When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

April 13, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

dennis wrote:

> John John (MVP) wrote:

>

>> Microsoft *specifically* states that on Vista SP1 the available RAM is

>> *limited* to 3.12GB.

>

> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/929605

>

> *For example*, the System Information dialog box *may* report 3,120

> megabytes (MB) of system memory on a computer that has 4 GB of memory

> installed (4,096 MB).

Yes, it also *may* report 2.75GB. Read further on down below, Microsoft

specifically states that Vista 32-bit *limits* RAM to 3.12GB. If that

is not the case there is an error in the KB article.

John

April 13, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

John John (MVP) wrote:

> Yes, it also *may* report 2.75GB. Read further on down below, Microsoft

> specifically states that Vista 32-bit *limits* RAM to 3.12GB. If that

> is not the case there is an error in the KB article.

>

Yes, it *may* report anything. In the beginning they use 3.12 as an

example (they use the word example), and I strongly believe that this is

also the case in the end, they just don't want to write "for example" again.

April 13, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

dennis wrote:

> John John (MVP) wrote:

>

>> Yes, it also *may* report 2.75GB. Read further on down below,

>> Microsoft specifically states that Vista 32-bit *limits* RAM to

>> 3.12GB. If that is not the case there is an error in the KB article.

>>

>

> Yes, it *may* report anything. In the beginning they use 3.12 as an

> example (they use the word example), and I strongly believe that this is

> also the case in the end, they just don't want to write "for example"

> again.

I strongly believe that the KB article is right and that for driver

compatibility reasons the RAM is limited to 3.12 GB.

John

April 13, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

John John (MVP) wrote:

> I strongly believe that the KB article is right and that for driver

> compatibility reasons the RAM is limited to 3.12 GB.

Driver compatibility is about not going above 4 GB, which is possible

when Windows go into pae mode. So available RAM is 4 GB - memory mapped IO

April 13, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

dennis wrote:

> John John (MVP) wrote:

>

>> I strongly believe that the KB article is right and that for driver

>> compatibility reasons the RAM is limited to 3.12 GB.

>

> Driver compatibility is about not going above 4 GB, which is possible

> when Windows go into pae mode. So available RAM is 4 GB - memory mapped IO

Even with PAE enabled 32-bit Windows workstation versions cannot access

RAM above the 4GB arena. I shall agree to disagree with your

interpretation of the KB article and hope that a Microsoft engineer

informs us of the facts.

John

April 13, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

From the KB:

"For example, the System Information dialog box may report 3,120 megabytes

(MB) of system memory on a computer that has 4 GB of memory installed (4,096

MB)."

"John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

news:%23m0A0xXnIHA.5820@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> Microsoft *specifically* states that on Vista SP1 the available RAM is

> *limited* to 3.12GB.

>

>
> The reduction in available system memory depends on the devices that are
> installed in the computer. However, to avoid potential driver
> compatibility issues, the 32-bit versions of Windows Vista limit the total
> available memory to 3.12 GB.
>
> [end quote]
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/929605
>
> That is not presented as an example, it is presented as a fact in the
> article. If that isn't the case then Microsoft needs to revise that
> article, my ESL may not be perfect but I cannot read any meaning in the
> above statement other than RAM is limited to 3.12GB on Vista 32-bit SP1 if
> DEP is in use.
>
> John
>
> Colin Barnhorst wrote:
>
>> The 3.12GB is just an example given in a KB explaining why all 4GB are
>> not available to the user. The actual number varies according to the
>> system. 3.12GB has become a kind of urban legend due to folks not paying
>> attention to the fact that the author states he giving an example.
>>
>> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message
>> news:O8AZPnWnIHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>
>>> Actually, if we are to believe Microsoft articles, to avoid driver
>>> compatibility issues they *do* throttle the available RAM to 3.12GB on
>>> Vista 32-bit SP1. I'm not 100% sure but I think that disabling DEP (nx
>>> AlwaysOff) may remove the limit and allow users to see a bit more RAM if
>>> the hardware is using less addresses than the imposed limit.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure how Windows 32-bit XP2 handles the driver compatibility
>>> issues. If you have an XP SP2 box with 4GB RAM Colin, you could do
>>> tests with and without the /nopae switch (DEP disabled or enabled) and
>>> let us know the results. Disabling PAE automatically disables DEP.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> Colin Barnhorst wrote:
>>>
>>>> That is NOT something MS did at all. It is the BIOS on your mobo that
>>>> is reserving the space. My systems show from 2.5GB to 3.5GB, depending
>>>> on the hardware on the system. There is simply no such thing as a
>>>> 3.2GB limit. The often quoted knowlegebase article that gives 3.12GB
>>>> does so as an example in order to illustrate how the memory available
>>>> for user programs is calculated. It is no more valid for your system
>>>> than a TurboTax example would be for your real return.
>>>>
>>>> <miso@sushi.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:d384203d-a73b-40b3-8c7e-de524ddeb5eb@m1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 12, 3:34 pm, DevilsPGD <spam_narf_s...@crazyhat.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <40B437F3-D856-4A95-AB63-B93D7BCF5...@microsoft.com> Defjr
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <De...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >if you have less than 4 gigs of memory(why that magic number keeps
>>>>>> >showing up is beyond me)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2^32 is 4GB. If you're using a 32bit integer for address ranges, you
>>>>>> can't access memory above 4GB.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're an operating system, this isn't a big deal, you just don't
>>>>>> offer access to memory above 4GB at all and life is good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Applications can usually survive as the operating system's virtual
>>>>>> memory subsystem already remaps memory requests.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, drivers don't have that luxury as they deal directly with
>>>>>> hardware.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just to be clear here, while 2**32 is 4G, MS didn't see fit to allow
>>>>> their 32 bit OS to see 4G. The limit is around 3.2G. In some
>>>>> situations, I believe the Intel chip set is the limiting factor
>>>>> regarding available memory.
>>>>
>>>>

April 13, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

Dennis is correct.

