Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

[Guest Meinolf Weber]

Hello Will,

 

Normally only hardware that is hot swapable signed can be taken out this

way. For example on our servers i can just take out one disk from a mirror

or Raid 5 without any problem. It depends on your hardware.

 

Best regards

 

Meinolf Weber

Disclaimer: This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers

no rights.

** Please do NOT email, only reply to Newsgroups

** HELP us help YOU!!! http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/mul_crss.htm

> After you remove a drive letter from a hard drive, is there any

> command (or third party command line utility) that will make the drive

> safe for hot removal from the system?

>

[Guest Will]

Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

After you remove a drive letter from a hard drive, is there any command (or

third party command line utility) that will make the drive safe for hot

removal from the system?

 

--

Will

[Guest Pegasus \(MVP\)]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

 

"Will" <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote in message

news:kqCdncOwM6TOdSTanZ2dnUVZ_ramnZ2d@giganews.com...

> After you remove a drive letter from a hard drive, is there any command

> (or

> third party command line utility) that will make the drive safe for hot

> removal from the system?

>

> --

> Will

 

Your question is a little unclear because you probably use the

word "drive" for two entirely different things:

- First you use "drive" for the partition ("drive letter")

- Next you appear to use "drive" for the physical hard disk.

 

Do you want to physically remove the hard *disk* from

your system?

[Guest Pegasus \(MVP\)]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

 

"Will" <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote in message

news:kqCdncOwM6TOdSTanZ2dnUVZ_ramnZ2d@giganews.com...

> After you remove a drive letter from a hard drive, is there any command

> (or

> third party command line utility) that will make the drive safe for hot

> removal from the system?

>

> --

> Will

>

 

On a different note: Either your computer time is incorrect

or else your time zone setting is wrong. You're posting in

the future.

[Guest Will]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

I'm not talking about hardware RAID. I'm asking what needs to be done to

take out a Windows logical volume hot.

 

I've had good luck on an adhoc basis removing the drive letter, letting it

sit for a few minutes and then removing it. I'd like to get it down to a

more rigourous procedure.

 

--

Will

 

"Meinolf Weber" <meiweb(nospam)@gmx.de> wrote in message

news:ff16fb6688edb8ca4091ef855400@msnews.microsoft.com...

> Hello Will,

>

> Normally only hardware that is hot swapable signed can be taken out this

> way. For example on our servers i can just take out one disk from a mirror

> or Raid 5 without any problem. It depends on your hardware.

>

> Best regards

>

> Meinolf Weber

> Disclaimer: This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and

confers

> no rights.

> ** Please do NOT email, only reply to Newsgroups

> ** HELP us help YOU!!! http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/mul_crss.htm

>

> > After you remove a drive letter from a hard drive, is there any

> > command (or third party command line utility) that will make the drive

> > safe for hot removal from the system?

> >

>

>

[Guest Will]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

"Pegasus (MVP)" <I.can@fly.com.oz> wrote in message

news:uGVbTzncIHA.5160@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> "Will" <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote in message

> news:kqCdncOwM6TOdSTanZ2dnUVZ_ramnZ2d@giganews.com...

>> After you remove a drive letter from a hard drive, is there any command

>> (or

>> third party command line utility) that will make the drive safe for hot

>> removal from the system?

>>

>> --

>> Will

>

> Your question is a little unclear because you probably use the

> word "drive" for two entirely different things:

> - First you use "drive" for the partition ("drive letter")

> - Next you appear to use "drive" for the physical hard disk.

>

> Do you want to physically remove the hard *disk* from

> your system?

 

You are right sorry. I want to remove the volume and all of the partitions

on that volume from the system. For sake of simplicity, let's assume no

hardware RAID and the volume is implemented as a Dynamic volume on a single

physical drive.

 

So I was suggesting that I have had luck in removing drive letters from all

partitions on the volume, waiting a while, and then just unplugging the

volume. I would like to find a more robust way to disconnect a volume

without rebooting OS.

 

--

Will

[Guest Will]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

"Pegasus (MVP)" <I.can@fly.com.oz> wrote in message

news:O1jH2zncIHA.4436@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> "Will" <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote in message

> news:kqCdncOwM6TOdSTanZ2dnUVZ_ramnZ2d@giganews.com...

