that a few times already and

were satisfied that the backup method was sound and that it provided

usable backups then it is understandable that you may not have done

frequent regular tests on the backups.

One thing that isn't mentioned often enough is that there is *always* a

risk of data loss when chkdsk is run on a drive. Sometimes it can be

minor data loss and at other times it can be nearly complete data loss!

The more important the data the more precautions one should take

before running chkdsk, in your case perhaps doing a clone or image of

the disk before running chkdsk might have allowed you to recover the

files from the clone. But then who would have thought or bothered with

that? I would have said, "I have a backup so why bother with that" and

done exactly what you did. In hindsight it may have been wise to clone

or image the disk before running chkdsk, but hindsight is always 20/20,

isn't it?

Good luck!

John

Chris wrote:

> Thanks guys, though seems bigLBA was enabled.

>

> its got me completly confused, All the files are there, and the sizes all

> show correct, yet I cant seem to open any of them

>

> "zeke7" wrote:

>

>>On Jan 24, 8:16 am, "Colon Terminus" <Colon_Termi...@hotmail.com>

>>wrote:

>>

>>>"Chris" <Chris @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

>>>

>>>news:F7D00CF0-ABB1-4526-9EE9-E054117F802C@microsoft.com...

>>>

>>>>We have a windows 2000 PC running in our office where all our common files

>>>>are stored. Basically all our word documents, spreadsheets and our

>>>

>>>databases.

>>>

>>>>The system reported a problem on the one hard drive where all the files

>>>

>>>are

>>>

>>>>stored and requested that chkdsk be run on reboot. This was done and

>>>

>>>windows

>>>

>>>>went ahead and repaired a number of files.

>>>

>>>>All the files are still there, and even the correct file sizes are

>>>>displayed, however we are unable to access 50% of them. When you try open

>>>

>>>a

>>>

>>>>file in word, word tries to import the file saying it doesn't recognise

>>>

>>>the

>>>

>>>>file type. The same with excel, PDF's, and JPG's.

>>>

>>>>As Murphy's law would have it, it seems its most of the critical files

>>>

>>>that

>>>

>>>>we currently need that can't open. Our backup system is automated as well,

>>>>and as luck would have it, we only picked up the problem after the backups

>>>>where over written.

>>>

>>>>Is there anyway to repair these files?

>>>

>>>As has been said, there's no way to repair/recover these corrupted files.

>>>

>>>It is possible that the corruption occurred during chkdsk because you have a

>>>large hard disk in a PC without the BigLBA registry hack applied. I've seen

>>>this several times.

>>>

>>>--

>>>Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service

>>> ------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDem

>>

>>If your disk has (had?) a corrupted partition due to not having Enable

>>BigLBA installed as above, the following might work on a backup set

>>(but not on post-chkdsk-repaired files): first enable bigLBA, then fix

>>the partition using http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk , and your

>>files might be restored to working order.

>>

March 14, 2008

Re: Unable to open files after chkdsk

On Jan 24, 4:16 pm, Chris <Chris @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

> We have a windows 2000 PC running in our office where all our common files

> are stored. Basically all our word documents, spreadsheets and our databases.

>

> The system reported a problem on the one hard drive where all the files are

> stored and requested that chkdsk be run on reboot. This was done and windows

> went ahead and repaired a number of files.

>

> All the files are still there, and even the correct file sizes are

> displayed, however we are unable to access 50% of them. When you try open a

> file in word, word tries to import the file saying it doesn't recognise the

> file type. The same with excel, PDF's, and JPG's.

>

> As Murphy's law would have it, it seems its most of the critical files that

> we currently need that can't open. Our backup system is automated as well,

> and as luck would have it, we only picked up the problem after the backups

> where over written.

>

> Is there anyway to repair these files?

You may try some try some recovery tools. I have no idea about other

tools, but one program called Advanced Excel Repair is useful to me to

when I tried to repair your Excel file. It is a powerful tool to

repair corrupt or damaged Excel files.

Detailed information about Advanced Excel Repair can be found at

http://www.datanumen.com/aer/

And you can also download a free demo version at http://www.datanumen.com/aer/aer.exe

Hope this will help.

Alan

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