"John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

news:%230GW6oZnIHA.3636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

> dennis wrote:

>

>> John John (MVP) wrote:

>>

>>> I strongly believe that the KB article is right and that for driver

>>> compatibility reasons the RAM is limited to 3.12 GB.

>>

>> Driver compatibility is about not going above 4 GB, which is possible

>> when Windows go into pae mode. So available RAM is 4 GB - memory mapped

>> IO

>

> Even with PAE enabled 32-bit Windows workstation versions cannot access

> RAM above the 4GB arena. I shall agree to disagree with your

> interpretation of the KB article and hope that a Microsoft engineer

> informs us of the facts.

>

> John

April 13, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

Check the manual for your mobo on your options for closing memory holes and

such. You probably can gain a small amount but not the whole thing.

"Zootal" <msnews@zootal.nospam.com> wrote in message

news:%23L4Eu8XnIHA.2328@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>I just booted to XP SP2 32 bit using the /nopae switch, and it still told

>me I had 3.00 GB of ram. This is an Asus M2A32.MVP board, Phenom 9600, 4GB

>of ram (four 1GB sticks). I'm open to playing with this if anyone has any

>ideas as to what I could do to get it to see more memory in XP32. I don't

>use XP32, and I have the partition backed up, so I'm not concerned about

>corrupting it to the point of needing to be wiped and restored.

>

> XP64 tells me I have 4.00 GB ram.

>

> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

> news:O8AZPnWnIHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

>> Actually, if we are to believe Microsoft articles, to avoid driver

>> compatibility issues they *do* throttle the available RAM to 3.12GB on

>> Vista 32-bit SP1. I'm not 100% sure but I think that disabling DEP (nx

>> AlwaysOff) may remove the limit and allow users to see a bit more RAM if

>> the hardware is using less addresses than the imposed limit.

>>

>> I'm not sure how Windows 32-bit XP2 handles the driver compatibility

>> issues. If you have an XP SP2 box with 4GB RAM Colin, you could do tests

>> with and without the /nopae switch (DEP disabled or enabled) and let us

>> know the results. Disabling PAE automatically disables DEP.

>>

>> John

>>

>> Colin Barnhorst wrote:

>>

>>> That is NOT something MS did at all. It is the BIOS on your mobo that

>>> is

>>> reserving the space. My systems show from 2.5GB to 3.5GB, depending on

>>> the hardware on the system. There is simply no such thing as a 3.2GB

>>> limit. The often quoted knowlegebase article that gives 3.12GB does so

>>> as

>>> an example in order to illustrate how the memory available for user

>>> programs is calculated. It is no more valid for your system than a

>>> TurboTax example would be for your real return.

>>>

>>> <miso@sushi.com> wrote in message

>>> news:d384203d-a73b-40b3-8c7e-de524ddeb5eb@m1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

>>>

>>>> On Apr 12, 3:34 pm, DevilsPGD <spam_narf_s...@crazyhat.net> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> In message <40B437F3-D856-4A95-AB63-B93D7BCF5...@microsoft.com> Defjr

>>>>>

>>>>> <De...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>>>>> >if you have less than 4 gigs of memory(why that magic number keeps

>>>>> >showing up is beyond me)

>>>>>

>>>>> 2^32 is 4GB. If you're using a 32bit integer for address ranges, you

>>>>> can't access memory above 4GB.

>>>>>

>>>>> If you're an operating system, this isn't a big deal, you just don't

>>>>> offer access to memory above 4GB at all and life is good.

>>>>>

>>>>> Applications can usually survive as the operating system's virtual

>>>>> memory subsystem already remaps memory requests.

>>>>>

>>>>> However, drivers don't have that luxury as they deal directly with

>>>>> hardware.

>>>>

>>>> Just to be clear here, while 2**32 is 4G, MS didn't see fit to allow

>>>> their 32 bit OS to see 4G. The limit is around 3.2G. In some

>>>> situations, I believe the Intel chip set is the limiting factor

>>>> regarding available memory.

>>>

>

April 13, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

I moved to 64 bit XP last year. I keep a 32 bit XP install on another

partition for those times when I need it, but that is very seldom now that I

have 32 bit Win2000 running in a VM. It's more of a curiosity for me then

anything else.

"John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

news:%23uLCTuYnIHA.1680@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

> You're pretty well stuck with what Windows XP 32-bit is telling you. There

> is no way around the problem other than moving to the 64-bit platform, or

> start yanking devices out of the box!

>

> John

>

> Zootal wrote:

>

>> I just booted to XP SP2 32 bit using the /nopae switch, and it still told

>> me I had 3.00 GB of ram. This is an Asus M2A32.MVP board, Phenom 9600,

>> 4GB of ram (four 1GB sticks). I'm open to playing with this if anyone has

>> any ideas as to what I could do to get it to see more memory in XP32. I

>> don't use XP32, and I have the partition backed up, so I'm not concerned

>> about corrupting it to the point of needing to be wiped and restored.