>> After you remove a drive letter from a hard drive, is there any command

>> (or

>> third party command line utility) that will make the drive safe for hot

>> removal from the system?

>>

>> --

>> Will

>>

>

> On a different note: Either your computer time is incorrect

> or else your time zone setting is wrong. You're posting in

> the future.

 

One of the systems I use is a Windows 2000 host without the fix installed

for daylight savings time and apparently it is one hour off time.

 

To be honest the host is not so critical to me that it is worth the time to

fix the time on it. Is it causing some problem to be one hour in future?

 

--

Will

[Guest Lanwench [MVP - Exchange]]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

Will <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote:

> "Pegasus (MVP)" <I.can@fly.com.oz> wrote in message

> news:O1jH2zncIHA.4436@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>> "Will" <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote in message

>> news:kqCdncOwM6TOdSTanZ2dnUVZ_ramnZ2d@giganews.com...

>>> After you remove a drive letter from a hard drive, is there any

>>> command (or

>>> third party command line utility) that will make the drive safe for

>>> hot removal from the system?

>>>

>>> --

>>> Will

>>>

>>

>> On a different note: Either your computer time is incorrect

>> or else your time zone setting is wrong. You're posting in

>> the future.

>

> One of the systems I use is a Windows 2000 host without the fix

> installed for daylight savings time and apparently it is one hour off

> time.

> To be honest the host is not so critical to me that it is worth the

> time to fix the time on it.

 

The fix is simple.... try this one.

 

http://www.intelliadmin.com/blog/2007/01/unofficial-windows-2000-daylight.html

> Is it causing some problem to be one

> hour in future?

 

Yes; you'll piss off newsgroup habitues who will presume you're trying to

jump the queue - do correct it.

[Guest Pegasus \(MVP\)]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

 

"Will" <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote in message

news:AKGdnToQapaggifanZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@giganews.com...

> "Pegasus (MVP)" <I.can@fly.com.oz> wrote in message

> news:uGVbTzncIHA.5160@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>> "Will" <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote in message

>> news:kqCdncOwM6TOdSTanZ2dnUVZ_ramnZ2d@giganews.com...

>>> After you remove a drive letter from a hard drive, is there any command

>>> (or

>>> third party command line utility) that will make the drive safe for hot

>>> removal from the system?

>>>

>>> --

>>> Will

>>

>> Your question is a little unclear because you probably use the

>> word "drive" for two entirely different things:

>> - First you use "drive" for the partition ("drive letter")

>> - Next you appear to use "drive" for the physical hard disk.

>>

>> Do you want to physically remove the hard *disk* from

>> your system?

>

> You are right sorry. I want to remove the volume and all of the

> partitions on that volume from the system. For sake of simplicity,

> let's assume no hardware RAID and the volume is implemented as a Dynamic

> volume on a single physical drive.

>

> So I was suggesting that I have had luck in removing drive letters from

> all partitions on the volume, waiting a while, and then just unplugging

> the volume. I would like to find a more robust way to disconnect a

> volume without rebooting OS.

>

> --

> Will

 

As Meinholf Weber suggested, you need to have appropriately

designed hardware to remove a disk safely while the computer

is up and running. You were lucky so far that it worked for you

without such hardware. It may not always work: Your system might

crash and/or you risk damaging your your disk or your disk

controller. Use a USB disk - it is designed for this type of operation.

[Guest DevilsPGD]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

In message <ektfBNtcIHA.4968@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl> "Pegasus \(MVP\)"

<I.can@fly.com.oz> wrote:

>As Meinholf Weber suggested, you need to have appropriately

>designed hardware to remove a disk safely while the computer

>is up and running. You were lucky so far that it worked for you

>without such hardware. It may not always work: Your system might

>crash and/or you risk damaging your your disk or your disk

>controller. Use a USB disk - it is designed for this type of operation.

 

SATA is hotswappable (and by extension eSATA), as is SCSI, USB mass

storage devices, and Firewire. In fact, about the only storage

interface in use today that isn't hotswappable is IDE/PATA, and we're

already seeing IDE die off.

