help4me

I agree :)

It could be that you have "Mail Fetcher "enabled to get your mail from your yahoo account? Here is an article that explains more. http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=21288&ctx=sibling

I find the Madison Square Garden commentary quite humorous. :D

I think you are right that we can't compare based upon national standards. In my mind, I was thinking more of each nation having a set of standards when I said that. But actualy, I hate the thought of some group making a global standard but that's what would be required. About national standards in the USA, I was not aware of any standard other than the SATs that high school kids take for evaluating their skills before entering college. If we already have national standards, where can we go to see the results? In any case, it would be very interesting to have a series of computer generated tests that followed a certain set of rules for difficulty for various grade levels and generated a unique test for each individual, so that people could not cheat by having answers for the test. I'd like to see how Americans compared to other countires in areas like math or science where language is not a factor. ---pete--- The national testing I refer to for elementary age kids used to be called Iowa Basics. Now I think they use MAP testing. I'll research that and get back to you and also try and find where the public can take a look at national test scores. For the higher level you are correct in SAT's and ACT's. I myself only took the ACT test. Didn't do great (only a 26. I think 33 is perfect) but my score was high enough to win me a full scholarship to the state college of my choice. As for global standards... I agree. Bad idea. But how do we make it possible to compare nation to nation when the rules are different? Part of why America is screaming that our schools are inadequate are because the government compares us to nations with high test scores. But their test scores are high in part because only certain kids are allowed to go to school. More later... I am off to apply for a new job. Wish me luck ;) I need this job desperately.

Hmmmm.... guess you lose... I have blue eyes, but I'm not a blonde. ;)

A quote I got in an email that I liked...

Seth... get back here you (grabs Seth by the ear and pulls him back to the discussion :P) Advanced.... how I wish we could go back in time when kids understood the value of things and parents were allowed to have some control over things. But because times are different, we must first learn to work within a flawed system before we can change it. Got any ideas? JEB.... rigging a fight... whatever. You just don't want to sleep on the couch ;) Wolfman.... carry on my good man... carry on :D Pete... I enjoy discussing things with you. Can't wait to read your next post :)

Welcome to FPCH kilster. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Greetings New. Welcome to FPCH :)

LMAO!!!! :D :D :D

It all ties into having some national standards and tests for each grade level for such basics as math, reading, spelling, writing, english grammar, etc.. Once you have those national standards you could compare our standards against the standards of any other nation to see how we compare. ---pete--- And we currently have national standards. Yet we still can not adequately compare nation to nation because of the laws governing who may and may not attend school in some countries. If all nations allowed all children to attend school regardless of test scores... then by all means we could compare nation to nation. However this is not the case, and such a comparison would be unfair and the results would not be valid results, because the rules are different nation to nation.

Calling American schools sub-standard compared to other countries is unfair considering how some countries do not allow all children to go to school. Some places only allow the best of the best to attend. Therefore their national test scores are going to be higher than American schools. Now if you limit your comparison to a few countries that have a similar education structure to that of the United States, then ok... I might agree with you. Secondly, there must be some sort of national conformity in order for children to be able to transfer from state to state. A good example of this is military families that may move several times within a school year. Also take a look at colleges and how hard it is to transfer credits from college to college. The private college in this town accepts most credits from other colleges, but many of their credits do not transfer out. So if a college student has to transfer, they almost have to start their education over. So how do we reach a compromise and allow schools freedom yet enough similarities that education is transferable?

The reason is because the kids were trying to imitate speaking Spanish. While it's a normal kid thing to do... and there is really nothing wrong with them doing that... in a way it is a bit rude. SO rather than them jabber nonsense words pretending to speak Spanish... I threw in some real Spanish words. Mainly because the kids brought it up. If the kids bring it up, I talk about it. Or if we are in our multi-cultural week of themes. It's not something I purposely teach the kids, because I agree that this is America and we speak English here. Now that might change if we had quite a few bilingual students, in which it would only be fair to incorporate their family traditions and culture into our studies, as I would for any family that wished to contribute ideas to the lesson plans. Of course we do have a process through which that is done, so as not to offend any other family, nor neglect our state and federal mandates. If the kids bring up Batman.. then we talk about Batman, which in turn leads to a discussion and learning about bats. As teachers we need to respond to almost every idea the kids bring up, as long as we do so in a suitable and appropriate fashion.