>>

>> XP64 tells me I have 4.00 GB ram.

>>

>> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>> news:O8AZPnWnIHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

>>

>>>Actually, if we are to believe Microsoft articles, to avoid driver

>>>compatibility issues they *do* throttle the available RAM to 3.12GB on

>>>Vista 32-bit SP1. I'm not 100% sure but I think that disabling DEP (nx

>>>AlwaysOff) may remove the limit and allow users to see a bit more RAM if

>>>the hardware is using less addresses than the imposed limit.

>>>

>>>I'm not sure how Windows 32-bit XP2 handles the driver compatibility

>>>issues. If you have an XP SP2 box with 4GB RAM Colin, you could do tests

>>>with and without the /nopae switch (DEP disabled or enabled) and let us

>>>know the results. Disabling PAE automatically disables DEP.

>>>

>>>John

>>>

>>>Colin Barnhorst wrote:

>>>

>>>>That is NOT something MS did at all. It is the BIOS on your mobo that

>>>>is

>>>>reserving the space. My systems show from 2.5GB to 3.5GB, depending on

>>>>the hardware on the system. There is simply no such thing as a 3.2GB

>>>>limit. The often quoted knowlegebase article that gives 3.12GB does so

>>>>as

>>>>an example in order to illustrate how the memory available for user

>>>>programs is calculated. It is no more valid for your system than a

>>>>TurboTax example would be for your real return.

>>>>

>>>><miso@sushi.com> wrote in message

>>>>news:d384203d-a73b-40b3-8c7e-de524ddeb5eb@m1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

>>>>

>>>>>On Apr 12, 3:34 pm, DevilsPGD <spam_narf_s...@crazyhat.net> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>>In message <40B437F3-D856-4A95-AB63-B93D7BCF5...@microsoft.com> Defjr

>>>>>>

>>>>>><De...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>if you have less than 4 gigs of memory(why that magic number keeps

>>>>>>>showing up is beyond me)

>>>>>>

>>>>>>2^32 is 4GB. If you're using a 32bit integer for address ranges, you

>>>>>>can't access memory above 4GB.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>If you're an operating system, this isn't a big deal, you just don't

>>>>>>offer access to memory above 4GB at all and life is good.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>Applications can usually survive as the operating system's virtual

>>>>>>memory subsystem already remaps memory requests.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>However, drivers don't have that luxury as they deal directly with

>>>>>>hardware.

>>>>>

>>>>>Just to be clear here, while 2**32 is 4G, MS didn't see fit to allow

>>>>>their 32 bit OS to see 4G. The limit is around 3.2G. In some

>>>>>situations, I believe the Intel chip set is the limiting factor

>>>>>regarding available memory.

>>>>

>>

April 13, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

It's not worth the trouble. XP 64 is my main OS on this box, XP32 is there

just in case.

"Colin Barnhorst" <c.barnhorst@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:7DE758E7-7C56-4DEE-B61A-022DD42CE091@microsoft.com...

> Check the manual for your mobo on your options for closing memory holes

> and such. You probably can gain a small amount but not the whole thing.

>

> "Zootal" <msnews@zootal.nospam.com> wrote in message

> news:%23L4Eu8XnIHA.2328@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>>I just booted to XP SP2 32 bit using the /nopae switch, and it still told

>>me I had 3.00 GB of ram. This is an Asus M2A32.MVP board, Phenom 9600, 4GB

>>of ram (four 1GB sticks). I'm open to playing with this if anyone has any

>>ideas as to what I could do to get it to see more memory in XP32. I don't

>>use XP32, and I have the partition backed up, so I'm not concerned about

>>corrupting it to the point of needing to be wiped and restored.

>>

>> XP64 tells me I have 4.00 GB ram.

>>

>> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>> news:O8AZPnWnIHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

>>> Actually, if we are to believe Microsoft articles, to avoid driver

>>> compatibility issues they *do* throttle the available RAM to 3.12GB on

>>> Vista 32-bit SP1. I'm not 100% sure but I think that disabling DEP (nx

>>> AlwaysOff) may remove the limit and allow users to see a bit more RAM if

>>> the hardware is using less addresses than the imposed limit.

>>>

>>> I'm not sure how Windows 32-bit XP2 handles the driver compatibility

>>> issues. If you have an XP SP2 box with 4GB RAM Colin, you could do

>>> tests

>>> with and without the /nopae switch (DEP disabled or enabled) and let us

>>> know the results. Disabling PAE automatically disables DEP.

>>>

>>> John

>>>

>>> Colin Barnhorst wrote:

>>>

>>>> That is NOT something MS did at all. It is the BIOS on your mobo that

>>>> is

>>>> reserving the space. My systems show from 2.5GB to 3.5GB, depending on

>>>> the hardware on the system. There is simply no such thing as a 3.2GB

>>>> limit. The often quoted knowlegebase article that gives 3.12GB does so

>>>> as

>>>> an example in order to illustrate how the memory available for user

>>>> programs is calculated. It is no more valid for your system than a

>>>> TurboTax example would be for your real return.