[Guest DevilsPGD]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

In message <68qdnQI45YvhgifanZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d@giganews.com> "Will"

<westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote:

>To be honest the host is not so critical to me that it is worth the time to

>fix the time on it. Is it causing some problem to be one hour in future?

 

Yes. If you insist on having your timezone set incorrectly, also set

your clock wrong to match (or set a neighbouring timezone so that the

clock display is a local time)

[Guest Will]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

"DevilsPGD" <spam_narf_spam@crazyhat.net> wrote in message

news:fp4nr35gul5mp7add105ijg8fljirqntqf@4ax.com...

> In message <68qdnQI45YvhgifanZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d@giganews.com> "Will"

> <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote:

>

>>To be honest the host is not so critical to me that it is worth the time

>>to

>>fix the time on it. Is it causing some problem to be one hour in

>>future?

>

> Yes. If you insist on having your timezone set incorrectly, also set

> your clock wrong to match (or set a neighbouring timezone so that the

> clock display is a local time)

 

Unfortunately both Windows Time and NTP see to it that my manual corrections

are overwritten.

 

I'll try to find time to apply Microsoft's obscenely overcomplicated fix

later, and in the meantime I will try to remember to not post to Microsoft

newsgroups from the affected computer.

 

--

Will

[Guest Will]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

"DevilsPGD" <spam_narf_spam@crazyhat.net> wrote in message

news:4k4nr358lcl8udv2c0kmodv9on7npb106o@4ax.com...

> In message <ektfBNtcIHA.4968@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl> "Pegasus \(MVP\)"

> <I.can@fly.com.oz> wrote:

>

>>As Meinholf Weber suggested, you need to have appropriately

>>designed hardware to remove a disk safely while the computer

>>is up and running. You were lucky so far that it worked for you

>>without such hardware. It may not always work: Your system might

>>crash and/or you risk damaging your your disk or your disk

>>controller. Use a USB disk - it is designed for this type of operation.

>

> SATA is hotswappable (and by extension eSATA), as is SCSI, USB mass

> storage devices, and Firewire. In fact, about the only storage

> interface in use today that isn't hotswappable is IDE/PATA, and we're

> already seeing IDE die off.

 

I think you and he are talking to different meanings of hotswappable.

 

You are talking about electrical interfaces, without asking the equally

important question can the OS be told to "disconnect" the affected storage

in order to not corrupt any of its file system structures that may be left

in some unwritten or unfinished state.

 

Frankly, to me it is just plain bizarre that Microsoft has a nice system

gadget to disconnect flash drives from the system so they can be

disconnected without rebooting, yet it never occurred to Microsoft that

someone might want to do the same with any attached hard drive? As you

rightly point out, SATA and SCSI both support electrical hot disconnects.

There just isn't operating system support for that disconnection when the

disconnected device is holding a logical volume.

 

The other posters are side-stepping the issue entirely and just pointing out

that if a hotswap drive is a member of a hardware RAID array, that direct

disconnect of the drive is allowable as long as the hardware RAID controller

supports hot disconnect (and most do). That of course is something that

has been around for 10 years on high end servers and it's not the

interesting question, and it's not the question I was asking about.

 

I want a way to *safely* disconnect a logical volume from the Windows OS in

a way that is *not* transparent to the Windows OS. There doesn't appear

to be any official mechanism for doing this, and any unofficial methods are

apparently not being published.

 

--

Will

[Guest DevilsPGD]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

In message <NuWdnT9SR_qwTCbanZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@giganews.com> "Will"

<westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote:

>"DevilsPGD" <spam_narf_spam@crazyhat.net> wrote in message

>news:fp4nr35gul5mp7add105ijg8fljirqntqf@4ax.com...

>> In message <68qdnQI45YvhgifanZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d@giganews.com> "Will"

>> <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote:

>>

>>>To be honest the host is not so critical to me that it is worth the time

>>>to

>>>fix the time on it. Is it causing some problem to be one hour in

>>>future?

>>

>> Yes. If you insist on having your timezone set incorrectly, also set

>> your clock wrong to match (or set a neighbouring timezone so that the

>> clock display is a local time)

>

>Unfortunately both Windows Time and NTP see to it that my manual corrections

>are overwritten.