Yes, we do get the parents involved in teaching. Parents in fact are supposed to suggest ideas for lesson plans and so on. But most of them do not. At the first parent teacher conference, I go over what I have observed of the child, what they can do, and areas that I think the child needs to work on in order the meet federal standards. Then I ask the parent what their goals are for their child, what do they want them to learn this year. So on and so forth. When a parent first enrolls their chld they fill out several forms that state what the parent wants their child to learn and things that the parent absolutely does not want their child to be exposed to, and this gives the teachers a base idea of where to start. As a parent and a teacher, I understand how important it is to have parent input on each child's education. In that respect we agree Pete. Parents should be active in their child's education, and teachers need to respect that and incorporate parent's ideas as much as possible. Previously you had asked about the formal testing we use. Here are a couple of links. This is the homepage of Brigance http://www.curriculumassociates.com/products/detail.asp?title=BrigScreenPre&Type=SCH&CustID=164637532701271018203 Here is a wiki link to the Denver Scale which includes a link to Denver's home page if you scroll down the page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Scale I teach in a preschool... children ages 3-5.

Welcome Debbie :) Glad to know that FPCH has been helpful.

Pete... I will respond to your other posts later on today. :)

I'll do the best I can to explain. The first example... We have an alphabet chart. For each letter there are about six picture cards with a picture of something that starts with that letter. On the back of the card is the word. (i.e. A has a card with a pic of an apple and on the back of the card is the word apple). So... on the first day that I introduce a letter... we go over the sounds that letter makes and then I use the letter's cards. First I describe the picture without showing it to see if they can use their skills to guess what the picture is from the clues I give. Then I over emphasize the beginning sound and ask what letter does the picture start with. Then I show them the back of the card with the picture's word. We go over that... A-P-P-L-E spells apple. The reason I do this is not to teach them that A-P-P-L-E spells apple but that groups of letters = words. I am trying to convey the mechanics of language. How letters work together to form words. The next day... we go over the letter again and the cards again. This time I show only the back of the card. I spell the word. And my kids tell me what word I spelled. They can do this not by knowing what word I spelled but rather by the shape of the card. The apple card looks like an apple. The point is not to teach them how to spell apple. The point is to teach them that certain letters put together = something specific. That's it. I'm not suppose to do this anymore because I am "teaching these kids phonics and that is above their level. That is 1st and 2nd grade concepts and way too advanced for preschoolers. " No... it isn't. Now if I gave them a spelling test... yeah... that's too much. I know my kids and what they can and can not deal with. I know how to set the bar just high enough to keep them challenged but not so high they can't reach for it. Second... many of our preschoolers watch the kiddie show "Dora the Explorer." Dora is bilingual. So many of our kids try to imitate speaking Spanish like Dora. So... to go with that, I began teaching colors to the kids.... in Spanish. Just a few. And not sit and drill until they know either. We were talking about who had on what color shirt that day... and so I threw in The Spanish name for the color as well. It is proven that young kids are the perfect age to learn a new language. I have studied this in college so it's not just a personal observation. Anyway, so we were talking about colors. So I'd say, "Joe has on what color shirt?" They'd tell me. Then I'd say, "Right, a white shirt. Dora would say that Joe has on a "blanco" shirt. Blanco is the Spanish word for white." And then we'd move on. Just a tid bit of information tossed in here and there. Later the same day kids were asking me what Dora would call various colors. So I went with it. They asked me a question, so I'll do my best to answer it. They are seeking knowledge. I was told by my superiors that that teaching Spanish was not appropriate for preschool age children. It will do nothing but confuse them because they don't yet have a firm grasp on the English words for colors and to throw in Spanish will confuse them. BULL!!! First you have to find out what the kids know. Then you build from there. If they don't know colors... then no... I shouldn't be teaching them Spanish colors. I agree there. This is why I am not teaching the Spanish for shapes, or letters. Because they don't yet have a firm hold on the English. And I use Spanish as an example. I also will throw in other languages. But... to conform... I stopped the Spanish. That was two months ago, and do you know that 95% of my kids can still tell me the Spanish for a few colors. Both of the examples were shot down by the "head office." My reasoning for doing what I do is not to teach the kids that A-P-P-L-E spells apple, but rather that letters form words. I don't throw in Spanish so that the kids learn to speak Spanish, but rather that there is more than one way to do things. Am I wrong? I ask this seriously. I am asking for honest opinions. Did I do wrong?

My only fear... this is an election year. Each party is going to want to look it's spiffy best to the voter. Good ideas have a way of getting lost in loop holes, or taken away altogether after the votes have been counted.

Actually I agree with you Randy (and you crack me up ^^^:) ). Seems like there isn't much that anyone can do with an old computer and forget trying to teach anyone anything new. The average computer user wants the easy thing (which windows is one of those "any idiot can do it" type of things discussed in another thread. And make note... I am a windows user... so no one need take offense to my idiot statement ;) ) One possible option... what about a trade school? I know some mechanic classes will take old cars and such for their students to practice on, and/or rebuild. Then the school/class can sell the car to help fund the mechanic program. Perhaps a tech class or such might take them for their students to work on.