>>>>

>>>> <miso@sushi.com> wrote in message

>>>> news:d384203d-a73b-40b3-8c7e-de524ddeb5eb@m1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

>>>>

>>>>> On Apr 12, 3:34 pm, DevilsPGD <spam_narf_s...@crazyhat.net> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> In message <40B437F3-D856-4A95-AB63-B93D7BCF5...@microsoft.com> Defjr

>>>>>>

>>>>>> <De...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>>>>>> >if you have less than 4 gigs of memory(why that magic number keeps

>>>>>> >showing up is beyond me)

>>>>>>

>>>>>> 2^32 is 4GB. If you're using a 32bit integer for address ranges, you

>>>>>> can't access memory above 4GB.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> If you're an operating system, this isn't a big deal, you just don't

>>>>>> offer access to memory above 4GB at all and life is good.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Applications can usually survive as the operating system's virtual

>>>>>> memory subsystem already remaps memory requests.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> However, drivers don't have that luxury as they deal directly with

>>>>>> hardware.

>>>>>

>>>>> Just to be clear here, while 2**32 is 4G, MS didn't see fit to allow

>>>>> their 32 bit OS to see 4G. The limit is around 3.2G. In some

>>>>> situations, I believe the Intel chip set is the limiting factor

>>>>> regarding available memory.

>>>>

>>

>

April 13, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

So you are saying that the KB article is wrong?

John

Colin Barnhorst wrote:

> Dennis is correct.

>

> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

> news:%230GW6oZnIHA.3636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>

>> dennis wrote:

>>

>>> John John (MVP) wrote:

>>>

>>>> I strongly believe that the KB article is right and that for driver

>>>> compatibility reasons the RAM is limited to 3.12 GB.

>>>

>>> Driver compatibility is about not going above 4 GB, which is possible

>>> when Windows go into pae mode. So available RAM is 4 GB - memory

>>> mapped IO

>>

>> Even with PAE enabled 32-bit Windows workstation versions cannot

>> access RAM above the 4GB arena. I shall agree to disagree with your

>> interpretation of the KB article and hope that a Microsoft engineer

>> informs us of the facts.

>>

>> John

>

April 14, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

I agree with Dennis that the author did not keep qualifying with "for

example." It is clear from the variations of the amount of memory available

for user programs across different systems that there is no one magic number

like 3.12.

"John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

news:ujom03bnIHA.3636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

> So you are saying that the KB article is wrong?

>

> John

>

> Colin Barnhorst wrote:

>

>> Dennis is correct.

>>

>> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>> news:%230GW6oZnIHA.3636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>

>>> dennis wrote:

>>>

>>>> John John (MVP) wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> I strongly believe that the KB article is right and that for driver

>>>>> compatibility reasons the RAM is limited to 3.12 GB.

>>>>

>>>> Driver compatibility is about not going above 4 GB, which is possible

>>>> when Windows go into pae mode. So available RAM is 4 GB - memory mapped

>>>> IO

>>>

>>> Even with PAE enabled 32-bit Windows workstation versions cannot access

>>> RAM above the 4GB arena. I shall agree to disagree with your

>>> interpretation of the KB article and hope that a Microsoft engineer

>>> informs us of the facts.

>>>

>>> John

>>

April 14, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

I'm in the same boat. I have been on 64bit Windows now for three years.

Only my wife still uses 32bit Windows and she is about to buy a new laptop

with VHP x64. I still maintain a computer with 32bit XP and Vista for

testing purposes but I'd never go back to 32bits on my primary box. And of

course I use serveral virtual machines with 32bit guests.

"Zootal" <msnews@zootal.nospam.com> wrote in message

news:%23puDs0anIHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> It's not worth the trouble. XP 64 is my main OS on this box, XP32 is there

> just in case.

>

> "Colin Barnhorst" <c.barnhorst@comcast.net> wrote in message

> news:7DE758E7-7C56-4DEE-B61A-022DD42CE091@microsoft.com...

>> Check the manual for your mobo on your options for closing memory holes

>> and such. You probably can gain a small amount but not the whole thing.

>>

>> "Zootal" <msnews@zootal.nospam.com> wrote in message

>> news:%23L4Eu8XnIHA.2328@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>>>I just booted to XP SP2 32 bit using the /nopae switch, and it still told

>>>me I had 3.00 GB of ram. This is an Asus M2A32.MVP board, Phenom 9600,

>>>4GB of ram (four 1GB sticks). I'm open to playing with this if anyone has

>>>any ideas as to what I could do to get it to see more memory in XP32. I

>>>don't use XP32, and I have the partition backed up, so I'm not concerned

>>>about corrupting it to the point of needing to be wiped and restored.

>>>

>>> XP64 tells me I have 4.00 GB ram.

>>>

>>> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>>> news:O8AZPnWnIHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

>>>> Actually, if we are to believe Microsoft articles, to avoid driver

>>>> compatibility issues they *do* throttle the available RAM to 3.12GB on

>>>> Vista 32-bit SP1. I'm not 100% sure but I think that disabling DEP (nx

>>>> AlwaysOff) may remove the limit and allow users to see a bit more RAM

>>>> if

>>>> the hardware is using less addresses than the imposed limit.

>>>>

>>>> I'm not sure how Windows 32-bit XP2 handles the driver compatibility

>>>> issues. If you have an XP SP2 box with 4GB RAM Colin, you could do

>>>> tests

>>>> with and without the /nopae switch (DEP disabled or enabled) and let us

>>>> know the results. Disabling PAE automatically disables DEP.

>>>>

>>>> John

>>>>

>>>> Colin Barnhorst wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> That is NOT something MS did at all. It is the BIOS on your mobo that

>>>>> is

>>>>> reserving the space. My systems show from 2.5GB to 3.5GB, depending

>>>>> on

>>>>> the hardware on the system. There is simply no such thing as a 3.2GB

>>>>> limit. The often quoted knowlegebase article that gives 3.12GB does so

>>>>> as

>>>>> an example in order to illustrate how the memory available for user

>>>>> programs is calculated. It is no more valid for your system than a

>>>>> TurboTax example would be for your real return.