>

>I'll try to find time to apply Microsoft's obscenely overcomplicated fix

>later, and in the meantime I will try to remember to not post to Microsoft

>newsgroups from the affected computer.

 

Changing your timeZONE to a neighbouring one would likely solve the

problem during the appropriate weeks of the year. It will require a

manual change twice a year, but that's hopefully not the end of the

world.

[Guest DevilsPGD]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

In message <Gq6dnXxQP_x2TybanZ2dnUVZWhednZ2d@giganews.com> "Will"

<westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote:

>"DevilsPGD" <spam_narf_spam@crazyhat.net> wrote in message

>news:4k4nr358lcl8udv2c0kmodv9on7npb106o@4ax.com...

>> In message <ektfBNtcIHA.4968@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl> "Pegasus \(MVP\)"

>> <I.can@fly.com.oz> wrote:

>>

>>>As Meinholf Weber suggested, you need to have appropriately

>>>designed hardware to remove a disk safely while the computer

>>>is up and running. You were lucky so far that it worked for you

>>>without such hardware. It may not always work: Your system might

>>>crash and/or you risk damaging your your disk or your disk

>>>controller. Use a USB disk - it is designed for this type of operation.

>>

>> SATA is hotswappable (and by extension eSATA), as is SCSI, USB mass

>> storage devices, and Firewire. In fact, about the only storage

>> interface in use today that isn't hotswappable is IDE/PATA, and we're

>> already seeing IDE die off.

>

>I think you and he are talking to different meanings of hotswappable.

 

I don't believe so. "Pegasus \(MVP\)" specifically mentions

"appropriately designed hardware" -- The point of my message was that

appropriately designed hardware is already installed in the majority of

modern computers.

>You are talking about electrical interfaces, without asking the equally

>important question can the OS be told to "disconnect" the affected storage

>in order to not corrupt any of its file system structures that may be left

>in some unwritten or unfinished state.

 

True -- Your original question was specific to software, whereas

"Pegasus \(MVP\)"'s reply was implying that the software doesn't support

it because the hardware does not.

 

A fair position, had it been based on fact rather then fiction.

>Frankly, to me it is just plain bizarre that Microsoft has a nice system

>gadget to disconnect flash drives from the system so they can be

>disconnected without rebooting, yet it never occurred to Microsoft that

>someone might want to do the same with any attached hard drive? As you

>rightly point out, SATA and SCSI both support electrical hot disconnects.

>There just isn't operating system support for that disconnection when the

>disconnected device is holding a logical volume.

 

This is actually a driver issue -- If a driver indicates that it's

associated hardware is hot-swappable, Windows will offer to "Safely

Remove" that particular device.

 

On my current desktop, the Microsoft supplied SATA driver does offer the

"safely remove" option, whereas once the Intel Storage Matrix components

are installed, that option disappears. Unfortunately, as the Intel

software is apparently required for NCQ/TCQ support.

>I want a way to *safely* disconnect a logical volume from the Windows OS in

>a way that is *not* transparent to the Windows OS.

 

Actually, what you want is a way to safely prepare the OS for a

disconnection of the physical device. That would naturally disconnect

any logical volumes associated with that physical device, and

potentially shut down power to the interface in question (PCMCIA cards

were famous for needing power to be shut down first, most other

hotswappable devices aren't nearly as picky)

 

Sadly, there doesn't seem to be any reliable way to convince Windows

that a particular hardware is or is not hotswappable manually, you need

the driver to inform Windows that the device is removable.

[Guest Edwin vMierlo [MVP]]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

let me jump in here :

> "appropriately designed hardware"

 

True

> This is actually a driver issue

 

Also True

 

If you run hot-swapable hardware, but the driver does not support it, and

you still "hot-swap" you might get into trouble.

If you run non-hot-swapable hardware, but manage to load a driver which

supports it, you also might get into trouble.

 

With trouble I mean, data corruption or even physical/electrical damage to

your equipment.

 

It is the combination folks, both hardware and driver must support hot-swap

or "safely remove".

If that option is not offered to you or if you are not sure if your hardware

is hot-swapable, then you must contact the hardware manufacturer for support

or any other queries.

 

 

 

 

rgds,

Edwin.