LOL... no of course not ;) However, I am very passionate about this topic because I am in the middle of it. I am a teacher that understands what true teaching is all about, but because of issues that have been brought up in this thread, I can't effectively do my job in a manner that coincides with my value system. Finally I have a way to voice my opinion and someone is actually listening. There is a problem with today's school systems, and I don't know how to begin to fix it. I see and feel that our kids are on the losing end of this situation... and yet I can't do anything about it. If I continue to teach the way I do and refuse to conform to the way my bosses want me to, then I'll be out of a job. Then who will fight for our kids? I will just be replaced by a "yes sir" employee. If I give a little and conform a bit, then I might have a chance to teach the right way when no one is looking. However... once you breech your own standards... then it's not so hard for them to force you to compromise again. When do I say enough is enough? And then... what happens to the kids? Who's going to be there for them? Who's going to be their voice? I'm not a JUST a teacher.... I am a CHILD ADVOCATE. (appropriate super-hero music plays here ;) )

America has done just that.... create tests.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind The second statement in the last paragraph is the exact flaw that we are seeing with the NCLB law. Teachers teach to the test because if they don't... they get in trouble. Their ability to teach is put into question. Second, schools lose money if the students don't "perform" to standard. This isn't REAL teaching. Get the kids to give the right answer and be done with it. That's all they want... right answers. Not actual learning.. but rather the ability to give the correct answer on demand. It's a money game and I have seen it in play countless times. I myself am encouraged to look over the formal tests given to our preschoolers. The idea looks good on paper Pete... but in reality... it's nothing but garbage. What standards should America go by? Foreign schools? Let me tell you this... American kids are every bit as smart as kids anywhere else, but the standardized test scores don't show it. Why is that? I'll tell you why. Because here in America, every child gets to go to school. Everyone has the chance for higher education. If you want to go to college... then go. But it's not like that in some other countries. Some places(and no I am not going to tell you where), if your scores aren't good enough... then you are not allowed to continue your education. Only the best of the best get to go to school. So their test scores are going to be wonderful. But we allow EVERYONE to go to school here. So our scores are going to look like American kids are stupid. Not the case at all. So here in is the problem..... everyone gets to go to school. But there has to be some level of achievement. So where do we set that bar? Who decides? What is fair? How about the kids that really tries to do his best in school, but his grades are still about average. That kid just seems to struggle more than other kids. Is it the teacher's fault? Should her ability come into question? Is every child going to be a straight A student? Is the teacher expected to churn out straight A students? What about Einstein? Did you know he failed math? Yet he is considered one of the most intelligent thinkers of the 20th century. What would have happened to him under standardized tests? Furthermore... what the heck do tests show anyway? That a student knows the right answer. That's it. That's all it shows. It does not convey if the student can USE that information he/she has learned. Omega illustrated that point in one of his posts. His friend has the degree, but hasn't got the smarts to use what he has learned, or how to learn what he needs to know to do his job. There is no fair way to set standards because no two children learn the same way. No two children process information the same way. Yes we need to measure progress, but how does a written test show that? Written tests show only how smart you are on paper. It does not measure intelligence at all, because true intelligence is more than facts and figures filled away in your brain. Tests do nothing more than placate the voter and give the politicians an out claiming that they are doing something to insure that American children are getting a proper education. But teachers and school leaders know this is hogwash. But if they don't show the results on paper... then they lose funding, and possibly their job. So more and more teachers are teaching to the test. It no longer matters if a child knows why 2+2=4, so long as they answer 4. I am not bashing teachers saying that they are giving up and sacrificing kids' education to keep their jobs. Teachers do the best they can. But in order for them to keep trying... they have to show results or all is lost. I understand why the system is what it is. There had to be accountability and some way to make sure that schools have "qualified teaching professionals that are capable and effective." But, with the current system, teachers are expected to make silk purses out of sows ears. Not every child is going to be able to be a rocket scientist. But with the NCLB act, schools had better show that every child can meet those standards. And in order to do that...the standards had better be low enough that every child can achieve those levels. As the saying goes, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. So the load you expect that chain to haul better not be more than what the weakest link can handle.

Welcome to FPCH :)

I'm sure you will find some of the knowledge you seek right here at FPCH. Welcome and glad to have you here :)

Oooooo I've been waiting for this topic to surface ;) Unfortunately I have to go to work. But I will return soon to address this. Pete you have just made my day :)

Welcome to FPCH Alison :)