>>>>>

>>>>> <miso@sushi.com> wrote in message

>>>>> news:d384203d-a73b-40b3-8c7e-de524ddeb5eb@m1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

>>>>>

>>>>>> On Apr 12, 3:34 pm, DevilsPGD <spam_narf_s...@crazyhat.net> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> In message <40B437F3-D856-4A95-AB63-B93D7BCF5...@microsoft.com>

>>>>>>> Defjr

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> <De...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>>>>>>> >if you have less than 4 gigs of memory(why that magic number keeps

>>>>>>> >showing up is beyond me)

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> 2^32 is 4GB. If you're using a 32bit integer for address ranges,

>>>>>>> you

>>>>>>> can't access memory above 4GB.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> If you're an operating system, this isn't a big deal, you just don't

>>>>>>> offer access to memory above 4GB at all and life is good.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Applications can usually survive as the operating system's virtual

>>>>>>> memory subsystem already remaps memory requests.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> However, drivers don't have that luxury as they deal directly with

>>>>>>> hardware.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Just to be clear here, while 2**32 is 4G, MS didn't see fit to allow

>>>>>> their 32 bit OS to see 4G. The limit is around 3.2G. In some

>>>>>> situations, I believe the Intel chip set is the limiting factor

>>>>>> regarding available memory.

>>>>>

>>>

>>

>

April 14, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

This is an interesting conundrum, to say the least. The issue of not

being able to "see" all the 4GB of RAM on 32-bit Windows version is well

known and never has it been suggested that any Windows NT 32-bit version

limits RAM to *anything* below 4GB, it has always been known that after

the BIOS and hardware have their say that what ever was left over was

what Windows 32-bit would see and use. Never, ever, has Microsoft said

that any of their 32-bit operating systems *limit* RAM to any particular

value under the 4GB barrier.

Now, why would Microsoft even mention the word "limit" when explaining

the problem? If there are no imposed limits why even talk about it? It

makes no sense at all, if what you and dennis say is true then whoever

wrote the KB article was half asleep when he or she wrote it and the

guys who reviewed it before publishing it were sleepwalking! The

article *clearly* states that there is an imposed limit on Vista,

otherwise, as I said earlier, why even mention the word limits in the

article?

John

Colin Barnhorst wrote:

> I agree with Dennis that the author did not keep qualifying with "for

> example." It is clear from the variations of the amount of memory

> available for user programs across different systems that there is no

> one magic number like 3.12.

>

> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

> news:ujom03bnIHA.3636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>

>> So you are saying that the KB article is wrong?

>>

>> John

>>

>> Colin Barnhorst wrote:

>>

>>> Dennis is correct.

>>>

>>> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>>> news:%230GW6oZnIHA.3636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>>

>>>> dennis wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> John John (MVP) wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> I strongly believe that the KB article is right and that for

>>>>>> driver compatibility reasons the RAM is limited to 3.12 GB.

>>>>>

>>>>> Driver compatibility is about not going above 4 GB, which is

>>>>> possible when Windows go into pae mode. So available RAM is 4 GB -

>>>>> memory mapped IO

>>>>

>>>> Even with PAE enabled 32-bit Windows workstation versions cannot

>>>> access RAM above the 4GB arena. I shall agree to disagree with your

>>>> interpretation of the KB article and hope that a Microsoft engineer

>>>> informs us of the facts.

>>>>

>>>> John

>>>

April 14, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

I think what made the biggest difference for me was not so much that I

stepped up to a 64 bit OS, but that I went from a pentium 4 to a phenom

9600. It may not be as fast as the Intel core microarchitecture, but the

pentium 4 is a very inefficient processor (which is why Intel finally

abandoned it and why AMD kicked Intels butt for so long). 4 cores makes a

huge difference for me. One of these days I'll actually get around to

profiling my common tasks under 32 bit XP versus 64 bit XP. I made such a

huge cpu jump when I went to 64 bits, that I don't have anything to compare

against. And yeah, those VMs are great!

"Colin Barnhorst" <c.barnhorst@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:A787049F-2662-4198-8638-E67FB0216F03@microsoft.com...

> I'm in the same boat. I have been on 64bit Windows now for three years.

> Only my wife still uses 32bit Windows and she is about to buy a new laptop

> with VHP x64. I still maintain a computer with 32bit XP and Vista for

> testing purposes but I'd never go back to 32bits on my primary box. And

> of course I use serveral virtual machines with 32bit guests.

>

> "Zootal" <msnews@zootal.nospam.com> wrote in message

> news:%23puDs0anIHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>> It's not worth the trouble. XP 64 is my main OS on this box, XP32 is

>> there just in case.

>>

>> "Colin Barnhorst" <c.barnhorst@comcast.net> wrote in message

>> news:7DE758E7-7C56-4DEE-B61A-022DD42CE091@microsoft.com...

>>> Check the manual for your mobo on your options for closing memory holes

>>> and such. You probably can gain a small amount but not the whole thing.