[Guest Will]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

"Edwin vMierlo [MVP]" <EdwinvMierlo@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

message news:e%23%23mhk5cIHA.4712@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> let me jump in here :

>

>> "appropriately designed hardware"

>

> True

>

>> This is actually a driver issue

>

> Also True

>

> If you run hot-swapable hardware, but the driver does not support it, and

> you still "hot-swap" you might get into trouble.

> If you run non-hot-swapable hardware, but manage to load a driver which

> supports it, you also might get into trouble.

>

> With trouble I mean, data corruption or even physical/electrical damage to

> your equipment.

>

> It is the combination folks, both hardware and driver must support

> hot-swap

> or "safely remove".

> If that option is not offered to you or if you are not sure if your

> hardware

> is hot-swapable, then you must contact the hardware manufacturer for

> support

> or any other queries.

 

For consumer devices that are intended to contantly be inserted and removed,

you can understand why the vendor implements a driver specifically to

support hot swapping. Hot swapping is the primary intended usage.

 

But for a SCSI hard drive that is mounted JBOD on a hotswap bus, I don't

think you can expect a vendor to provide a driver to make the drive safe to

dismount. Most don't have the time or budget for it since its not a

common use case. The Compaq's and Dell's of the world are focused on

implementing robust hardware RAID and don't want to be bothered by someone

putting in a few JBOD drives into their non RAID enclosures just to grab a

quick backup to disk.

 

I would expect Microsoft to think through when someone might have a

legitimate need to disconnect a SCSI hotswap JBOD drive from the system and

provide a generic mechanism for that, as a catch all for devices that don't

have custom drivers for removal. I think a consideration of such usage

would show plenty of legitimate use cases. And if Microsoft is trusting an

administrative user to delete the volume, then I don't see why the same user

cannot be trusted to disconnect that volume from the OS. Disconnecting a

drive by mistake is a LOT less serious than deleting the volume by mistake.

 

--

Will

[Guest Lanwench [MVP - Exchange]]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

Will <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote:

> "DevilsPGD" <spam_narf_spam@crazyhat.net> wrote in message

> news:fp4nr35gul5mp7add105ijg8fljirqntqf@4ax.com...

>> In message <68qdnQI45YvhgifanZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d@giganews.com> "Will"

>> <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote:

>>

>>> To be honest the host is not so critical to me that it is worth the

>>> time to

>>> fix the time on it. Is it causing some problem to be one hour in

>>> future?

>>

>> Yes. If you insist on having your timezone set incorrectly, also set

>> your clock wrong to match (or set a neighbouring timezone so that the

>> clock display is a local time)

>

> Unfortunately both Windows Time and NTP see to it that my manual

> corrections are overwritten.

>

> I'll try to find time to apply Microsoft's obscenely overcomplicated

> fix later, and in the meantime I will try to remember to not post to

> Microsoft newsgroups from the affected computer.

 

Did you see my link? It's a *very* simple fix.....

[Guest Will]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

"Pegasus (MVP)" <I.can@fly.com.oz> wrote in message

news:ektfBNtcIHA.4968@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>

> "Will" <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote in message

> news:AKGdnToQapaggifanZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@giganews.com...

>> "Pegasus (MVP)" <I.can@fly.com.oz> wrote in message

>> news:uGVbTzncIHA.5160@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>> "Will" <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote in message

>>> news:kqCdncOwM6TOdSTanZ2dnUVZ_ramnZ2d@giganews.com...

>>>> After you remove a drive letter from a hard drive, is there any command

>>>> (or

>>>> third party command line utility) that will make the drive safe for hot

>>>> removal from the system?

>>>>

>>>> --

>>>> Will

>>>

>>> Your question is a little unclear because you probably use the

>>> word "drive" for two entirely different things:

>>> - First you use "drive" for the partition ("drive letter")

>>> - Next you appear to use "drive" for the physical hard disk.

>>>

>>> Do you want to physically remove the hard *disk* from

>>> your system?

>>

>> You are right sorry. I want to remove the volume and all of the

>> partitions on that volume from the system. For sake of simplicity,

>> let's assume no hardware RAID and the volume is implemented as a Dynamic

>> volume on a single physical drive.