>>>

>>> "Zootal" <msnews@zootal.nospam.com> wrote in message

>>> news:%23L4Eu8XnIHA.2328@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>>>>I just booted to XP SP2 32 bit using the /nopae switch, and it still

>>>>told me I had 3.00 GB of ram. This is an Asus M2A32.MVP board, Phenom

>>>>9600, 4GB of ram (four 1GB sticks). I'm open to playing with this if

>>>>anyone has any ideas as to what I could do to get it to see more memory

>>>>in XP32. I don't use XP32, and I have the partition backed up, so I'm

>>>>not concerned about corrupting it to the point of needing to be wiped

>>>>and restored.

>>>>

>>>> XP64 tells me I have 4.00 GB ram.

>>>>

>>>> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>>>> news:O8AZPnWnIHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

>>>>> Actually, if we are to believe Microsoft articles, to avoid driver

>>>>> compatibility issues they *do* throttle the available RAM to 3.12GB on

>>>>> Vista 32-bit SP1. I'm not 100% sure but I think that disabling DEP

>>>>> (nx

>>>>> AlwaysOff) may remove the limit and allow users to see a bit more RAM

>>>>> if

>>>>> the hardware is using less addresses than the imposed limit.

>>>>>

>>>>> I'm not sure how Windows 32-bit XP2 handles the driver compatibility

>>>>> issues. If you have an XP SP2 box with 4GB RAM Colin, you could do

>>>>> tests

>>>>> with and without the /nopae switch (DEP disabled or enabled) and let

>>>>> us

>>>>> know the results. Disabling PAE automatically disables DEP.

>>>>>

>>>>> John

>>>>>

>>>>> Colin Barnhorst wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> That is NOT something MS did at all. It is the BIOS on your mobo

>>>>>> that is

>>>>>> reserving the space. My systems show from 2.5GB to 3.5GB, depending

>>>>>> on

>>>>>> the hardware on the system. There is simply no such thing as a 3.2GB

>>>>>> limit. The often quoted knowlegebase article that gives 3.12GB does

>>>>>> so as

>>>>>> an example in order to illustrate how the memory available for user

>>>>>> programs is calculated. It is no more valid for your system than a

>>>>>> TurboTax example would be for your real return.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> <miso@sushi.com> wrote in message

>>>>>> news:d384203d-a73b-40b3-8c7e-de524ddeb5eb@m1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 3:34 pm, DevilsPGD <spam_narf_s...@crazyhat.net> wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> In message <40B437F3-D856-4A95-AB63-B93D7BCF5...@microsoft.com>

>>>>>>>> Defjr

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> <De...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>> >if you have less than 4 gigs of memory(why that magic number keeps

>>>>>>>> >showing up is beyond me)

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> 2^32 is 4GB. If you're using a 32bit integer for address ranges,

>>>>>>>> you

>>>>>>>> can't access memory above 4GB.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> If you're an operating system, this isn't a big deal, you just

>>>>>>>> don't

>>>>>>>> offer access to memory above 4GB at all and life is good.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Applications can usually survive as the operating system's virtual

>>>>>>>> memory subsystem already remaps memory requests.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> However, drivers don't have that luxury as they deal directly with

>>>>>>>> hardware.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Just to be clear here, while 2**32 is 4G, MS didn't see fit to allow

>>>>>>> their 32 bit OS to see 4G. The limit is around 3.2G. In some

>>>>>>> situations, I believe the Intel chip set is the limiting factor

>>>>>>> regarding available memory.

>>>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>

>

April 14, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

It would not be the first KB to have mistatements. In fact they pop up

often. For example, KB 932795, "Installation choices for 64-bit consumer

versions of Windows Vista" contains the instruction for XP Pro x64 users to

first download and install the Windows Vista Upgrade Advisor tool. Problem?

Of course. The tool, as it says on the download details page, only runs on

32bit operating systems;

"The Upgrade Advisor works with 32-bit versions of Windows XP and Windows

Vista."

Further on in the same KB there is advice for users of 32bit Vista to

uninstall 32bit Vista and install XP before upgrading to Vista 64bit. Now I

ask you, where is the purchaser of a first computer that has bought this

first computer with 32bit Vista preinstalled supposed to get this XP?

There is incorrect and ill-considered advice like this throughout the KBs.

"John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

news:O415I6cnIHA.5692@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> This is an interesting conundrum, to say the least. The issue of not

> being able to "see" all the 4GB of RAM on 32-bit Windows version is well

> known and never has it been suggested that any Windows NT 32-bit version

> limits RAM to *anything* below 4GB, it has always been known that after

> the BIOS and hardware have their say that what ever was left over was what

> Windows 32-bit would see and use. Never, ever, has Microsoft said that

> any of their 32-bit operating systems *limit* RAM to any particular value

> under the 4GB barrier.

>

> Now, why would Microsoft even mention the word "limit" when explaining the

> problem? If there are no imposed limits why even talk about it? It makes

> no sense at all, if what you and dennis say is true then whoever wrote the

> KB article was half asleep when he or she wrote it and the guys who

> reviewed it before publishing it were sleepwalking! The article *clearly*

> states that there is an imposed limit on Vista, otherwise, as I said

> earlier, why even mention the word limits in the article?

>

> John

>

> Colin Barnhorst wrote:

>

>> I agree with Dennis that the author did not keep qualifying with "for

>> example." It is clear from the variations of the amount of memory

>> available for user programs across different systems that there is no one

>> magic number like 3.12.

>>

>> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>> news:ujom03bnIHA.3636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>

>>> So you are saying that the KB article is wrong?

>>>

>>> John

>>>

>>> Colin Barnhorst wrote:

>>>

>>>> Dennis is correct.