>>

>> So I was suggesting that I have had luck in removing drive letters from

>> all partitions on the volume, waiting a while, and then just unplugging

>> the volume. I would like to find a more robust way to disconnect a

>> volume without rebooting OS.

>>

>> --

>> Will

>

> As Meinholf Weber suggested, you need to have appropriately

> designed hardware to remove a disk safely while the computer

> is up and running. You were lucky so far that it worked for you

> without such hardware. It may not always work: Your system might

> crash and/or you risk damaging your your disk or your disk

> controller. Use a USB disk - it is designed for this type of operation.

 

For what it's worth, I found that with Symantec Storage Foundation there are

command lines to detach a disk to prepare it for power off, and commands to

later attach and reactivate the disk and volume(s).

 

--

Will

[Guest Edwin vMierlo [MVP]]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

>

> For what it's worth, I found that with Symantec Storage Foundation there

are

> command lines to detach a disk to prepare it for power off, and commands

to

> later attach and reactivate the disk and volume(s).

>

 

And still you need hardware which is designed for "hot-swap"

If not you might risk physical/electrical damage to your equipment

 

1) ensure your hardware supports "hot-swap"

2) ensure your software (e.g. drivers) supports "hot-swap"

 

no short cuts to be taken unless you are prepared for data loss, data

corruption and hardware loss / damage

 

rgds,

Edwin.

[Guest Will]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

"Edwin vMierlo [MVP]" <EdwinvMierlo@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

message news:eytZkeGdIHA.4196@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> > For what it's worth, I found that with Symantec Storage Foundation there

> are

> > command lines to detach a disk to prepare it for power off, and commands

> to

> > later attach and reactivate the disk and volume(s).

>

> And still you need hardware which is designed for "hot-swap"

> If not you might risk physical/electrical damage to your equipment

>

> 1) ensure your hardware supports "hot-swap"

 

Right, but we are only using hotswap SCSI and SAS, drives all mounted in

hotswap trays. So electrical disconnect is not the issue. Moreover the

Symantec commands I mentioned would let you power off a disk device that is

*not* hotswappable.

 

> 2) ensure your software (e.g. drivers) supports "hot-swap"

 

No, I think you are missing the point. Veritas / Symantec implemented a

low level driver that flushes all information to the disk, prepares it for

power off, and then stops the OS from writing anything else to it from the

point that the disk is "detached". The very nice thing about that is it

allows you to power off even drives that are NOT hot swappable while the OS

runs hot. Of course reacquiring a device later that is not designed for

hot reconnection might or might not work and would be hit and miss.

Certainly it works beautifully with SCSI and SAS.

 

This all assumes that

 

a) you installed Symantec's Storage Foundation for Windows

 

b) before power off you issue Symantec "vxdisk detach ...."

 

c) after power on you issue Symantec command "vxdisk attach ...." and

volume reattach command(s).

 

I have tested it, recovered the drive hot - all without booting - and ran

CHKDSK /R to verify no damage, and the drives survive the power off and

power on sequence with no errors.

 

--

Will

[Guest Edwin vMierlo [MVP]]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

>

> Right, but we are only using hotswap SCSI and SAS, drives all mounted in

> hotswap trays. So electrical disconnect is not the issue. Moreover the

> Symantec commands I mentioned would let you power off a disk device that

is

> *not* hotswappable.

 

No, it just prepares the drivers from Symantec for device removal, this

might or might not be OK for hot-swapping. The Symantec drivers are

upperlayered drivers in the storage IO stack, and not disk device class

drivers, you still need a hot-swap functionality in your class driver.

Symantec are probably a "volume" device drivers, not a "disk" device

drivers.

>

>

> > 2) ensure your software (e.g. drivers) supports "hot-swap"

>

> No, I think you are missing the point. Veritas / Symantec implemented

a

> low level

 

actually there are not that low level at all, depending if you are used

looking at storage stacks, and what angle you approach this stack.

> driver that flushes all information to the disk,

 

only partly true, it flushes to the filesystem and volume, which ultimately

ends up on a disk, but disk is a different device then a volume device.

> prepares it for

> power off,

 

I would like to see that claim being backed up with some documentation

please ?

> and then stops the OS from writing anything else to it from the

> point that the disk is "detached".