>>>>

>>>> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>>>> news:%230GW6oZnIHA.3636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>>>

>>>>> dennis wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> John John (MVP) wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I strongly believe that the KB article is right and that for driver

>>>>>>> compatibility reasons the RAM is limited to 3.12 GB.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Driver compatibility is about not going above 4 GB, which is possible

>>>>>> when Windows go into pae mode. So available RAM is 4 GB - memory

>>>>>> mapped IO

>>>>>

>>>>> Even with PAE enabled 32-bit Windows workstation versions cannot

>>>>> access RAM above the 4GB arena. I shall agree to disagree with your

>>>>> interpretation of the KB article and hope that a Microsoft engineer

>>>>> informs us of the facts.

>>>>>

>>>>> John

>>>>

April 14, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

John John (MVP) wrote:

> Now, why would Microsoft even mention the word "limit" when explaining

> the problem? If there are no imposed limits why even talk about it?

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/888137

"To reduce driver compatibility issues, Windows Vista and Windows XP

Service Pack 2 include hardware abstraction layer (HAL) changes that

mimic the 32-bit HAL DMA behavior. The modified HAL grants unlimited map

registers when the computer is running in PAE mode. Additionally, the

kernel memory manager ignores any physical address that is more than 4 GB"

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/platform/server/PAE/pae_os.mspx

"4 GB of physical RAM" before SP2

vs "4 GB of physical address space" in SP2

April 14, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

I know all about that and what PAE is, we aren't talking about accessing

RAM above 4GB. No Windows 32-bit workstation version ever gave access

to RAM above the 4GB barrier, even with PAE enabled. The other article

clearly states that SP1 on Vista imposes a limit at 3.12GB. This 3.12

"limit" is another twist throw in with SP1.

John

dennis wrote:

> John John (MVP) wrote:

>

>> Now, why would Microsoft even mention the word "limit" when explaining

>> the problem? If there are no imposed limits why even talk about it?

>

> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/888137

>

> "To reduce driver compatibility issues, Windows Vista and Windows XP

> Service Pack 2 include hardware abstraction layer (HAL) changes that

> mimic the 32-bit HAL DMA behavior. The modified HAL grants unlimited map

> registers when the computer is running in PAE mode. Additionally, the

> kernel memory manager ignores any physical address that is more than 4 GB"

>

> http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/platform/server/PAE/pae_os.mspx

>

> "4 GB of physical RAM" before SP2

> vs "4 GB of physical address space" in SP2

April 14, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

I know that the MS KB has errors and misstatements, it's not that

unusual. As for the article in question it isn't a simple misstatement,

if you are right the article contains a glaring error. The statement

made in that article is one that cannot be misinterpreted and one that

has never before been made, in no uncertain terms it states that there

is a specifically imposed limit under the 4GB barrier.

John

Colin Barnhorst wrote:

> It would not be the first KB to have mistatements. In fact they pop up

> often. For example, KB 932795, "Installation choices for 64-bit

> consumer versions of Windows Vista" contains the instruction for XP Pro

> x64 users to first download and install the Windows Vista Upgrade

> Advisor tool. Problem? Of course. The tool, as it says on the download

> details page, only runs on 32bit operating systems;

>

> "The Upgrade Advisor works with 32-bit versions of Windows XP and

> Windows Vista."

>

> Further on in the same KB there is advice for users of 32bit Vista to

> uninstall 32bit Vista and install XP before upgrading to Vista 64bit.

> Now I ask you, where is the purchaser of a first computer that has

> bought this first computer with 32bit Vista preinstalled supposed to get

> this XP?

>

> There is incorrect and ill-considered advice like this throughout the KBs.

>

> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

> news:O415I6cnIHA.5692@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>

>> This is an interesting conundrum, to say the least. The issue of not

>> being able to "see" all the 4GB of RAM on 32-bit Windows version is

>> well known and never has it been suggested that any Windows NT 32-bit

>> version limits RAM to *anything* below 4GB, it has always been known

>> that after the BIOS and hardware have their say that what ever was

>> left over was what Windows 32-bit would see and use. Never, ever,

>> has Microsoft said that any of their 32-bit operating systems *limit*

>> RAM to any particular value under the 4GB barrier.

>>

>> Now, why would Microsoft even mention the word "limit" when explaining

>> the problem? If there are no imposed limits why even talk about it?

>> It makes no sense at all, if what you and dennis say is true then

>> whoever wrote the KB article was half asleep when he or she wrote it

>> and the guys who reviewed it before publishing it were sleepwalking!

>> The article *clearly* states that there is an imposed limit on Vista,

>> otherwise, as I said earlier, why even mention the word limits in the

>> article?

>>

>> John

>>

>> Colin Barnhorst wrote:

>>

>>> I agree with Dennis that the author did not keep qualifying with "for

>>> example." It is clear from the variations of the amount of memory

>>> available for user programs across different systems that there is no

>>> one magic number like 3.12.

>>>

>>> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>>> news:ujom03bnIHA.3636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>>

>>>> So you are saying that the KB article is wrong?

>>>>

>>>> John

>>>>

>>>> Colin Barnhorst wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> Dennis is correct.

>>>>>

>>>>> "John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>>>>> news:%230GW6oZnIHA.3636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>>>>

>>>>>> dennis wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> John John (MVP) wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I strongly believe that the KB article is right and that for

>>>>>>>> driver compatibility reasons the RAM is limited to 3.12 GB.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Driver compatibility is about not going above 4 GB, which is

>>>>>>> possible when Windows go into pae mode. So available RAM is 4 GB

>>>>>>> - memory mapped IO

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Even with PAE enabled 32-bit Windows workstation versions cannot

>>>>>> access RAM above the 4GB arena. I shall agree to disagree with

>>>>>> your interpretation of the KB article and hope that a Microsoft

>>>>>> engineer informs us of the facts.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> John

>>>>>

>

April 14, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

John John (MVP) wrote:

> I know all about that and what PAE is, we aren't talking about accessing

> RAM above 4GB. No Windows 32-bit workstation version ever gave access

> to RAM above the 4GB barrier, even with PAE enabled. The other article

> clearly states that SP1 on Vista imposes a limit at 3.12GB. This 3.12

> "limit" is another twist throw in with SP1.

Take notice here:

"4 GB of physical RAM" before SP2

vs "4 GB of physical address space" in SP2

Before SP2 XP did allow addresses above 4G

April 14, 2008

RE: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

Defjr <Defjr@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

> On the Vista compatibility page of this website it lists the

> Hauppauge PVR150MCE/ PVR500MCE tuner as Compliant, and works with

> 64 bit, and it does.....if you have less than 4 gigs of memory(why

> that magic number keeps showing up is beyond me). Hauppauge says

> they will not be looking into the problem anytime soon, as they

> are working on their "new" product line, but has offered to RMA

> the card for a new model that will work(all beit a single tuner

> model).

One last thing, I have an AMD processor and it features "Cool & Quiet"

technology. What this does is "throttle back" the CPU and the CPU fan

when the computer is under light load.

Hauppauge cards WILL NOT work if Cool & Quiet is enabled in the BIOS

and the Cool & Quiet software is installed.

Look for anything similar in your BIOS or software, anything that

allows the Intel CPU to slow down if full power isn't needed. IF Intel

has anything similar disable/uninstall/remove it and see if the tuner

card will start working.

--

XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups

The Usenet Improvement Project:

http://improve-usenet.org

April 15, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

dennis wrote:

> John John (MVP) wrote:

>

>> I know all about that and what PAE is, we aren't talking about

>> accessing RAM above 4GB. No Windows 32-bit workstation version ever

>> gave access to RAM above the 4GB barrier, even with PAE enabled. The

>> other article clearly states that SP1 on Vista imposes a limit at

>> 3.12GB. This 3.12 "limit" is another twist throw in with SP1.

>

> Take notice here:

>

> "4 GB of physical RAM" before SP2

> vs "4 GB of physical address space" in SP2

>

> Before SP2 XP did allow addresses above 4G

No it did not, it never did.

John

April 15, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

John John (MVP) wrote:

>> Take notice here:

>>

>> "4 GB of physical RAM" before SP2

>> vs "4 GB of physical address space" in SP2

>>

>> Before SP2 XP did allow addresses above 4G

>

> No it did not, it never did.

Why all the fuss then, about the kernel in sp2 is ignoring addresses

above 4 GB (as stated in those KBs)?

And there is a big difference between RAM and address space.

April 15, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

In message <9F8B03E6-47CD-4051-8B3D-E99AAB7B6098@microsoft.com> "Colin

Barnhorst" <c.barnhorst@comcast.net> wrote:

>More like 16TB, but x64 Windows is limited to 128GB at this time.

>

>See the table in http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778.aspx.

>

>Notice that there are edition specific limits for both client and server

>editions. It can be very confusing.

16TB where?

My understanding is that current desktop chipsets typically expose

36-bits (64GB) of addressable physical address space, and that

theoretically we'll have 64-bits of address space (16 exabytes)

Obviously you're limited to the lessor of what your hardware can offer,

what your operating system can offer, and what your budget can offer.

April 15, 2008

Re: When can I use all 8gigs of my memory MS???

The page file limit for 64bit Windows is 16TB. The kernel mode virtual

address space is 8TB so I assume the other 8TB is the user mode virtual

address space. Charlie Russel goes over this in one of his papers.

Notice in the KB under the 32bit column that there is no reference to 3.12GB

anywhere. The reference is always to 4GB. The downward adjustments to 4GB

that users see on their system properties pages are all due to BIOS mappings

and such and not Windows itself.

This whole thing will just get worse as users upgrade to Vista SP1 and begin

seeing 4GB reported and jump to conclusions, not realizing that only the

object being reported has changed, not the amount of memory available to the

user (which is still reported as before when the user runs winver). I

recommended to MS that they put both numbers on the system properties page.

Personally I wish they had left it alone. Now it is really going to be

confusing.

"DevilsPGD" <spam_narf_spam@crazyhat.net> wrote in message

news:p9180414l3ajgd3makrrpvkrdtbhcp2jl5@4ax.com...

> In message <9F8B03E6-47CD-4051-8B3D-E99AAB7B6098@microsoft.com> "Colin

> Barnhorst" <c.barnhorst@comcast.net> wrote:

>

>>More like 16TB, but x64 Windows is limited to 128GB at this time.

>>

>>See the table in http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778.aspx.

>>

>>Notice that there are edition specific limits for both client and server

>>editions. It can be very confusing.

>

> 16TB where?

>

> My understanding is that current desktop chipsets typically expose

> 36-bits (64GB) of addressable physical address space, and that

> theoretically we'll have 64-bits of address space (16 exabytes)

>

> Obviously you're limited to the lessor of what your hardware can offer,

> what your operating system can offer, and what your budget can offer.

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