 

not disk, you mean volume

> The very nice thing about that is it

> allows you to power off even drives that are NOT hot swappable while the

OS

> runs hot.

 

Nice claim, any documentation about this... now you use the term "drives",

with that do you mean disks or do you mean volumes, as "drives" to me is a

mounted "NTFS volume" represented by a "letter", and to be honest it would

be better not to use the term "drives".

> Of course reacquiring a device later that is not designed for

> hot reconnection might or might not work and would be hit and miss.

> Certainly it works beautifully with SCSI and SAS.

>

 

I think you are messing up your teminology big time, and confusing what the

driver stack looks like.

 

It could be that you are right, and in that case I am really interested to

see the documentation on that, and will stand corrected.

 

For now, I am signing off

Rgds,

Edwin.

[Guest Will]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

Edwin, before I go out and do some homework here to try to explain my

results more precisely, could you point me to a good overview document that

shows how the Windows storage driver stack looks and works?

 

Thanks for the distinction between volume and disk, and seeing an overview

that helps me clear that terminology would help me make my points clearer.

 

--

Will

 

"Edwin vMierlo [MVP]" <EdwinvMierlo@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

message news:%23Q5xR6TdIHA.4588@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

> > Right, but we are only using hotswap SCSI and SAS, drives all mounted in

> > hotswap trays. So electrical disconnect is not the issue. Moreover

the

> > Symantec commands I mentioned would let you power off a disk device that

> is

> > *not* hotswappable.

>

> No, it just prepares the drivers from Symantec for device removal, this

> might or might not be OK for hot-swapping. The Symantec drivers are

> upperlayered drivers in the storage IO stack, and not disk device class

> drivers, you still need a hot-swap functionality in your class driver.

> Symantec are probably a "volume" device drivers, not a "disk" device

> drivers.

>

> > > 2) ensure your software (e.g. drivers) supports "hot-swap"

> >

> > No, I think you are missing the point. Veritas / Symantec

implemented

> a

> > low level

>

> actually there are not that low level at all, depending if you are used

> looking at storage stacks, and what angle you approach this stack.

>

> > driver that flushes all information to the disk,

>

> only partly true, it flushes to the filesystem and volume, which

ultimately

> ends up on a disk, but disk is a different device then a volume device.

>

> > prepares it for

> > power off,

>

> I would like to see that claim being backed up with some documentation

> please ?

>

> > and then stops the OS from writing anything else to it from the

> > point that the disk is "detached".

>

> not disk, you mean volume

>

> > The very nice thing about that is it

> > allows you to power off even drives that are NOT hot swappable while the

> OS

> > runs hot.

>

> Nice claim, any documentation about this... now you use the term "drives",

> with that do you mean disks or do you mean volumes, as "drives" to me is a

> mounted "NTFS volume" represented by a "letter", and to be honest it would

> be better not to use the term "drives".

>

> > Of course reacquiring a device later that is not designed for

> > hot reconnection might or might not work and would be hit and miss.

> > Certainly it works beautifully with SCSI and SAS.

> >

>

> I think you are messing up your teminology big time, and confusing what

the

> driver stack looks like.

>

> It could be that you are right, and in that case I am really interested to

> see the documentation on that, and will stand corrected.

>

> For now, I am signing off

> Rgds,

> Edwin.

[Guest Edwin vMierlo [MVP]]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

 

"Will" <westes-usc@noemail.nospam> wrote in message

news:DvadnUe9dMzVkyLanZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@giganews.com...

> Edwin, before I go out and do some homework here to try to explain my

> results more precisely, could you point me to a good overview document

that

> shows how the Windows storage driver stack looks and works?

>

> Thanks for the distinction between volume and disk, and seeing an overview

> that helps me clear that terminology would help me make my points clearer.

>

> --

> Will

 

To be honest one of the best resources for storage I got from a book

 

"Inside Windows Storage" written by Dilip C. Naik.

ISBN 0-321-12698-X

 

HTH,

Edwin.

[Guest Edwin vMierlo [MVP]]

Re: Command To Allow Safe Removal of Hard Drive?

 

 

 

 

 

This is a simplified overview of the storage stack, Veritas driver usually

live in the "Volume Manager" space.